Bringing Back Full Elementalists

[Synthesis]

Maybe Wizturbo just isn't interested in ranger roleplay? *shock*

Different players like different kinds of roles. That's how it is and always will be.

You can do just about whatever the hell you want to do with a ranger, man, especially with the extended subguilds.  Like...honestly.  Cue Bubba Gump:  'rinth rangers, desert rangers, GMH rangers, ranger crafters, Byn rangers, militia rangers, 'gicker rangers, ranger spies, ranger bards, ranger concubines, ranger beggars, ranger brawlers, ranger sorcs....

Just because you're a ranger doesn't mean you have to go out and shoot at turaals until you can OHK noobs and yell BOOM HEADSHOT.

[Akaramu]

That's just so untrue unless we get into the 'you can roleplay anything' argument. But then it applies to ALL guilds.

[Feco]

I'm with Synth, here.  Presumably this is one of the motivations to change the guild/class structure -- rangers can do basically anything (and they do it pretty well).

[Lizzie]

Another possibility, instead of bringing back full elementalists: introduce a "pick two" as a main class (we're not calling them guilds anymore, kids!), plus a sub-class beneath or equal to your current karma level (or whatever they'll be turning that into, since they're working on it currently).

So - for example, using the actual official docs:
I want to be primarily a mage, and secondarily someone who makes pretty clothing (typical yes, but this is an example so I'm keeping it simple). I have the karma to play a rukkian and a master-craft subclass.

Since my character will be primarily a city-based gemmed PC, only going out when she has other gemmed to go with, I'll forego the "empowerment" option and pick "creation" and "protection" options. That will be my primary class: creation/protection Rukkian, with master tailor subclass.

My character will get listen, capped at novice. I feel EVERYONE in Armageddon should have at least a chance of overhearing people at the next table in the same room. Never understood why it wasn't possible, but that's how I feel.

Everything else, she'd get however we currently have it.

My next character I want to be primarily someone who spends a lot of time outdoors, and has a strong affinity with whira. So here's my pic for her:

Travel and Illusion for the main class options.
I'd probably pick hunter as a normal subclass, for the skinning and archery skills. Outdoorsman if I could pick an extended subclass. Seems like that'd be the most appropriate for a world-wandering whiran. Some of the skills would overlap or be redundant but the others would make for a pretty interesting combination I think.

Anyway - that's my thoughts on how to give us magicker-lovers more of what floats our boat, while at the same time giving the "magickers are OP" camp less to worry about.

[nauta]

Another possibility, instead of bringing back full elementalists: introduce a "pick two" as a main class ... plus a sub-class beneath or equal to your current karma level...

So if I understand you right, how is the proposal is different from how it is now?

How it is now: you pick a mundane class and one magickal subclass.

Your proposal: pick two magickal subclasses and one mundane subclass. 

(Just trying to grok the proposal.)

[Jihelu]

I played a merchant touched and it was one of my favorite experiences. I'm planning on getting the character drawn at some point...

Which begs the question. Would I have enjoyed my self more with a full elemental guild and merchantry subguild? To which I think, no.

I enjoyed the concept of "I have shit all magick and people hate and fear me, but all I do is make shit all day" (I got kinda bored half way through but hey you know), and I don't think I would have felt the same if I had a full guild. People can argue that I could have just ignored some of the magick I have but I don't think it feels the same as being actually codedly held back.

If I had it my way, full guilds AND subguilds would be out. Not for the same character, maybe some crazy special app full guild Vivaduan subguild Krathis?...that's getting a bit edgy though, because I think it opens up more possibilities and makes magick still somewhat 'scary'.

Magick is still scary, but I feel like it's more of a "Just bash/whatever them quickly" more so than it was before. Every magick guild has it's own 'cool kill move' and now that kill move is even harder to do, and you only get one or two as opposed to like ten. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but having someone go "I think this merchant vivaduan sub guild is going to get it!" find out that the supposed merchant was actually a main guild, would be funny.

[boog]

Magick is still scary, but I feel like it's more of a "Just bash/whatever them quickly" more so than it was before.

Exactly how is this truth? This is unbelievably false, unless you were a warrior trying to kill a 50 day fully branched <anything> back in the day.

[Jihelu]

Magick is still scary, but I feel like it's more of a "Just bash/whatever them quickly" more so than it was before.

Exactly how is this truth? This is unbelievably false, unless you were a warrior trying to kill a 50 day fully branched <anything> back in the day.

The key word is I feel, but okay then.

[boog]

How many subguild magickers have you played, Jihelu? Have they lived long enough to test your feelings out?

[Riev]

Magick has almost always been more of a "prepare better than the enemy". If you catch someone who can cast Mage Armor (DnD here) without it up, they're easier to hit.

If they have Mage Armor, a Bigby's Hand, and a 2-fireball quicken-spell combo? Maybe... maybe you come back another time.

[Akaramu]

Another possibility, instead of bringing back full elementalists: introduce a "pick two" as a main class (we're not calling them guilds anymore, kids!), plus a sub-class beneath or equal to your current karma level (or whatever they'll be turning that into, since they're working on it currently).

This would help, I think. I'd rather have two magick subguilds than a full mundane guild, it would be closer to that magickal experience I used to enjoy so much.

[maxid]

Having full guild magickers would be cool again, every type of magicker added their own unique style to the game, and while they were able to be gamed to turn into powerhouses, you can do the same with any guild realistically.  Warriors, rangers, hell, merchants, burglars, pickpockets, they all have stuff that can be abused.  The argument that a guild is 'boring' and therefore should be removed is silly at best. 

I also like the subguilds too! Anything that adds more interesting, cool things to the game is a positive.  There has always been the crowd that posts a bunch of hyperbole, attacking straw men and whining about how much they hated playing magickers.  Those people should be kept far, far away from decisions that affect the game, and staff should realize that the vocal minority do not constitute the will of the playerbase.

[boog]

I guess I'm stunned that people are still rabid over this topic. I come from a game that didn't receive updates for handfuls of years at a time, where staff ignored you and your requests just sat around to decay.

Maybe people think that because of this post I'm some sort of sycophant for staff, but holy moly. If my children spoke to me the way some of us ADULTS are speaking to staff, I would've whooped them a hundred times over.

Foaming at the mouth and trying to think of ideas that are unlikely to be implemented is just going to make you even more sour towards staff in the end, because you'll be resentful that your unsolicited ideas weren't listened to.

Why can't we just chill? If one subguild isn't working for you, try another. I wish you luck in finding your groove.

[Akaramu]

You said yourself that you don't enjoy magick and want it gone, boog. That's why you can't relate. Others feel differently; your favorite roles are still in the game.

[maxid]

I'm surprised that people that want magick removed are still rallying and posting big threads and demanding that they're listened to - as magick is actively being scoured from the gameworld.

Like, you're winning. Can you let those of us who enjoy magick stuff have a small part of the game where we can play too?  I love warriors as much as the next person, but sometimes I want to play a game where I can throw spells around.  It's fun.  Arm has always been a game where that's been possible.  Recently it's become a lesser version of what it used to be, and that's a shame.

Why would you sign up for a DnD/Dark Sun inspired game, then complain about magick? It's the craziest thing in the world.

I also will say though, that the GDB is the most venemous, poisonous cesspit of a discussion board that I've ever seen.  Everyone is a total asshole to everyone else (including me sometimes!) and it's just super toxic.  So boog trying to claim that only the pro-magick side is being shitty is pretty horrendously transparent.  Like, Synthesis is posting in this thread.  Synthesis has been a hyperbolic troll on these boards for years at this point.

[seidhr]

You said yourself that you don't enjoy magick and want it gone, boog. That's why you can't relate. Others feel differently; your favorite roles are still in the game.

I think you've inadvertently hit the nail on the head about why full elementalists were removed.  "Role" != skill tree.

[maxid]

You said yourself that you don't enjoy magick and want it gone, boog. That's why you can't relate. Others feel differently; your favorite roles are still in the game.

I think you've inadvertently hit the nail on the head about why full elementalists were removed.  "Role" != skill tree.

This is such a clear and obvious misunderstanding of the way that your class affects the way in which you interact with the world on a class-based mud.  Like, seidhr you've always been pretty ok but c'mon.  This was lazy.

[Riev]

Admittedly, it IS hard to differentiate between "role" and "skill limitations". We are an RP-intensive game. Its enforced. Its required. But we're not all good at it, and most of us are coming in with Dungeons and Dragons attitudes.

If I want to play the ROLE of a magicker who struggles to get close to people because their link to the element of Elkros causes a lot of issues with friction and static electricity, I can't. Because the SKILL TREE that allows me to bring that ROLE to life is not available.

What staff seem to be sinking into is "you can emote being however you want, you just can't have the skill tree unlocked to do it" which is a very slippery slope into MOO/MUSH territory.

[Jihelu]

How many subguild magickers have you played, Jihelu? Have they lived long enough to test your feelings out?

A few.

It's still how I said before.

A full guild has a variety of spells. In a "I prepared for this situation" I can't think of any where a warrior can just show up and win. The amount of spells and buddies you can make is nuts.

This doesn't extend over to the subguilds. I'm not saying they are bad. I'm just saying that mundanes can 'win'.
Which isn't bad.
Cause bash/etc.

Some things will still fuck you though.

If you think a warrior/corruption viv can survive the same things a regulard full guild Vivaduan could do, that's your opinion. I don't think they can.

[Rathustra]

How many subguild magickers have you played, Jihelu? Have they lived long enough to test your feelings out?

A few, and I've talked with a friend about it. I would never talk to someone out of game or anything because that's evil~12`3`121`2`12

It's still how I said before.

A full guild has a variety of spells. In a "I prepared for this situation" I can't think of any where a warrior can just show up and win. The amount of spells and buddies you can make is nuts.

This doesn't extend over to the subguilds. I'm not saying they are bad. I'm just saying that mundanes can 'win'.
Which isn't bad.
Cause bash/etc.

Some things will still fuck you though.

If you think a warrior/corruption viv can survive the same things a regulard full guild Vivaduan could do, that's your opinion. I don't think they can.

A few you say?

[Jihelu]

How many subguild magickers have you played, Jihelu? Have they lived long enough to test your feelings out?

A few, and I've talked with a friend about it. I would never talk to someone out of game or anything because that's evil~12`3`121`2`12

It's still how I said before.

A full guild has a variety of spells. In a "I prepared for this situation" I can't think of any where a warrior can just show up and win. The amount of spells and buddies you can make is nuts.

This doesn't extend over to the subguilds. I'm not saying they are bad. I'm just saying that mundanes can 'win'.
Which isn't bad.
Cause bash/etc.

Some things will still fuck you though.

If you think a warrior/corruption viv can survive the same things a regulard full guild Vivaduan could do, that's your opinion. I don't think they can.

A few you say?

Subguilds = Very few

Main guilds = slightly less few.

[Rathustra]

How many subguild magickers have you played, Jihelu? Have they lived long enough to test your feelings out?

A few, and I've talked with a friend about it. I would never talk to someone out of game or anything because that's evil~12`3`121`2`12

It's still how I said before.

A full guild has a variety of spells. In a "I prepared for this situation" I can't think of any where a warrior can just show up and win. The amount of spells and buddies you can make is nuts.

This doesn't extend over to the subguilds. I'm not saying they are bad. I'm just saying that mundanes can 'win'.
Which isn't bad.
Cause bash/etc.

Some things will still fuck you though.

If you think a warrior/corruption viv can survive the same things a regulard full guild Vivaduan could do, that's your opinion. I don't think they can.

A few you say?

Subguilds = Very few

Main guilds = slightly less few.

Hmm the numbers work out. TECHNICALLY.

[Armaddict]

Foaming at the mouth and trying to think of ideas that are unlikely to be implemented is just going to make you even more sour towards staff in the end, because you'll be resentful that your unsolicited ideas weren't listened to.

I'm not very pro magick, just open; the elementalist change was fine for me because I wasn't deeply affected.  My problem with magick in game was always based around something else entirely.

But you like to come in with these kind of statements on anything that is staff-directed, so I'm curious.  When players are disenchanted with changes that have been made, that impact the game that is negative to them...who, exactly, are they supposed to direct their appeals, explanations, and frustrations at?

If you're telling people to just back off of the hope that negative impacts, perceived or real, can be rolled back as a bad idea rather than a good one, I don't think you're being exactly helpful to anything, and you're more likely to draw attention to yourself in a negative light than influence people to stop making appeals to changes that are disagreed with.

More on topic, I'm my concern at this point of the thread tends to lean more towards the heavily-magick oriented player, which was part of my problem before.  Not the class itself, but players insisting that it was the role they wanted, and nothing else sparked their interest.  In the beginning, that was fine...but as the population of people with karma for such increased, that's what started weighing the game in odd proportions towards the degrading of the mundane.  It's not a jab, just a note:  Even if a rollback were done, I'd still want it to come with restrictions.  No more playing mage...after mage...after mage...after mage.  No more filling up the game with just easy access to gemmed, all of them clamoring for involvement by the rest of the playerbase everywhere.

[Harmless]

I cast my vote. I would guess every fourth post of mine is about this question/decision. Just look at my post history, and a quick CTRL+F for 'magick' on each page will let you see what I can currently discuss in detail. So this post will be short.

a.) If you don't like the magicker roleplay yourself personally, then that's a good thing. This encourages scarcity of magickers. Therefore disadvantages to being them are not disadvantages to the game.

b.) One does not simply erase whole swathes of lore without there being some IC notice of that, and this issue has repeatedly gone unaddressed from a staff-perspective. I would be fine with the rarity of them if it were a player-based decision, but for it to be so because we all know staff 'removed it' has permanently damaged my immersion in this game as a realistic simulation, which is what I used to frequently praise it as years ago.

c.) I've loved to repeat that staff have worded the announcement of removing magickers with certain phraseology to suggest that this decision is not, and was not necessarily intended to be permanent, and that a reworking process was occurring.

d.) I am fine with mainguild magickers entering a more restrictive state for access, such as special app only or through IC means. However, I really need to be told that one or both of these are true in order to be motivated to pursue it IC. We're talking hundreds of RL hours of being a character whose mission it is, OR who subconsciously/inadvertently pursues a path of magickal power.That would be lonely work indeed; so I would only do it if I knew that there might actually be the desired outcome, or else I would be playing a storyline that had only one possible ending.

e.) I don't have any anger towards staff over removing them, either. This means that I recognize there were faults in some previously played concepts, or storylines, and that Drovians for instance ended plots -- however, to most of these criticisms, I can think of an alternate solution rather simply that doesn't require removing a large number of class-combinations all at once.

There are more points, and some great posts in here that give other important reasons why if you had to choose one or the other. I am not surprised that currently about half of voters with over 80 responses (~40% of unique logins/month (~200), but possibly quite a bit of vote-mandering and alt-digging here; please only vote once per person, not per account, please). (fixed the numbers I had)

[Synthesis]

How many subguild magickers have you played, Jihelu? Have they lived long enough to test your feelings out?

A few.

It's still how I said before.

A full guild has a variety of spells. In a "I prepared for this situation" I can't think of any where a warrior can just show up and win. The amount of spells and buddies you can make is nuts.

This doesn't extend over to the subguilds. I'm not saying they are bad. I'm just saying that mundanes can 'win'.
Which isn't bad.
Cause bash/etc.

Some things will still fuck you though.

If you think a warrior/corruption viv can survive the same things a regulard full guild Vivaduan could do, that's your opinion. I don't think they can.

Warrior/subguild magickers are rad as fuck, yo.

But you gotta put in that grind work, son.