Bringing Back Full Elementalists

[Mazy]

Who else would like to see the full elementalist brought back along side of the new subguilds? Can someone explain to me why can't we have both?

Don't get me wrong. I like the subguilds, I really like the idea of keeping the subguilds alongside full magickers. I haven't had a lot of experience with them, but nothing can compare to having the full set of tools. When I first got to toy around with a full vivaduan, it was "WOAH, there's was a heap of gimmicks I love!"

The full guilds also catered to a group of players who like that niche and play more casually. In my mind, there's not a single reason why not to open up every one of the full guilds for play again. So, we should bring back the old incarnations of elementalist. Except for Drovians, screw drovians. (Honestly, bring those plot ruining buggers back too.)

Given the chance to play magickers again as they were might even draw back a crowd. Glancing at the Unique Logins on our update section, we've lost about ~30-40, roughly estimated at about 15%, from the start of last year depending on the months. I personally attribute this to the closure of Tuluk and the magicker changes.

If any changes need to be made, notch up the karma requirements or even require them to be one of your extended guild applications. One way or another, I believe people want to see them in the game again. Matter of fact, just out of curiosity, I'm going to add a poll.

[Armaddict]

I've never been averse to the 'power' of full mages.

I've only ever been averse to the demand of full mage players to be roped into everything so they could enjoy the game more, resulting in their use over mundanes (ignore the social stigmas and repercussions of them), and the constant gathering of gemmed in public places to talk about magery as if it was no big deal, forcing my anti-magick reaction to get old and stale and basically meaningless.

[Molten Heart]

It'd be cool if a subguild elementalist could somehow turn into a full guild elementalist. It could be set-up as an in game quest achived through a series of coded rituals to draw more elemental power. It could incorporate magical components, other magikers or mundane people and ultimately end up with the character's guild and subguild eventually changing places. Turning say a ranger/travel whiran into as Whiran/hunter (or outdoorsman, or archer, etc).

[Lizzie]

An option I would prefer to pick, that wasn't offered:

I would like to see full elementalist guilds returned and elemental subguilds eliminated.

Another option not available:

I would like to see certain full elementalist guilds returned, and the elemental subguild system completely revamped to round out what the returned full guilds might lack.

A caveat to each option above:

I would also like for people picking a full elementalist guild to not have any magick subguild available to pick in the same character, and vice versa.

So, I didn't vote

[Mazy]

I would also like for people picking a full elementalist guild to not have any magick subguild available to pick in the same character, and vice versa.

I didn't even think about that. Truth be told, sort of just wrote this up as a rant/whim then added the poll out of interest in other's opinion.

It should go without saying full elementalists ought to be barred from elementalist subguilds.

[Synthesis]

Full elementalist guilds were lame.  Vivaduans and Rukkians sucked complete ass, and were essentially used only as stepping stones to farm karma for the really annoying full mage guilds.  Full guild Whirans were so motherfucking annoying I can't even.  Drovians apparently, also.  Maxed-out Krathis and Elkrosians were totally OP.

Some of the subguilds probably could use some tweaking.  Some spells could probably use some tweaking, now that they can no longer synergize with spells they were intended to synergize with.

I like the way it is now.  It would be nice if, as a long-term goal, a subguild elementalist could learn a few more spells or whatever, but it doesn't seem necessary.

[The Lonely Hunter]

I would like to see them returned alongside of the current setup. I would like to see their karma requirements revisited (or perhaps special app) and bumped up across the board.

With that said I also think that the new system is very cool and it definitely adds flavor. I wouldn't want it to go away.

[Akaramu]

I've shared my opinion on this subject in more than one thread, so I'll just say this:

The game world isn't designed in a way that supports the existence of gemmed with mundane main guilds. Changing this would be way, WAY more work - and possibly cause more unwanted side effects - than making full elementalists an option again.

Subguild elementalists only really thrive as secret or rogue mages. But IMO the gemmed society of Allanak is a wonderful thing, and a nice change of scenery for those who want to do something different for a while. It needs to stay and I'd even support breathing more life into it.

[BadSkeelz]

Bring back Full Mages, but only as an option for Tribal Roles.

[Synthesis]

I've shared my opinion on this subject in more than one thread, so I'll just say this:

The game world isn't designed in a way that supports the existence of gemmed with mundane main guilds. Changing this would be way, WAY more work - and possibly cause more unwanted side effects - than making full elementalists an option again.

Subguild elementalists only really thrive as secret or rogue mages. But IMO the gemmed society of Allanak is a wonderful thing, and a nice change of scenery for those who want to do something different for a while. It needs to stay and I'd even support breathing more life into it.

Gemmed subguild magickers in Allanak would be great if people would

STOP

ROLLING

MERCHANT

PRIMARIES

STOP ROLLING MERCHANT PRIMARIES

[BadSkeelz]

Bring back Full Mages, but only as an option for Tribal Roles.

Also remove nil.

[Akaramu]

Bring back Full Mages, but only as an option for Tribal Roles.

Bring back Full Mages, but only as an option for Tribal Roles.

Why?

Also, I wish for you to get caught up in a crazy awesome magickal plot someday. I don't think you've had the opportunity yet, and it just might change your mind. 

I've shared my opinion on this subject in more than one thread, so I'll just say this:

The game world isn't designed in a way that supports the existence of gemmed with mundane main guilds. Changing this would be way, WAY more work - and possibly cause more unwanted side effects - than making full elementalists an option again.

Subguild elementalists only really thrive as secret or rogue mages. But IMO the gemmed society of Allanak is a wonderful thing, and a nice change of scenery for those who want to do something different for a while. It needs to stay and I'd even support breathing more life into it.

Gemmed subguild magickers in Allanak would be great if people would

STOP

ROLLING

MERCHANT

PRIMARIES

STOP ROLLING MERCHANT PRIMARIES

What's wrong with merchant primaries? Not everyone wants to be a hunter.

That said, if full elementalists came back, people would no longer have to roll merchant primaries in order to play a mage with a crafting skill who isn't guild_ranger.

[BadSkeelz]

Bring back Full Mages, but only as an option for Tribal Roles.

Why?

Also, I wish for you to get caught up in a crazy awesome magickal plot someday. I don't think you've had the opportunity yet, and it just might change your mind. 

Because I think people playing out wizard fantasies and power-trips to be a poor fit for the themes and setting of Armageddon. Magick's more interesting (to me) when viewed from the lens of tribal ritual and mysticism. ETA: It better captures the inherent wildness and irrationality that I think should underpin magic(k), instead of the overtly utilitarian usage you see out of Gemmed or non-tribal Rogues.

Also remove Nil because it makes magick too safe and tame to level up. Again, a poor fit for the theme.

[Akaramu]

Agreed about nil reach, but crazy powerful magic has always been a big part of the setting. Hell, it's the reason there's a desert all around Allanak...

[Synthesis]

Bring back Full Mages, but only as an option for Tribal Roles.

The only magick-accepting tribes that are even open are...

Sun Runners...and FFS their goddamn Krathis are already enough fucking 1337, haven't we already established that numerous fucking times throughout the history of the game?

The Al'Seik, who only take Ruk and Vivadu...and full-guild rogue Ruk and Vivadu are complete shit unless you have a warrior or ranger to constantly tank for you, or you just -really- want to roll the dice and hope you don't get ass-fucked before you can rip off a successful FUCK YOU spell.

Maybe the Arabet? Never played one and the helpfiles don't say.

Bring back Full Mages, but only as an option for Tribal Roles.

Bring back Full Mages, but only as an option for Tribal Roles.

Why?

Also, I wish for you to get caught up in a crazy awesome magickal plot someday. I don't think you've had the opportunity yet, and it just might change your mind. 

I've shared my opinion on this subject in more than one thread, so I'll just say this:

The game world isn't designed in a way that supports the existence of gemmed with mundane main guilds. Changing this would be way, WAY more work - and possibly cause more unwanted side effects - than making full elementalists an option again.

Subguild elementalists only really thrive as secret or rogue mages. But IMO the gemmed society of Allanak is a wonderful thing, and a nice change of scenery for those who want to do something different for a while. It needs to stay and I'd even support breathing more life into it.

Gemmed subguild magickers in Allanak would be great if people would

STOP

ROLLING

MERCHANT

PRIMARIES

STOP ROLLING MERCHANT PRIMARIES

What's wrong with merchant primaries? Not everyone wants to be a hunter.

That said, if full elementalists came back, people would no longer have to roll merchant primaries in order to play a mage with a crafting skill who isn't guild_ranger.

It's not about being a hunter.  It's about being able to go along on an RPT without needing a warrior to protect your stupid skill-less merchant ass.  There is literally nothing useful a merchant can do in any conceivable RPT scenario that even a burglar couldn't do better, and the total lack of combat ability means your useful magick skills could be gone in an instant if something facerolls you before someone can pop off a successful rescue.

Burglars get two crafting skills.  All subguild magickers get a crafting skill.  Warriors get a crafting skill.  Assassins get three crafting skills (unless they've changed the tree AGAIN).

The only combination that doesn't come with a non-magick crafting skill is pickpocket/subguild magicker, and who needs a crafting skill when every inventory in the Known World is your inventory, and you get an amazing haggle skill?

And no, I'm not counting "cooking."

[Akaramu]

People will play the kinds of roles they enjoy. If there aren't more combat focused mages, maybe it's because players don't find them as appealing, or because those characters have really short lifespans? And the merchants just... outlive them.

I wouldn't be surprised if combat focused gemmed have super short life spans. In another thread I mentioned how skilling them up without clan support appears to be ultra hardcode mode for most players. Personally, I don't think I'd last more than 1-2 days.

[Synthesis]

Well, geeeez, if only there were a clan that hired magickers and also had a reputation for having elite guardsmen.  Maybe they could train and stuff, like normal PCs.

Someone should look into that. 

[BadSkeelz]

Bring back Full Mages, but only as an option for Tribal Roles.

The only magick-accepting tribes that are even open are...

Sun Runners...and FFS their goddamn Krathis are already enough fucking 1337, haven't we already established that numerous fucking times throughout the history of the game?

The Al'Seik, who only take Ruk and Vivadu...and full-guild rogue Ruk and Vivadu are complete shit unless you have a warrior or ranger to constantly tank for you, or you just -really- want to roll the dice and hope you don't get ass-fucked before you can rip off a successful FUCK YOU spell.

Maybe the Arabet? Never played one and the helpfiles don't say.

The l337 Sun Runner krathis have, until recently, all been Full-Guild Krathis (And I haven't really hard of them doing anything particularly insane since the change). So allowing the to have Full-Guild Krathis (Masterkrathis?) again would only bring them up to historical levels of l337ness. I see nothing wrong with this. Restricting full guild mages to tribes (Who rarely have more than a handful of players) let's them stand up in PVP better against the much larger city clans. It provides both an in-character and out-of-character reason for why Magickal tribes haven't been shitstomped by the mostly-Mundane, Sorcery-led City States.

I can't say I share your levels of disdain for the utility of Water and Earth witches. I certainly never went out of my way to tangle with them so perhaps I've just maintained the mystique better. I do wish I had chosen Protector for my Rukkian sub instead of aggressor, because fighting without parry or shield-use is terrifying.

Arabetti do not have magickers among their ranks.

We could always ask about a new tribe being opened up with a new elemental emphasis but the chances of that are remote.

[Akaramu]

Well, geeeez, if only there were a clan that hired magickers and also had a reputation for having elite guardsmen.  Maybe they could train and stuff, like normal PCs.

Someone should look into that. 

If that was working out the way you think it does, maybe there would be more combat focused mages in the game. 

[BadSkeelz]

In my experience many people took mage guilds so they didn't have to really deal with the grind and tedium and risk of Armageddon combat. It just let them explore and be dangerous.

[Akaramu]

In my experience many people took mage guilds so they didn't have to really deal with the grind and tedium and risk of Armageddon combat. It just let them explore and be dangerous.

Possibly. We already agreed in another thread that we (speaking for the pro magic players here) wouldn't mind removing nil reach and making mage skill-ups more grindy.

[BadSkeelz]

I'd rather see mundane (combat) grind times brought down closer to mage grind times. Make it so people are dangerous more quickly and out of the game for shorter periods when they die (Because they can get a character right back up to 'useful' levels). Make risk-taking less risky across the board by making characters more disposable.

That's the theory, anyway. We'd probably still get too emotionally attached to our characters to throw them away in adventures.

Anyway, I think one of the N-staff promised to ban anyone who goes offtopic again so

Bring back Full Mages, but only as an option for Tribal Roles.

Also remove nil.

[Akaramu]

I actually really like that idea, BadSkeelz. Especially for characters who start at a somewhat advanced age - say, in their mid to late twenties.

[Melkor]

Lol I goofed. I voted for the full magickers to not return. I want them back, and the subguilds gone.

[Delirium]

I understand why people miss full guild elementalists, but I don't think the solution is to bring them back.

I think the solution is to bring the current guilds into line with why people loved the heck out of the full guild elementalists.

Simply put: it was easy to get them to relevant levels of coded sufficiency. They were flexible in the applications of their skills.

They had ways of achieving coded effects that should, realistically, be achieved through mundane means, but that the code doesn't support. In that way they were flexible and superior to mundane skillsets.

e.g., blinding, walling off areas, creating structures.

They were easy, if somewhat boring, to skill up to "I won't instantly die if I do <cool thing>" levels.

The rest - the rest of the reasons why full guild mages were fun - are honestly covered under the subguild umbrella.

I do think that, from the sounds of it, the subguilds could be further reworked and tweaked as far as what spells they get.

Other than that, I don't want to see the completely magic-focused guilds come back.

I say that as someone who loved the full guild whiran skillset for the ability to explore and be self-sufficient. I was also, quite frankly, annoyingly and brokenly powerful, and able to avoid or execute most of the playerbase with enough effort, if I so chose.

That's just... broken. I get the appeal of it, it's fun, but it's just not conducive to including others in your play.

It's also not conducive to including and making mundanes the star of the show, when full mages can do x and y better.