A Discussion on How to Improve Player Retention and Player/Staff Relations

[Molten Heart]

.

[Synthesis]

TL;DR Hyzen -

The way you feel about the game is wrong, because other people have different experiences.

If you're being snide toward me, you can just give up. His *statement* is incorrect. His statement was: players require hundreds of hours invested into a PC before their PC is "competent."

That is not true. It's not an opinion, it's a statement. And the statement is false.

Eh, it's not false.

It's "low hundreds," but it's still hundreds of hours.  8 days 8 hours is "hundreds" of hours.  That's reasonably about the time a PC starts becoming competent, unless your definition of "competence" is absurdly low, or you're defining the timeline in terms of what is maximally achievable using the "one weird trick" to artificially deflate your logged-in time.

[Lizzie]

TL;DR Hyzen -

The way you feel about the game is wrong, because other people have different experiences.

If you're being snide toward me, you can just give up. His *statement* is incorrect. His statement was: players require hundreds of hours invested into a PC before their PC is "competent."

That is not true. It's not an opinion, it's a statement. And the statement is false.

Eh, it's not false.

It's "low hundreds," but it's still hundreds of hours.  8 days 8 hours is "hundreds" of hours.  That's reasonably about the time a PC starts becoming competent, unless your definition of "competence" is absurdly low, or you're defining the timeline in terms of what is maximally achievable using the "one weird trick" to artificially deflate your logged-in time.

I don't know any weird tricks, I am - as I've said countless times before, the "anti-twink." I've already defined "competence" in this thread. You don't need hundreds of hours to be competent. You just don't.

[Armaddict]

Many of my PC's accomplish many things prior to 5 days of playing time.

It's not dependent on skill level.  It's dependent on available content/goings-on.

[Synthesis]

Pfft.

Accomplished many things in 5 days played.

Whatever.

Logs or it didn't happen.

[Lizzie]

Pfft.

Accomplished many things in 5 days played.

Whatever.

Logs or it didn't happen.

Less than 24 hours played on my very first PC:

Hired by a templar.
Whira-flown to the Rinth and ambush-inducted into the Guild.
Given oversight of a PC slave by said Templar.


Less than 5 days played by another PC:

Discovered by a sorcerer.
Taken to his lair.
Made one of his henchmen.
Found out about some plotlines that even now aren't known except by the people involved - and a couple of us who learned about it ICly.

Less than 5 days played with my Red Fang ranger:
Played a Red Fang. That right there stands on its own but...also...
raided my first raid victim (and let him live)
Killed a gith.
Successfully took my Red Fang to Tuluk, in public, sold off a bunch of stuff in their market, walked into the Sanctuary, made a non-hidden acknowledgement to a couple of people inside, and successfully left the city completely unscathed.

Another PC -
Joined the Byn within the first few hours of play.
Successfully beat the shit out of one of the other runners within the first 24 hours of play.
Was promoted to trooper within the first 48 hours of play.
Was promoted to Sergeant within the first 4 days of play.
Was murdered by my own unit within the first 10 days of play, having branched absolutely no skills at all.

[Armaddict]

Okay.  I don't keep logs, but I can show you this:

Nordak, Ranger - Total time played, 13 days.
-Founding member of Borsail Wyverns at <5 days played.  First lieutenant of the wyverns at <8 days played.  Demoted because I was a newbie who didn't realize that meant I was a leader, basically.

Zurak, Warrior - Total time played, 23 days
-Dwarf with below average strength
-Escorted Allanaki forces at <5 days.  Killed Tuluki templar.
-Chosen to safeguard mantis valley excursion for scouting at <15 days played.

Zylin, Kuraci Ranger - Total time played, 28 days
-<5 days, wandered into <redacted>, found metal.
-<10 days, without knowing archery was awesome, used archery to fend off blackmoon raiders set up outside of Luir's outpost

Davros, Arm of the Dragon Warrior - Total time played, 16 days
-<5 days, Sergeant of the Arm because he was relentless in patrols and thus found more criminals than anyone else.
-<10 days, Got into a rivalry with a Byn Sergeant, ended up killing him in the streets and getting exiled from Allanak.
-<12 days, captured in the north, enslaved, made into personal slave of a noble.
-16 days, fought off attackers of said noble without a weapon.  She died anyway, with me shortly after.

Tariq, Desert elf ranger - Total time played, 5 days
-Raided Allanaki soldiers who were patrolling the sands
-Founded alliance with city elf groups to provide them with resources from beyond the gates they needed
-Served as enforcer for his tribe for a brief time.
-Died to a mantis pack because I ran myself to exhaustion, ending right in front of them.

Zaavan, city-elf burglar - Total time played, 9 hours
-Found an unlocked door, picked the chests inside the apartment, later found out it was a Red Robe's apartment.
-Argued with the guild over how he's supposed to know what's protected and what isn't.
-Formed a city-wide manhunt, was eventually killed by an animated PC that had died two previous times to soldiers attacking him in the city

Brogan, city-elf burglar - Total time played, 5 days
-Broke into Oashi mansion.  Killed a noble.
-Stole a magickal helm that was being studied, didn't know it was magickal: he was using it as a disguise to try and escape.
-couldn't take it off, died when a half-giant soldier took it off for him.

Torked, dwarf warrior - Total time played, 7 days
-Went through the byn.  Joined Tor.
-Routinely patrolled with the Arm for days 3-6
-Killed an Arm of the Dragon Corporal in a duel that the corporal demanded outside the gates
-Executed by a templar for the above, much to the Tor's dismay since it was an honorable request

Jelek, city-elf burglar - total time played, 2 days 21 hours
-Formed a city elf gang that received props from those running the 'rinth.
-Fueled inner-city conflict by defending eastside interests with said gang
-Targeted in group combat because he'd killed a couple guild members

Jaer, dwarven ranger - total time played, 5 days 21 hours
-Served as freelancer to Tuluki army in mostly scouting capacities
-Died after his third trip into muarki lands to a gypsy who brought two npc guards with him.


And so on.  And so on.  And so on.  All of them got involved in very fun events prior to or close to 5 days played in capacities where they were useful and contributing to the game.  Some of them were even incredibly important.  Not because they stayed behind walls trying to insure they stayed alive, but because they were eager to get involved and contribute.

The idea that the only thing that makes the game 'worth it' is living long enough to not die is screwing yourself out of the potential for fun, because you seem to think more in terms of investment than opportunity.

[Molten Heart]

.

[Armaddict]

How many achievements/accomplishments depend on other player's long playtime/days played?

'Achievement' is the wrong word.  Generating fun is what we're going for.  Some people will inevitably survive longer, but that does not equate with adding more to the game.  Sometimes, that 3 days played burglar is generating more activity for people in a short spurt of 4 RL days of continued playtime than the guy who logs in every day with total focus on skill gains so that he can be a badass in whatever event he decides to get involved in down the line.

I didn't add in some of my longer-lived individuals, because the point was that even short term, 'thrown in' characters contribute content to the game as long as they're playing for now, instead of holding everything off in order to plan for the future.

However, many of those listed were solo/small group.  Some of them, like Jelek or Tariq, I was actually one of the longer lived people in the group.

The time other players spend logged into the game is something that's being overlooked. Imagine if everyone playing the game only logged into the game for an hour at a time.

Again.  That's kind of what I've been pushing for, is content.  With players settling back into a more passive 'long-game' mentality, we require either a code based or staff-based presentation of things to do.  I said it before.  Logging in because 'There are things I need to do' versus logging in because 'Maybe something will happen' are two very different feelings as far as enjoyment.

[Riev]

I have a hard time playing these days, and even if I DO log in for an hour, I see next to nothing. Primarily because of the time I can log in.

But when I do? I look at people, I emote, I change my ldesc, I DO things. But most people either aren't online, don't hang around communal gatherings, or spam-walk past anything that looks like an NPC.

[John]

Unless characters become funner quicker, and unless staff more aggressively animate the game world, the game will continue a slow decline.

Armageddons demise has been greatly exaggerated for years now. Yet We're seeing numbers slowly rise from where they were a month ago, which funnily enough is what happens at this time of year every year.

Lowering Arm's difficulty will (IMO) destroy part of its charm and drive players away, IMO.

[hyzhenhok]

Synthesis is right, I was referring to ~10 days because that's about how long it took me on average to get moderately competent at combat (we're not talking "stomp baddies alone" skilled. More like maybe can lead Byn or hunting parties against common, moderately-dangerous creatures?) or to master skills where a single failure can be PC-threatening. I've never been wholly skills focused, but there are lot of fun character concepts that are skill-gated and the time investment to get where you want the concept to be can be heavy. Sure, maybe only players who are drawn to those character concepts get burned by this. But that might be a significant chunk of the players that you can't retain.

And it's not purely skills. It also roughly tracks will how long it takes for me to feel my characters are socially integrated, but I'm not going to say I was ever a skilled socialite. I've played high-flavor, low-involvement, low-skill PCs before. It's a completely different experience when you're fresh out the gate, just hanging out somewhere trying to pull people into interactions, and when your character has dozens of PC acquaintances and you have a bit of a reputation, maybe. The most butthurt I ever got over a PC death was exactly such a (nearly) pure flavor character with 10 days played and almost no skill grinding that I felt was a bit unfairly PKed just as things were starting to get awesome. There's investment lost  there, too. It'll take my next character, what, 3-4 IRL weeks and tens of hours played just to get to the "oh, this newbie character is probably not going to run off and die. we can pay attention to it" point?

No, not every character needs 200+ hours of investment to reach their potential. And yes, there's fun in the early phases of a character. But I'm not sure how you could question that the game offers tantalizing payoffs (in multiple directions) that require significant time investment--which can be lost in an instant.

[Delirium]

I think part of the solution is to break the playerbase out of the mentality of only paying attention to "established" PCs.

Yes, it takes time to build trust, and it should, but you can absolutely come up with ways to involve even the brand newest of PCs.

Do it. Stop being elitist and just do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXsQAXx_ao0

[BadSkeelz]

As a corollary to that, continue the trend towards making all PCs useful more quickly.

Bringing people of any skill level in to a plot is all well and good, but it's not good for anyone's enjoyment when the [Novice] newbie gets put in way over their head, dies, and potentially takes Ms 100-days-played's character down with them. The newbie might bounce back (they often do) but how discouraging is it for the veteran to have to start as square 1 again? Lessening the sting of character loss and encouraging risk taking can make Armageddon a funner, more vibrant game.

[Lizzie]

No, not every character needs 200+ hours of investment to reach their potential. And yes, there's fun in the early phases of a character. But I'm not sure how you could question that the game offers tantalizing payoffs (in multiple directions) that require significant time investment--which can be lost in an instant.

They wouldn't be so tantalizing if 1) everyone could get them fairly easily, 2) there was no significant risk of immediate and permanent loss.

[hyzhenhok]

No, not every character needs 200+ hours of investment to reach their potential. And yes, there's fun in the early phases of a character. But I'm not sure how you could question that the game offers tantalizing payoffs (in multiple directions) that require significant time investment--which can be lost in an instant.

They wouldn't be so tantalizing if 1) everyone could get them fairly easily, 2) there was no significant risk of immediate and permanent loss.

I didn't say anything about reducing the risk of immediate and permanent loss. And dumping 200 hours into a character to get from newbie to somewhat useful and socially established isn't any harder than just having to do 50-100 hours would be. It's just a time sink that prices grownups out of the game.

[nauta]

Related to the op: I noticed this week (which still has 13 hours left in it) that unique logins are way up and new applications are double what they were last week. So whatever we did, do it more!

http://www.armageddon.org/updates/index.php?week=17&year=2017

(To view previous years just change the year in the url.)

[ghanima]

Related to the op: I noticed this week (which still has 13 hours left in it) that unique logins are way up and new applications are double what they were last week. So whatever we did, do it more!

I've noticed the increase in players lately too and I don't know if it's enough to just write it off as yet another cyclical thing. My money's on it being the new gladiator updates. I'm definitely excited to see how this turns out and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

[Riev]

Whatever happened to the graphs that were being produced, a while ago? That had peak players over the course of the week, or unique logins over the course of a year?

I found those incredibly interesting, and were a good measure of health (200 unique logins this week doesn't tell me much other than its "around what it was last week")

[Brytta Léofa]

My solution proposals:
...
2.  Code a mobile-device app that allows for psionic communication without actually logging into the game.  Allow players to decide whether or not to be available for the app.  If you're logged in to the game, and your target contact is logged out, but available via the app, you can send the psi and it will be sent to the target PC's player's mobile device, and they can respond.  Such communication would be subject to all forms of magick or psionic snooping, spoofing, blocking, or other miscellaneous shenanigans.

3.  Code a psionic inbox so that when you log in, you can check the list of messages that your PC would've received.  Again, subject to snooping, spoofing, blocking, or shenanigans.
...
5.  Radically re-code the Labyrinth.  Change the room correspondence from 1:1 width of Allanak to like a width of 10:1, with a 3-layer aboveground Y axis.  Put so many quit rooms, hidey-holes, hidden places, and wandering NPCs in it that it would be entirely possible to be a relatively anonymous low-level criminal.  Implement a reasonable economic system for the area (i.e. one that doesn't revolve around looting dead NPCs.) Code some scrub-level gangs that are joinable from either chargen, or with minimal effort.

6.  Enable either mobile-app or offline payments...so if you hire someone to do something, and they do it, you can pay them for the work even if you otherwise rarely run into each other in game.  Maybe this could be limited to folks with active Nenyuk accounts or whatever.

So, lemme tell you how I play Arm:
- I get excited about a character.
- I create the character and play as much as I can manage for a few days/weeks.
- Assuming the character doesn't just die, at some point I get (1) bored or (2) distracted, ignore him for a RL year, and store when I get excited about the game again.

Now let's be evil: offline play elements like Synthesis' Psychic Inbox (and eke the Arm IC Newsletter idea someone else had) would be amazing for keeping me hooked.  Half the fun of Arm is in thinking about Arm.  Don't let me stop thinking about it.

[number13]

There should be an option to roll an older character with decent skills, some things branched versus and not-so-decent stats -- versus a younger character with guaranteed decent stats and no skills.

People who play a billion hours and have the patience to grind can take the younger option, and get the power of potential. People who just want to log in and not be a complete chump for 3 or 4 hours a week can take the older character option, and be able to participate right away.

I simply won't play if I have to devote 3 to 5 days to developing a character before doing anything halfway interesting.

[Riev]

For "most" skills, it only takes like 10-15 minutes of every In Game day of practice before you can go about socializing or doing the things you need, to survive. Yes, it still amounts to a lot of time to feel "decent" in a skill, but it doesn't require THAT much.

However, I do agree. We should be able to cater to more of a "Rather than a Tabletop, I play Arm for 4 hours every Sunday, and I don't want to spend a RL month to raise my skill 10%".

[RogueGunslinger]

Used to be you could get as many skillbumps as you had karma PLUS 3. That was nice. Now you can only get 3 period, and using one on a weapon skill is like using 2... And considering weapon skills are the ones that suck shit and take forever it leaves me not really wanting to use my spec-apps on skill-bumps.

Basically the only option we have for skipping the grind got nerfed to uselessness.

[Narf]

Unless characters become funner quicker, and unless staff more aggressively animate the game world, the game will continue a slow decline.

Armageddons demise has been greatly exaggerated for years now. Yet We're seeing numbers slowly rise from where they were a month ago, which funnily enough is what happens at this time of year every year.

Lowering Arm's difficulty will (IMO) destroy part of its charm and drive players away, IMO.

I think one of the primary problems of the game is that "lowering difficulty" and "decreasing time commitment" are seen as synonymous.

I think the game would be substantially helped by decreasing time commitment and increasing difficulty. "Fail" (die) more often, but get punished less for it.

[maxid]

Lizzie and Armaddict, you two have been around long enough not to argue with Synthesis in good faith.  Synthesis never bothers to argue in good faith, so you're putting forth a lot of effort for no real gain.

Anyway, staff and players trusting each other (and actually both being worthy of that trust) would go a long way toward making the game a better place to be.