A Discussion on How to Improve Player Retention and Player/Staff Relations

[Evilone]

What moe said.

[Dresan]

Hmm.

I don't think having staff do more plots will solve anything. There are some players never liked light shows in the sky.

Many years ago when I first started playing there was a perception that anyone could do anything, even become a sorcerer king. That perception is now lost though. It was an illusion that was mostly based on deciet, bias and outright cheating.  Too many times players attempting this climb were stomped down and those few that succeed often times had really good relationships with staff.

We are more sensitive to this type of behavior, and its mostly gone the way of the dodo. I hope. However, right now,the feeling that none of our character can make a difference anymore does exist.  While less favoritism, bias and cheating is a good thing, its cause people to stop trying. I believe recently the game/staff has tried to focus on player groups to attempt to dish out quest/rewards. Attempting to help players form their own groups/clan/houses while supporting existing clans. For the most part this has been a good idea, except that we as players eventually hit that virtual power ceiling.

It really all goes back to the thought i had a few days ago. Allanak is virtually too strong (the city, its clans, etc) and too far reaching. The virtual power ceiling needs to come far down, so that players and their groups feel like they can accomplish something again, without having god-like figures ready to destroy their work at every corner. Most of us already don't aim for goals that don't have a clear set of rules or require much staff interevention.

Staff plots should be aimed at changing and evolving the world, making it different and refreshing, bringing in new RP experiences and opportunities. However, its player plots and ambitions that should be the main source of fun and entertainment of this game.

[Akariel]

It should also be noted that when a new player submits a character they do get an email with a lot of introductory information. Not only the generic form text that you all know so well, but we as staff have the ability to write in comments on the center of that email. I tend to put a paragraph or three telling the new players what they should look at and do depending on their character concept. (Normally we get things like 'blacksmith's son's and I'll send them a link to helpfiles on metal and a small blurb about it, as an example.)

[Dar]

Hey guys.

I myself am nooot too certain about this, but I guess it should be thrown out there as an idea.

What if new players that racked in less then 10 hours played across ALL OF THEIR CHARACTERS were to have access to ... ... the newbie channel!

Only staff and helpers would have the option of toggling into the channel as well as possibly having an echo of ,"a new player has arrived in dormitory" kind of thing.

That is ... not very RPI and so should be extremely limited, but could be beneficial in some aspect.


I 'do' realize that there is a helper's chat. But truth the truth is that there is a percentage of potential players that have tendency to skip a lot of text, just to get into the game and get the feel of the gameplay. It's unfortunate, but it's true. And some of that text that they skip is indeed an advice about the helper's chat.

[NerdyFingers]

Hey guys.

I myself am nooot too certain about this, but I guess it should be thrown out there as an idea.

What if new players that racked in less then 10 hours played across ALL OF THEIR CHARACTERS were to have access to ... ... the newbie channel!

Only staff and helpers would have the option of toggling into the channel as well as possibly having an echo of ,"a new player has arrived in dormitory" kind of thing.

That is ... not very RPI and so should be extremely limited, but could be beneficial in some aspect.


I 'do' realize that there is a helper's chat. But truth the truth is that there is a percentage of potential players that have tendency to skip a lot of text, just to get into the game and get the feel of the gameplay. It's unfortunate, but it's true. And some of that text that they skip is indeed an advice about the helper's chat.

Personally I thought it was refreshing not to see a mud school or have a global channel when I joined Armageddon. I think that it helps set it apart.

Playing in a clan is significantly easier. And it helps you find people who can teach you how to play. Maybe we should let new players start out in a limited number of clans.

[Armaddict]

I don't think there's anything wrong with having a mud school or tutorial area.  However, it should be entirely optional, and not so excessive that they get burdened down under the 'I just want to plaaay' feeling (which can happen when we send people to a whole shload of documentation).  People who don't want it, don't need it, and that's a-ok.  But it should be an option, the same as any other coded function of the game (i.e. Someone earlier was saying they didn't want to engage in NPC raiders.  That's fine.  But there should be content available for those who -do- want those sorts of activities to be readily available).

Altogether, I really do think, and have thought for a long time, that the closing of clans may have served some purpose that was desired, but it's having an undesirable side-effect as well that is slowly taking its toll on people.  Open up clans, and provide content for them (either coded, OR return to the expectation of clan staff working with the players to provide actual missions and goals that need relatively consistent activity), and you'll have people wanting to log in to get things done rather than log in to be available for maybe if something might happen.  The latter leads to a sort of malaise, I think.

[Saiseiki]

Playing in a clan is significantly easier. And it helps you find people who can teach you how to play. Maybe we should let new players start out in a limited number of clans.

That's a very interesting idea, Nerdy.  You mean like straight out of chargen?  Yeah, I could go for that.  Give them a one-sentence explanation of what the clan is - "The T'zai Byn are grizzled mercenaries, hired for missions ranging from bounty hunting to escort duty."  Huh.  Would have helped the two friends I've already tried to get into Arm.

[Akaramu]

That's a very interesting idea, Nerdy.  You mean like straight out of chargen?  Yeah, I could go for that.  Give them a one-sentence explanation of what the clan is - "The T'zai Byn are grizzled mercenaries, hired for missions ranging from bounty hunting to escort duty."  Huh.  Would have helped the two friends I've already tried to get into Arm.

It would also have helped my one RL friend who tried the game, I think. He was intrigued by my stories about ingame events, but then super disappointed because he couldn't figure out how to find players (as opposed to NPCs).

[Lizzie]

The problem with just sticking them into the Byn out of chargen is the availability of its leaders - or lack thereof. If a new player logs in at 4AM, and there are no Sergeants or even Troopers who log in during that time, he'll be in the Byn, a solo player with zero leadership, with access to everyone's stuff.

Worse, there's no one to explain to him that he probably shouldn't gather up all the sparring weapons and sell them in the Salarr shop. Not everyone spends time reading the room descriptions to take into consideration the virtual NPCs who are there, watching their character. It takes only that one new player who doesn't understand why it's a bad idea, to ruin it for everyone else. Can't fault the new player, they're new. But you can fault the system for shoving that new player into a situation with zero oversight.

[Synthesis]

The problem with just sticking them into the Byn out of chargen is the availability of its leaders - or lack thereof. If a new player logs in at 4AM, and there are no Sergeants or even Troopers who log in during that time, he'll be in the Byn, a solo player with zero leadership, with access to everyone's stuff.

Worse, there's no one to explain to him that he probably shouldn't gather up all the sparring weapons and sell them in the Salarr shop. Not everyone spends time reading the room descriptions to take into consideration the virtual NPCs who are there, watching their character. It takes only that one new player who doesn't understand why it's a bad idea, to ruin it for everyone else. Can't fault the new player, they're new. But you can fault the system for shoving that new player into a situation with zero oversight.

Last time I checked, the Byn doesn't have any communal storage areas that you have access to as a Runner...but it's been awhile since I was in.  The only way to get access to everyone's stuff is to sneak past the guards and completely ignore the vNPCs and NPCs in the area.

That possibility isn't really an argument in your favor, though, because that already can happen and probably does happen, although not with enough frequency for people to demand changes like locked doors and the like.

[Lizzie]

My point stands Synthesis, though perhaps that was a bad hypothetical example. The point, is that PC leaders with the authority to do the hiring, should be the ones doing the hiring. That is one example of oversight, that is eliminated completely when someone is able to automatically show up in a clan as a brand new player's first character. Not just zero oversight, but the lack of leadership availability. Presumably, everyone who has been hired into a clan, was hired by a PC. That requires the player of the leader PC to be logged in when the hiring is occurring. So at the very least, the PC doing the hiring, has some vague idea of who he hired. This - is also eliminated when someone is hired into a clan upon exiting the hall of kings, without even so much as an interview.

And then - what happens when the clan is full? Who gets to be auto-clanned and who doesn't? And why doesn't the PC leader get a say in the matter, since he's the one who ends up stuck with the results?

[Synthesis]

My point stands Synthesis, though perhaps that was a bad hypothetical example. The point, is that PC leaders with the authority to do the hiring, should be the ones doing the hiring. That is one example of oversight, that is eliminated completely when someone is able to automatically show up in a clan as a brand new player's first character. Not just zero oversight, but the lack of leadership availability. Presumably, everyone who has been hired into a clan, was hired by a PC. That requires the player of the leader PC to be logged in when the hiring is occurring. So at the very least, the PC doing the hiring, has some vague idea of who he hired. This - is also eliminated when someone is hired into a clan upon exiting the hall of kings, without even so much as an interview.

And then - what happens when the clan is full? Who gets to be auto-clanned and who doesn't? And why doesn't the PC leader get a say in the matter, since he's the one who ends up stuck with the results?

To make an omelette, you have to break some eggshells.

[NerdyFingers]

That's a very interesting idea, Nerdy.  You mean like straight out of chargen?  Yeah, I could go for that.  Give them a one-sentence explanation of what the clan is - "The T'zai Byn are grizzled mercenaries, hired for missions ranging from bounty hunting to escort duty."  Huh.  Would have helped the two friends I've already tried to get into Arm.

Thank you Saiseiki. Yeah I mean right out of chargen.

The problem with just sticking them into the Byn out of chargen is the availability of its leaders - or lack thereof. If a new player logs in at 4AM, and there are no Sergeants or even Troopers who log in during that time, he'll be in the Byn, a solo player with zero leadership, with access to everyone's stuff.

Worse, there's no one to explain to him that he probably shouldn't gather up all the sparring weapons and sell them in the Salarr shop. Not everyone spends time reading the room descriptions to take into consideration the virtual NPCs who are there, watching their character. It takes only that one new player who doesn't understand why it's a bad idea, to ruin it for everyone else. Can't fault the new player, they're new. But you can fault the system for shoving that new player into a situation with zero oversight.

That's a good point Lizzie. I wasn't thinking about a newbie logging in for the first time and deciding to sell off all of their clan's stuff. For it to work, a newbie clan would have to be reworked first. It would need things like separate storage, good explanations of how to behave, and closer monitoring.

[hyzhenhok]

I stopped playing because the enjoyment I got from the game wasn't worth the enormous time investment required. Honestly, I think there's flaw deep in the way the game is designed that leads to this. And I bet it's a far bigger constraint on the game's population than the game's difficulty for new players.

This is a game that tells you, "You're going to die, again and again. And it'll be fun!" But unlike most permadeath games where a death will cost you at most several hours of progress, in Armageddon it can take dozens or hundreds of hours. This is an important design consideration in all difficult games, permadeath or not, because the more punishing or frustrating death is, the more likely a player will put the game down for good after a death. What's the difference between Dwarf Fortress and Armageddon? Both offer utterly unique gaming experiences, have steep learning curves, require significant time investment, and feature "permadeath." Answer: Armageddon requires far more time invested to access the unique experiences it offers, and sets you back far, far more with each "death."

There's a minimum requirement of hundreds of hours played before your character becomes competent at most coded skills, and it can and will be lost so easily. And even with jokey flavor characters not meant to accomplish anything, it can take a lot of time to establish a presence in other player's mindspace and have even shallow social relationships going. And that, too, can be lost in an instant even if you're playing safe, city-bound character because of the nature of the setting.

My guess is this conflict is also the root cause of a lot of people who quit the game with hurt feelings--it's hard to convincingly say "Yeah that was kinda shitty, but this game is about a shitty world. Start a new character and do it again!" when everything about the way the game world works screams at you that you need to cherish and protect and covet your skilled & successful PCs (and their skilled & successful allies).

A different but related issue in the social game is how punishing it is to take breaks. If I step away from the game for 1-2 months and try to come back on the same character, usually the world has moved on. I might still have my skills, but socially you have to start again from scratch (usually, depending on the role and who your previous circle was). Reintegrating into the clan your character is a member of is horrifying--multiple of times I had PCs ICly hassled for being OOCly absent after coming back from a couple weeks break, generally leading me to either /gquit or store. So not only do I have to pump tons of hours into the game to get what I want out of it, but the more I invest, the more I feel obligated to keep investing lest I lose what I've built. I'd really, really love to have some realistic way to keep tabs on what's going on in the game that my character should be involved in even when I can only commit a couple hours per week to the game because of grown-up life.

Synthesis's early posts in this thread hit the nail on the head here. You massively enhance playability and bring the mechanics more in line with the apparent game ethos if you increase skill gains and/or find ways to enable to the social game to work with less in-game hours committed. This will effectively reduce what the player might "lose" to permadeath or periods of hiatus, meaning players will be less frustrated, less daunted every time they have to start over . . . and thus be more likely to take risks, make trouble, start a new character when they lose one, or jump back into the game when they get the itch to come back.

[ghanima]

everything about the way the game world works screams at you that you need to cherish and protect and covet your skilled & successful PCs (and their skilled & successful allies).

I've never seen anything like this happen. Ever. Unless I just want my PC to die and play intentionally reckless (which is an OOC thing to do in itself) I cherish and protect and covet my unskilled and unsuccessful PCs as well as my skilled ones. I've also never been witness to people going to great lengths to protect and covet their skilled and successful allies. At least, not any more than would be realistic to do so anyway.

Reintegrating into the clan your character is a member of is horrifying--multiple of times I had PCs ICly hassled for being OOCly absent after coming back from a couple weeks break, generally leading me to either /gquit or store.

Why would you need to "reintegrate" into the clan if you were only away for two weeks? Every instance I've seen of it becoming an issue in a clan is when the person regularly vanishes for weeks on end and when they never give any heads up beforehand. No clan demands that you play the game every single day. You could get away with being a pretty consistent guy in a clan if you only played twice a week even. But if you're gonna be in a clan there is some commitment and communication expected.  I've been in clans like the Byn and vanished for an entire week, then jumped back in full steam and no one said a word about it. I just don't think there's this pandemic of clan leaders bullying people who can't play all day every day (it might happen once or twice but it's hardly the trend, and when it does happen you can file a complaint about it).

The grind aspect of the game is never fun. There's no two ways about it. But there has to be a period of beginner to mastery that requires some commitment otherwise everyone is exactly the same whether they're straight out of chargen or many, many months into their role. I agree wholeheartedly that a slight pull back on the length of time it takes to develop certain skills would be a tremendous boon to the game. So would some sort of smartphone app that lets you communicate through the Way without having to truly be settled down and ready to play with undivided attention. Though I'm also not about to quit because we don't (yet) have these things either.

[Lizzie]

I stopped playing because the enjoyment I got from the game wasn't worth the enormous time investment required.

There is no "enormous time investment required," by your standards (which you define below).

This is a game that tells you, "You're going to die, again and again. And it'll be fun!"

No, it tells you, "your PC is going to die, and after it does, you'll have lots of options to try with your next one, that you didn't have with your current one." And by that I don't mean karma. I mean you can now play that rinthi elf you might've thought would be interesting. Or you can try one of the different guild/subguild combos. Or start out of a different starting area, or try to get into a different clan. All things you couldn't do when you were playing your last character.

But unlike most permadeath games where a death will cost you at most several hours of progress, in Armageddon it can take dozens or hundreds of hours.

If you think of playing a game as payment, then yes - it can cost you. But most people play games because it's fun for them. It's what they WANT to do with their time. Time doesn't equal money for them, when they're doing something they enjoy doing.

(...in comparison to Dwarf Fortress, which I've never played and therefore can't comment on)

Armageddon requires far more time invested to access the unique experiences it offers, and sets you back far, far more with each "death."

My first character ever got sucked into unique experiences the second time I logged into the game. Most of my characters have the opportunity to get involved in unique experiences, and each time I lose a character, I have learned more about HOW to get involved in unique experiences, and I'm in a better frame of mind to be able to attempt it with subsequent characters. That makes having "access to unique experiences" easier each time. Not harder.

There's a minimum requirement of hundreds of hours played before your character becomes competent at most coded skills, and it can and will be lost so easily.

This is just flat out untrue, and you're doing new players a disservice with your hyperbole. Competency does not mean mastery. Competency also doesn't mean "must be able to kill that bad-ass mul raider near Luir's." Competency means you can stand your ground against minimal threats, and/or have learned enough about code and roleplay to get away from (or talk your way out of) more significant threats. It means you are able to not lose sids every time you craft with raw materials, and get to a point where you're now able to feed and water yourself and your mount with enough left over at the end of the day for an ale at the bar. That's "competent." You might need a few dozen hours of active play time to become competent in all of your starting skills, to the point where you've branched a couple more skills. A few dozen hours of active play time includes practice at the skill and roleplay combined, and can take anywhere from a couple of weeks to a few months, tops. That's not even almost "hundreds of hours." Only a rare few characters ever have hundreds of hours played, and most of them became badass, not merely competent, long before they ever hit their first hundred.

If you want to master every skill on your character's skill tree including the highest-tier branched skills, get promoted to Master Sergeant Advisor, be invited to a private audience at a Senate meeting, and lead a crew of 50 elves and dwarves to war against Morin's logging camp, then yeah - you probably need a few hundred hours. But none of that is considered "competency."

If you want to be better than competent, then it means you want to get involved in some interaction between your character and other characters, who can possibly work in tangent to accomplish things. You don't need to be all that great with the code to do this, though being competent is very useful.

A different but related issue in the social game is how punishing it is to take breaks. If I step away from the game for 1-2 months and try to come back on the same character, usually the world has moved on. I might still have my skills, but socially you have to start again from scratch (usually, depending on the role and who your previous circle was).

This is no different from being in a clan where all the other characters either die, store, or have to be away for a month or two, leaving you by yourself with no one to report to or get tasks from. And then all of a sudden a new boss gets sponsored into the clan, and he tells you his way of running the clan is totally different from how you had been experiencing it back a couple months ago when your clan was active.

It's also no different than if your character dies, and you roll up a new one, who ends up in the same clan as before. Now you have to make new relationships, which is one of the FUN things about the game. If you have a different mindset than that, then you're definitely playing the wrong game and Armageddon is probably not the best match for you. This isn't the "fault" of Armageddon. Or you. It's just not a good match. You'd be better suited to a different type of game, that's all.

Reintegrating into the clan your character is a member of is horrifying--multiple of times I had PCs ICly hassled for being OOCly absent after coming back from a couple weeks break, generally leading me to either /gquit or store.

If you posted on your clan board or sent a request to your clan staff giving them a heads up that you'd be unavailable for awhile, then there's no reason why anyone should hassle you ICly about it. If you disappear without notice IC or OOC, then show up 2 RL weeks later and demand a promotion since it's been exactly a year since your character was hired, expect to get a critical response to that. Two RL weeks is a game month, and there are only 3 game months to a game year. So if your character is MIA for 1/3 of a year, don't expect a yearly promotion. Or back pay. You were hired into that particular boss's crew. If you want to play that you were assigned to a virtual crew when your character wasn't in the game for 2 weeks, then just assume that your virtual character was virtually payed by the virtual boss during that 2-week period.

[Riev]

TL;DR Hyzen -

The way you feel about the game is wrong, because other people have different experiences.

[BadSkeelz]

"My anecdotal experiences don't match your anecdotal experiences therefore you are wrong!"

I'm actually in broad agreement with hyzhenhok, Synthesis, and others. Armageddon is too high maintenance and too high investment for the return it gives you.

Eventually the gameworld will be ruled by the unemployed, the very young, and the retired, who will all jealously guard their 100 day characters' at the expense of others and continue the stagnation.

Unless characters become funner quicker, and unless staff more aggressively animate the game world, the game will continue a slow decline.

[nauta]

I really like the ideas suggested a couple times about opening things up to asynchronous forms of play.  In particular, I like the idea of some vehicle (unsure about implementation) which would allow you to 'log in' to your character and only perform various psionic tasks (sending and receiving ways).  As someone who had a -lot- of time on their hands until recently, one frustration was that plots didn't move along owing to missed connections.  This would fix that.  As someone who now has a lot less time on their hands, I could log in and move plots along via the way, but I couldn't do much more than that.

It'd be a big coding project and there'd be a lot of ways to implement and things to think about, but I like the idea.  However, a simple way of implementing it:

You log into a special room and do not suffer from hunger or thirst, and can only send and receive ways (and no fancy magic stuff).

[Mazy]

A lot of good suggestions have come from this thread. I don't think what Lizzie's trying to say is wrong. I had a similar situation where I jumped in then promptly was hooked and drawn into unique experiences that only the immersion of Armageddon mud can offer.

I wholeheartedly believe that the best way to retain players is through players being more involving. It used to be like a mantra on the forum, "be the change." While the staff can do some awesome things and give leeway on the first characters a new player submits, they can't bring the world alive or inspire someone to log in time and time again like a community or other players can.

Keeping players is another story. After the inclusion and initial learning process is done, people want to play a character who'll be good at what their bio intended them to do. Some like playing characters who are utterly awesome in combat, and I don't fault them for it. If you want to make a character who can fuck up someone in the training hall or dodge mekillots, I say more power to you. Most of us are ordinary in real life, so why not escape into something extraordinary. And it's not an exaggeration to say as a martial character, it's going to take more than a little bit of skilling up (perhaps in the excesses of 500 hours). Combat clans are a great place for these sorts, both for character growth and skill progression.

This's fine by me, as it give more incentives for people to play. If anything, combat, subdue, and weapon skills progression could use a review, perhaps it could be asked about during the player staff meeting.

If you're a new player and reading how much time it takes, don't be discouraged. Without any combat skills or magick spells, if you're smart and charismatic enough, you can enjoy yourself. If you're new, immerse yourself first, then find someone you genuinely enjoy being around who's willing to take you under their wing. Having a mentor, in my opinion, is the best way to get into Arm. You'll make mistakes with your character, but just as it is in the code, mistakes are how we learn. Be as fearful as your character would, but be bold enough to interact with the people and explore some of the game world. Don't be embarrassed to not know something, and know you will die. And for the love of all things holy, don't type like an LOLcat then except to get a lot of attention.

No matter how you slice it, Armageddon will require a chunk of time, can be very unapologetic to new players when they lose everything, and loses a lot of both old and new players. This doesn't mean the game isn't worth playing. On the contrary, it's the best roleplaying experience on the internet and worth debating over ways to improve it.

[Armaddict]

Unless characters become funner quicker, and unless staff more aggressively animate the game world, the game will continue a slow decline.

I don't think it's master skills that make a character fun.  However, the rest of your statement holds true to it anyway; if the thing that makes characters fun is contribution/being relevant, then adding content to the world, either via code or via steady and reliable staff involvement, is what will hold players.

Honestly, I'm a progression oriented, code oriented, skills oriented player, and the amount of times that people talk about skills as if your PC is utterly useless until 30 days is truly bugging the living fuck out of me.

[Feco]

Unless characters become funner quicker, and unless staff more aggressively animate the game world, the game will continue a slow decline.

I don't think it's master skills that make a character fun.  However, the rest of your statement holds true to it anyway; if the thing that makes characters fun is contribution/being relevant, then adding content to the world, either via code or via steady and reliable staff involvement, is what will hold players.

Honestly, I'm a progression oriented, code oriented, skills oriented player, and the amount of times that people talk about skills as if your PC is utterly useless until 30 days is truly bugging the living fuck out of me.

Yeah.  If you want to go stomp the biggest baddies alone, or tank the biggest baddies, or do some PKing where you're outnumbered, you need to be skilled as fuck.

Most of the normal and hard stuff people encounter, though, don't need that level of training.  This is even more true with skill-bumps in mind.

I do agree with a lot that's been said in this thread, though.

[Armaddict]

False.  I have anecdotal experiences that say otherwise, but you've certainly been locked into watching skills rise long enough to believe it's true.

However, I will say that it might be more true now than ever before...because everyone is convinced they need their skills higher.  At least on the PK front.

As far as making the standard 'I need to be able to solo meks and bahemets', that's a pretty head-in-the-clouds perspective to draw relevance from.

[Synthesis]

Technically, "hundreds of hours" is only about 10 days played.

10 days played is, indeed, the point at which an average PC breaks out of the noob zone with respect to combat and weapon skills.  (At 10 days played, you could be approaching or already into second-tier branched skills, with other skill types.)  If you've been really grinding hard, you might even be at mildly competent.  Skillwise, at 30 days, anyone who's been training hard is going to be skillmaxed for all intents and purposes, with the exception of maybe grinding out some bonus points in additional weapons or fighting styles, or training some of those hard-to-train skills.

It kind of annoys me that people get wrapped around the axle about the skillgain suggestions, and it dominates the discussion, when the problem is limited to combat and weapon skills, and even then it's only really a problem for warriors.  I had four other suggestions to offer.

[Lizzie]

TL;DR Hyzen -

The way you feel about the game is wrong, because other people have different experiences.

If you're being snide toward me, you can just give up. His *statement* is incorrect. His statement was: players require hundreds of hours invested into a PC before their PC is "competent."

That is not true. It's not an opinion, it's a statement. And the statement is false.