Staff, I want an open dialogue.

[Shoka Windrunner]

I've been playing this game since the mid 90s off and on.

I've seen somethings 'good' (favorable to me) and 'bad' (not favorable to me) from staff over all those years. Me's salon might be the only one who I remember from when I first made a character.

Anyway, I'm going to say I only read maybe half this thread, I just wanted to say something that may be a non sequitur but I think applies.

I've been a DM/GM for about 22 years. I once ran a game for 10 people and it was a nightmare even with a co-GM.  I can't imagine what it is like to do this with the largest split the group scenario possible even with all the co-GM people on staff.

I mean it has to be a nightmare most of the time.

I like to keep that in mind now that I have had that revelation when I get a response that seems curt or cutting.  Cause I kind of get it from my own experiences.

Also text is the worst manner in which to convey tone in communication.  Give responses the benefit of the doubt.

I'm willing to bet staffers have lost some of the fun and joy of the game since they have become staff.  So...just realize they are sacrificing the time they could be playing to try to entertain you?

My random 2 sids.

[Armaddict]

I'm completely okay with debating with staff on their decisions and policies and viewpoints on the game.

I'm completely not okay with calling the longstanding rules of the game dumb altogether, accusing staff of purposely fucking things up, people telling each other that the game is dying because they didn't get what they want, etc.

And therein lies the root of this thread, I think.  I generally have no problem getting 'open dialogue', it's just very frustrating when something can be very clear to me, but see the opposite of that vision of mine come to pass or be held more highly.  And as I said in my other post, I think that happens just as often with other players on the GDB as it does with staff, if not more...so I'm not sure why there's an expectation for staffers to see everything exactly the same way as every single player when there's so much diversity in our playerbase that we argue for pages on whether or not Zalanthans wipe shit with their left or right hand.

Edit:  It should be noted that the 'tone' of staff has indeed shifted drastically in my perception from days of yore.  That's something I would change if I could, but that's kind of weird thing to ask of a cycling staff.  My solution has been to be comfortable with my contribution to the game as me, and to only really engage staff in my events when necessary, or on a volunteer-to-do-work basis.  It means that my personal relationship with them is generally more distant, but it also means I'm a lot less subject to taking things poorly.  Of course, this may be because I'm okay with not having broad sweeping impacts on the game-world.  People like to play that up as if it was so easy before and it's not anymore, but it never really was.  The main difference is just that -small- change has been notarized to the point of being sluggish, making change itself a bad goal, and fitting into what's in place a more easily satisfied one.

[Raptor_Dan]

... My solution has been to be comfortable with my contribution to the game as me, and to only really engage staff in my events when necessary, or on a volunteer-to-do-work basis.  It means that my personal relationship with them is generally more distant, but it also means I'm a lot less subject to taking things poorly.  Of course, this may be because I'm okay with not having broad sweeping impacts on the game-world...

I scrolled over most of the arguing, especially any time I noticed a big generalization, speculation, something really vague, etc. It made the last three pages quite easy to read, skipping those.

Can BadSkeelz, Extraplanar, and Lizzie give me an estimation of how this, heh, 'open dialogue' is going so far? That'd give me a good cross section, methinks.

[Lizzie]

... My solution has been to be comfortable with my contribution to the game as me, and to only really engage staff in my events when necessary, or on a volunteer-to-do-work basis.  It means that my personal relationship with them is generally more distant, but it also means I'm a lot less subject to taking things poorly.  Of course, this may be because I'm okay with not having broad sweeping impacts on the game-world...

I scrolled over most of the arguing, especially any time I noticed a big generalization, speculation, something really vague, etc. It made the last three pages quite easy to read, skipping those.

Can BadSkeelz, Extraplanar, and Lizzie give me an estimation of how this, heh, 'open dialogue' is going so far? That'd give me a good cross section, methinks.

We've had "discussions" like this several times in the past. It's going pretty much how it always does. Every once in awhile people feel the need to vent. So they do. And that's fine. The thread will likely be dead before the weekend is over, because threads like these never last all that long. They just crop up a year or two later, with the same general complaints. It shouldn't be surprising really, since this is pretty much what happens on any game forum. It's not exclusive to Armageddon.

[ExtraPlanar]

... My solution has been to be comfortable with my contribution to the game as me, and to only really engage staff in my events when necessary, or on a volunteer-to-do-work basis.  It means that my personal relationship with them is generally more distant, but it also means I'm a lot less subject to taking things poorly.  Of course, this may be because I'm okay with not having broad sweeping impacts on the game-world...

I scrolled over most of the arguing, especially any time I noticed a big generalization, speculation, something really vague, etc. It made the last three pages quite easy to read, skipping those.

Can BadSkeelz, Extraplanar, and Lizzie give me an estimation of how this, heh, 'open dialogue' is going so far? That'd give me a good cross section, methinks.

roughly this:

[BadSkeelz]

... My solution has been to be comfortable with my contribution to the game as me, and to only really engage staff in my events when necessary, or on a volunteer-to-do-work basis.  It means that my personal relationship with them is generally more distant, but it also means I'm a lot less subject to taking things poorly.  Of course, this may be because I'm okay with not having broad sweeping impacts on the game-world...

I scrolled over most of the arguing, especially any time I noticed a big generalization, speculation, something really vague, etc. It made the last three pages quite easy to read, skipping those.

Can BadSkeelz, Extraplanar, and Lizzie give me an estimation of how this, heh, 'open dialogue' is going so far? That'd give me a good cross section, methinks.

Meh. Like Lizzie says, these threads come periodically. I would read Riev's posts if you want a more concise summation of one form of dissatisfaction. Not necessarily mine, but one I've seen in others too frequently of late.

Me? I don't know whether I'll play Stellaris or For Honor when I get home.

[Delirium]

I feel like some people will never be happy unless staff steps up and says "yes, we're corrupt horrible people who hate you and want to make your life miserable," and then they'll say, "AH HA, I KNEW IT ALL ALONG!", and then... well... then what?

The level of paranoia I see from some players is far beyond what I've ever, in my grouchiest moments, applied to staff.

Believe me, I've had it out with staff - you should see the way Nyr and I duked it out. You should've seen the grouchy griping and bitching I've done. Heck, you can, go look at my posts from a couple years ago. I've been there, and I've done that, the "being mad at the nebulous entity that is staff" thing. There's things I still get kinda angry about, years later, if I dwell on it, and start talking about it. So... I don't do that. That sort of stuff belongs in the past. Forgive, forget. That goes for both players and staff.

You can be angry that Tommy messed up your brand new couch when he got really drunk and puked on it, or you can realize shit happens and Tommy did pay for it to be cleaned so why hold it against him five years later? People make mistakes.

Thing is, there isn't a whole lot being angry will accomplish. Yeah, you can write in a request, and air things out - and that can be good, really, if you can keep a civil tongue and if your goal is actually to clear the air. In the end, though, the only thing that will help is this: be like Elsa and let that shit go. And that part, the letting go, is what I think people have so much trouble with.

If you let it go, and realize that hey, maybe that sense of drama and vindication just isn't worth it, you'll be happier.

Sometimes, we get frustrated because we've been around for Ages^(tm) and we remember things being this way, that way, the other way, and I do think that's something both camps can be aware of, and try to modulate some; when things change behind the scenes, make sure players know, if it will effect the way they've been used to operating - and veterans, just realize that the game is going to evolve in the 20+ years of its existence, and you can either accept that, and work with it... or not.

Sometimes, it's frustration that the game just doesn't fit in our life like it used to, for whatever reason it boils down to.

It's not always easy to remember the good stuff when it's human nature to focus on the bad. Moments of frustration or imperfect wording or differences of opinion over this or that get blown up to enormous magnification while all the good things get forgotten, or ignored. On both sides of the aisle. I've been accused of meaning ill when I actually meant well - of insulting people when I was trying to give honest, constructive feedback, and due to phrasing and timing, it was taken the opposite - it happens. Let it go.

So. I've seen a lot of positive come out of the current staff administration, and while I may have opinions or suggestions or disagreements with them, I've never felt punished for that. That's not very satisfying if I was someone looking for an excuse to be angry, or looking for justification to be still stewing over past hurts, but it's very satisfying if you're trying to...



So that's my advice to people pursuing an - let's be honest - ultimately pointless agenda among nerds on the internet.

[Reiloth]

I suppose the moral of the story is -- Every time this discussion comes up, it's usually surrounding a few veteran players leaving the game. Some of those players end up having enough distance from their issues with Staff that they end up coming back and sticking to playing the game. Maybe they'll be back in a year or two, or ten (in the case of Melkor). Maybe they won't. Losing players and veterans of this caliber makes to lessen the game itself. It seems a shame it's mostly due to attrition and butting heads with Staff.

It's ultimately a player's decision if they are going to continue playing ArmageddonMUD -- But on this two way street, there is quite a bit Staff could do to help their player retention and there is always work they could do with their optics (both in the request tool, and on the forum). Pushing players to the point of quitting is a net negative for the game, the players, and Staff. Maintaining an easy-going, kind, understanding attitude on both sides leads to a net positive.

I hope Staff takes a look at some of these grievances and discuss amongst themselves how they might better approach their communication with the player-base, via the Request Tool, directly with players. We can all spin a pretty picture on the GDB (or a picture that best suits us, myself included).

[BadSkeelz]

Also fuck magick.

[SuchDragonWow]

Well, you a lot of you guys seem very happy with things.  I'll just drop it.  Or let it go.  Whatever.

edited out a next level meme

[ExtraPlanar]

[sleepyhead]

I can't force myself to be enthusiastic about the game anymore. Of course, that street goes two ways. Staff can't make me be enthusiastic, either. I don't think I expect anyone from staff to say they are rotten, corrupt people, though. I guess I just want to see a commitment to empathy and a steering away from a punitive focus and towards nurturing a positive environment. Punishment should be geared towards preventing problems in the future, not towards proving power over someone or lessening their enjoyment of the game or hurting their experience. I'm not saying that's staff's mindset, but I do think they could keep the real purpose of punishment more in mind. They could reach out to players who feel slighted and at least show them that they understand their frustration and try to work with them to find a fair solution. I know some people will never think anything is fair if it doesn't go 100% their way, but I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about reasonable people who love this game and make an attempt to be communicative with staff and not antagonize.

I think we have enough players popping in and saying, "Look, it's hard to be staff. You should appreciate what they do and cut them some slack." I agree, but I don't think that every criticism I or others make of staff should have to be "balanced out" in that way. Any staff reading my request history will see that I have always tried my best to be respectful and understanding of the work load. I think I have said and done plenty to prove that I don't just have it out for staff and I'm not just looking for reasons to be angry and hate them.

I would be delighted to move on and forget about all of it. I'm trying to do that now. However, this thread exists and is relevant to my feelings about the game right now, so I'm posting on it.

Edit to add: It would be easy to look at my situation and think that sleepyhead is just a spoiled brat. I had six karma and I now have five--still way more than many will ever have. Big whoop. I had one character out of dozens stored that was a privilege to play to begin with. I was told I could work to earn back my karma and that I am still considered to be a good player overall. Maybe I am just hard to please. Maybe I do just want things to go exactly my way or I throw a tantrum. But I know there are others who have more reasonable complaints, and being able to listen to constructive criticism and evaluate it is important for any relationship, including the staff-player relationship.

[Nergal]

I've been pretty sick the past few days, and it's only getting worse, hence the lack of replies to this thread today. Sorry. I'm going to pop on to write a message now though.

So what I've noticed the past couple of years, and while studying similar issues, is that in a society which trends toward equal treatment for all, the people who were previously treated better than everyone else begin to feel discriminated against when they are treated equally to the people that were previously treated worse than everyone else.

It's no secret that longtime players of Armageddon and players that staff liked were given boons that other players did not get. I'm talking beyond the (ideally) meritocratic scale of the karma system, to outright favoritism on the side. When these players found that the rules are beginning to apply to them in ways they hadn't before, they tended to get annoyed that their special treatment was gone. Although equality is, on its face, a good thing, it's only really good for those who stand to gain from it, and not so much for those who stand to lose (except, perhaps, in their conscience).

So one main consequence of the game's administration becoming fairer (and as a side-effect, more bureaucratic) is that people who used to be able to cut the line, so to speak, weren't able to cut the line anymore. People who used to be able to get staff to look away when they broke a rule or when they outright lied about what they did or didn't do, weren't able to do that anymore.

A lot of veterans that leave due to unfair treatment are really leaving due to less favorable treatment - but they're getting the same treatment that newer players get, which is truly fair, though understandably frustrating to a player that once held privilege. And it still takes into account the length of time they put into the game, for example, by having the benefit of the doubt for an 8k player that breaks the rules just once. But when it keeps happening over and over, or when someone in a sponsored or otherwise limited role breaks the rules at all, it becomes a problem that staff needs to address and can't just be swept under the rug like it used to be. I'm slightly sympathetic toward that, but I think it's vastly preferable for the interests of retention to not have a privileged class of players that are judged differently from everyone else when they do something wrong.

I am, however, very sympathetic to veterans that just don't "feel it" anymore - who think the game itself is failing or stagnant, rather than the bureaucracy surrounding it. I think players who feel this way should say what they wish staff and other players would do to fix this problem, rather than just state it as fact. This goes beyond rule enforcement and communication with staff, to what's actually happening (or not happening) in game.

[Bahliker]

Delirium, I would be happy with an outcome that falls one (much less snarky) step short of that.

Please...

Stop pretending that every time a trusted, experienced, level-headed player expresses outrage over being steamrolled by a hamfisted staff decision, they're just being whiny.

Stop being okay with them leaving over it.

Stop reacting with a brush-off and a shrug to these numerous grievances over a dozen years, to the prevalent belief across the larger MUD community that Armageddon's single greatest flaw is its staff attitude.

Please stop insisting that it's the fault of the wronged player for taking their game too seriously. That mentality goes both ways. Cool your jets when you see a player doing dumb stuff. Say yes to lame ideas more often. Backspace across that store command the next time you think a plot went the wrong way and completely getting rid of it seems like an easy shortcut to fairness.

Loosen the moderation some. In October I joined the "what ever happened to" thread with two names. Nergal deleted one. No explanation. It wasn't exactly Voldemort, guys. I thought nothing of it at the time but after hearing "we don't moderate except when someone breaks the rules," I started to wonder. When does that actually apply? The same goes for the statement about force storage. Knowing some storage circumstances, I ask, "do they really believe that was AT ALL right, or does the secretive nature of the request tool mean they don't even have to care?"

Please reflect, guys. There's no reason not to take a step back and reconsider, at least for a few minutes, the remaining fragments of a possibly harmful staff culture.

[Nergal]

Without remembering your post, it was likely the name of a living character.

We're not going to discuss other players' situations on the GDB, as I've said multiple times. It would be appreciated if players, in turn, did not discuss their side of the story as if it was the only one, as this takes advantage of the fact that we're not going to have a counter-argument trying to explain, out of protecting player privacy.

[Bahliker]

If that character still lives I'll eat my hat. And nobody would even say so anyway, violating the rules about still-living characters, so why not just leave it unanswered? The point is, a heavy hand is used with less thought and careful regard than you seem to think.

[BadSkeelz]

I've seen post disappear that I then essentially repeat (maybe cut out a curse word or two) and they stick around. I don't have a ton of faith in the evenness of GDB moderating. Hell, I've never even been banned and I'm a neanderthal. Is it because I tend to adhere closer to Staff-line/"conventional wisdom" than others in some subjects (like whether to care about long-banned but crazy vindictive players)? Maybe.

[sleepyhead]

I've been pretty sick the past few days, and it's only getting worse, hence the lack of replies to this thread today. Sorry. I'm going to pop on to write a message now though.

I'm sorry. I'm in the same boat as you right now, and it's no fun. Get well soon.

So what I've noticed the past couple of years, and while studying similar issues, is that in a society which trends toward equal treatment for all, the people who were previously treated better than everyone else begin to feel discriminated against when they are treated equally to the people that were previously treated worse than everyone else.

I think you are right. I am no doubt one of those. I have acknowledged that I am a bit of a spoiled Arm brat who cries the first time she gets her dolly (deservedly) taken away. I'm sure that's a factor with others as well.

It's no secret that longtime players of Armageddon and players that staff liked were given boons that other players did not get. I'm talking beyond the (ideally) meritocratic scale of the karma system, to outright favoritism on the side. When these players found that the rules are beginning to apply to them in ways they hadn't before, they tended to get annoyed that their special treatment was gone. Although equality is, on its face, a good thing, it's only really good for those who stand to gain from it, and not so much for those who stand to lose (except, perhaps, in their conscience).

So one main consequence of the game's administration becoming fairer (and as a side-effect, more bureaucratic) is that people who used to be able to cut the line, so to speak, weren't able to cut the line anymore. People who used to be able to get staff to look away when they broke a rule or when they outright lied about what they did or didn't do, weren't able to do that anymore.

A lot of veterans that leave due to unfair treatment are really leaving due to less favorable treatment - but they're getting the same treatment that newer players get, which is truly fair, though understandably frustrating to a player that once held privilege. And it still takes into account the length of time they put into the game, for example, by having the benefit of the doubt for an 8k player that breaks the rules just once. But when it keeps happening over and over, or when someone in a sponsored or otherwise limited role breaks the rules at all, it becomes a problem that staff needs to address and can't just be swept under the rug like it used to be. I'm slightly sympathetic toward that, but I think it's vastly preferable for the interests of retention to not have a privileged class of players that are judged differently from everyone else when they do something wrong.

Are you sure it's all fair, though? Just because things are done according to a system doesn't mean the system itself is fair. I understand that a big reason you guys updated the rules recently was so that everyone knows where they stand and what happens when a rule is broken, so that no one can say they were treated unfairly. But reading those rules just makes me feel that the atmosphere here is oppressive and unforgiving. Is that what we want in the name of equal treatment?

I don't think there should be a privileged class of players, even if sometimes it makes me feel like I've had my dolly taken away. I think every player should be given the benefit of the doubt. However, I do think that a player's history should matter--if a person hasn't had any prior black marks, if they've always been respectful, if they've always tried to work with staff in a positive way without being demanding, shouldn't that count for something? I don't think we should hold people's prior behavior against them if they've made an effort to change, but I also think if someone has shown themselves to be a good person we should be assuming the worst of them. Here "assuming the worst" would mean insisting that you need to punish someone severely (or in a way they interpret as severely) in order to stop the behavior. Whether they are teacher's pets or not, I would personally advocate cutting players slack if they have shown themselves to be honest, forthcoming people that care about the state of the game.

Maybe that's unfair or favoritist. I don't know. But it seems a lot more human, and I think we need that humanity.

I am, however, very sympathetic to veterans that just don't "feel it" anymore - who think the game itself is failing or stagnant, rather than the bureaucracy surrounding it. I think players who feel this way should say what they wish staff and other players would do to fix this problem, rather than just state it as fact. This goes beyond rule enforcement and communication with staff, to what's actually happening (or not happening) in game.

So you would prefer if people communicated in a less overbearing "I'm-right-and-you're-wrong" way? The way people phrase things matters and makes an impression? Great. I think we are all in agreement here.

(Sorry for the snark, but I couldn't resist. Guess it's kind of ironic that I tried to make a point about being polite and sensitive by being an asshole, but oh well.)

[Nergal]

Bahliker: The point is that posters would draw attention to the fact that the character was still alive or had very recently died, whatever the case may be (whether you believe me is irrelevant to me - it's the only reason I'd moderate that thread, so make of my reasoning what you will).

Not every moderation is for rule-breaking, though every rule-breaking does get moderated. Not every moderation carries with it a punishment either. Sometimes we do need to suppress discussion of a character that is alive but no one knows is alive. In other words, don't take a post edit personally, and ask questions if it's unclear why a post was edited instead of letting it stew in your head for several months that you were wronged somehow.

[Jingo]

I think the moral of the story is that we're too damn invested in the game not to get worked up over it.

[Harmless]

Nergal, if you want to discuss other reasons why players leave the game, should we make a separate thread for discussing all the clan/city/race removals over time and discuss that, because that is also a very commonly cited reason for players leaving.

This thread is focused so far on staff/player trust and communication, so maybe it should be a new thread.

[lostinspace]

Most of my enthusiasm left with the magick main guilds. I've never seen myself as an excellent RPer but I did like to RP to fill in the time I wasn't skill grinding because that's where I get a lot of my enjoyment.

I've pretty much dropped Arm for a different mud at this point that I can skill grind in. I miss branching but it's not too hard to get skills on the new mud.

I know I haven't been around long enough to be spoiled, I think it's been about 3 years since I started playing. I just have 0 interest in noble/merchant characters or interactions with them, and that really seems to be where the game is headed. I'll just keep logging in sporadically to farm skills when I'm bored and to see what's going on. I continue to check these boards with hopes that there will be changes to the magick guilds or some other addition to the game that excites me.

[Bahliker]

Not sure if you're plain oblivious or too feverish to remember straight. I don't think you're outright lying. So I'll say get well soon. I too have been ill and it's such a miserable thing.

I wouldn't say I stewed about this. I assumed that it had to do with an uncomfortable situation caused by a problem player (the guy was a tool) and put it out of mind. Until this thread, and your claims herein, when it became clear that the only self-policing going on amounts to you saying that everything is fine and we just need to check our privilege.

Is this not why people go to jcarters forum? Raising issues in private isn't raising issues at all, and discussing them publicly, here, nets us little more than a firm denial that there's any current wrongndoing.

[Delirium]

Delirium, I would be happy with an outcome that falls one (much less snarky) step short of that.

See...? Phrasing! (Are we still doing phrasing?)

I was trying to be lighthearted and straightfoward and it was taken as being snarky - so - that just goes to show.

If you have a legitimate gripe - and they absolutely do exist - then discuss it with staff. Stay levelheaded, stay polite, and you WILL make progress. But staff is not our punching dummy (and players are not staff's punching dummy, either). We all get frustrated, and ideally, we should handle that however it most effectively keeps us from doing and saying unwise things... but staying frustrated is problematic. Staying frustrated over something that has happened and can't be changed is self-defeating. Grandstanding about it on the GDB isn't really going to accomplish anything but cause people to oooh and aaah and break out the popcorn. That's of course, like, my opinion, man.

[Nergal]

Not sure if you're plain oblivious or too feverish to remember straight. I don't think you're outright lying. So I'll say get well soon. I too have been ill and it's such a miserable thing.

I wouldn't say I stewed about this. I assumed that it had to do with an uncomfortable situation caused by a problem player (the guy was a tool) and put it out of mind. Until this thread, and your claims herein, when it became clear that the only self-policing going on amounts to you saying that everything is fine and we just need to check our privilege.

Is this not why people go to jcarters forum? Raising issues in private isn't raising issues at all, and discussing them publicly, here, nets us little more than a firm denial that there's any current wrongndoing.

It's disappointing that that's what you got out of my effort to dialogue with you and with players here but I can accept that you disagree. I have said multiple times that staff are still imperfect and need a responsible playerbase to check our power through reasonable discourse.