Staff, I want an open dialogue.

[Jihelu]

At least someone is attempting to quell the "uprising" that is "some people feel slighted". I have a lot comments about things, and how things "were" done, but I'll just drop this little anecdote.

I once played a Jihaen Templar, in Tuluk. There was a bit of a mess, the entire staff that "approved" me quit, and I was left to Nyr (who, honestly, was fine with me in that role). However, I stored because I felt I wasn't the person he wanted in the role, and I had no support as our times didn't match up.

A while later, there was another Templar call, and I was considering re-applying, since staff had rotated and it wasn't Nyr covering the whole sphere. So I poked onto the (then) online docs on the website that were password protected, to try and get some inspiration for the role, see if it really was something I wanted to do. Unbeknownst to me, some other people were accessing the online docs as well, who shouldn't have been.

I got imm-poofed by One Who Shall Not Be Named and it wasn't a questioning. It wasn't a calm interview. It was a staffer threatening to perma-ban me from the game, because they 'knew' I was handing out the password to people, and 'had IP addresses to confirm I was accessing them myself'. I felt both persecuted, and that nothing I was saying was taken into account. Staff "knew" this, and "knew" that, and even after I tried to explain, it seemed as though clearly I was an untrustworthy player.

This was some time ago, but this staffer still exists, and I'm sure the situation would happen again if the docs weren't "better" controlled by the GDB. I've had a real hard time trusting staff since then, and it isn't easy to "just get over it".

That's kinda fucked up tbh.

[Nergal]

At least someone is attempting to quell the "uprising" that is "some people feel slighted". I have a lot comments about things, and how things "were" done, but I'll just drop this little anecdote.

I once played a Jihaen Templar, in Tuluk. There was a bit of a mess, the entire staff that "approved" me quit, and I was left to Nyr (who, honestly, was fine with me in that role). However, I stored because I felt I wasn't the person he wanted in the role, and I had no support as our times didn't match up.

A while later, there was another Templar call, and I was considering re-applying, since staff had rotated and it wasn't Nyr covering the whole sphere. So I poked onto the (then) online docs on the website that were password protected, to try and get some inspiration for the role, see if it really was something I wanted to do. Unbeknownst to me, some other people were accessing the online docs as well, who shouldn't have been.

I got imm-poofed by One Who Shall Not Be Named and it wasn't a questioning. It wasn't a calm interview. It was a staffer threatening to perma-ban me from the game, because they 'knew' I was handing out the password to people, and 'had IP addresses to confirm I was accessing them myself'. I felt both persecuted, and that nothing I was saying was taken into account. Staff "knew" this, and "knew" that, and even after I tried to explain, it seemed as though clearly I was an untrustworthy player.

This was some time ago, but this staffer still exists, and I'm sure the situation would happen again if the docs weren't "better" controlled by the GDB. I've had a real hard time trusting staff since then, and it isn't easy to "just get over it".

Sorry, I don't really know anything about that situation. All I can say is that I don't see any reference to it in your account notes or player notes, so it's almost certainly forgotten about on our end. Like I said earlier in the thread, feel free to discuss it with me via e-mail or expound further here.

[Malken]

I think that one of the problem is that every six months we are told that 'things are better' than they used to be staff-wise and that problems from the past shouldn't be repeated again in the future because X or Y was put in place to prevent this. Then a few months later someone posts a log or a post of an example of a Staff member totally losing it once more and we are once again told six months later that things are much better than they used to be.

I appreciate that you are posting in this thread Nergal, and of course, you cannot be blamed for what happened with different staff members or in the past, but I hope you understand that we, as players, are overly cynical when we are told that Staff are much easier to communicate with nowadays and that they are willing to listen to the complains that we may have.

Just as an example, I and many other have had their Staff complaint against Nyr being answered by Nyr himself, I mean, come on. Then we often hear about Nessalin (who I have nothing against) but who seems to be part of a totally different Staff team and never communicates with the rest of the team when he makes a decision. These are still lingering examples/gossips/stories that don't go away very easily and that tends to linger FOR A REASON.

Also, thank you for not locking/deleting this thread, there's some iffy stuff being talked about that would have been locked away a long time ago under different circumstances/staff members.

[Nergal]

No problem. I don't plan on locking/deleting the thread as long as discussion remains civil.

We have self-imposed rules that state that staff complaints can't be resolved by the staff member they are directed at. These rules are relatively new (within the past couple years). Generally speaking, staff complaints are only resolved by producers. Sometimes that is not always possible - for example, if only one producer is on duty at a given time and a staff complaint comes in against them. Or if a request is asking for the response of a particular staff member and isn't a "complaint" per se. Or if a staff complaint is directed at the entire staff team, or no specific staff member.

Unfortunately the system isn't perfect. But I stand by my statement that things are improving and that players are treated fairly in accordance with the effort they put in to dialogue.

There are 73,373 requests going back to 2006, and 277 are staff complaints. That's less than a half of a percent of all correspondences on file in the past eleven years - if even all of them were mishandled, there's very little mishandling happening. It is very easy to be cynical and very hard to be perfect, but the fact of the matter is that you hear about the 0.01% of the times when communication breaks down, and even then you only hear one side of it. You generally don't hear about 99.9% of the times that communication goes smoothly. That is because it is human nature to focus on bad news, and not make a show of patting ourselves on the back when we do things correctly.

[Raptor_Dan]

Also, thank you for not locking/deleting this thread, there's some iffy stuff being talked about that would have been locked away a long time ago under different circumstances/staff members.

Things are getting better!

Lol. Just throwing this out there, I am NOT one of those players that are easy to talk to, imho, and I constantly shit-mail the staff just to be a dick. It's funny, to me, that Staff likely can't confirm or deny this without going into details. (I'm a little drunk off bloodless, so bear with me, I think I have a point.) Oh, yes, I remember now. Okay, some stuff is hard to get over, and we're all 'Unresolved, unresolved!' and 'I can't just /get over it/'. Well, don't get over it. Keep documentation of all interaction (Always, always, log everything in game that you can.) And, periodically, there will be chances, like right now because of this open dialogue thread, (I don't agree with Asche's wishes, but I'll be damned if it didn't turn into a good thing) that you CAN get some hope at a resolution by starting up the conversation with, 'Hey, some shit went down, and I don't feel good about it. What can we do?'

Things never get better one-sidedly, and if they're going to get better, we have to approach things with that expectation in mind. Text might be a hard format to decipher tone, (I'm screaming at the top of my lungs right now), but it can sometimes be glaringly obvious when someone expects nothing good to happen, and it doesn't actually help the situation... Hmmm.... I'm wondering now if that was a clear or coherent point. (Seriously, like, a pint of blood)

Thanks Nergal, for being all administrator/producer/staff like, and also for not reporting me for those horrid emails I sent you when I was drunk. Also for continuing this discussion like an adult.

For more info on Raptor_Dan's maturity, please check the following website:
http://cycles.westinmathies.com/Info_Pages.asp?ptype=Velociraptor_Cycl

[Malken]

It is very easy to be cynical and very hard to be perfect, but the fact of the matter is that you hear about the 0.01% of the times when communication breaks down, and even then you only hear one side of it. You generally don't hear about 99.9% of the times that communication goes smoothly. That is because it is human nature to focus on bad news, and not make a show of patting ourselves on the back when we do things correctly.

True and I totally believe that.

[BadSkeelz]

I'd be a liiiittle wary of looking at number of requests and drawing conclusions strictly from that. I'm sure I'm not the only player who prefers to just officially not talk to Staff, whether because I don't think my irritations are grounds for a formal complaint or I just don't think it'd accomplish anything. The latter's especially true when the root cause are just personality or playstyle differences.

[Malken]

I'd be a liiiittle wary of looking at number of requests and drawing conclusions strictly from that. I'm sure I'm not the only player who prefers to just officially not talk to Staff, whether because I don't think my irritations are grounds for a formal complaint or I just don't think it'd accomplish anything. The latter's especially true when the root cause are just personality or playstyle differences.

Yeah but I think this is what we also do in general. Like if something minor happens to me, instead of complaining and having to deal with the complaint department, a manager or a return service, I'll just say fuck it instead of having to deal with what could be a bad experience. If I find a hair in my soup I'll probably just say fuck it and not eat the soup instead of calling the manager and risk making things worse for me (the waiter might then be totally upset and spit in my new soup, who knows!).

Not trying to make it sound like Staff are saints but I think it's human nature that we usually try to avoid what could turn into a shitty experience, especially if we've experienced it before.

I also much prefer not to deal with Staff unless I -really- have to and then I just assume I'll get a bad experience out of it 85% of the time.

[titansfan]

I have had issues with only two staff since I started in 2007ish?

And yet I still find myself not communicating with them unless I'm in a sponsored role.  I fully understand this means they can't really have an opinion of me as a player, but I prefer to come and go without bios every week on an unplanned pc. It's also why I like playing elves, dwarves, and half giants as I don't have to really touch base with anyone unless I have to. My point is, staff don't have to be bad for some people to simply not want to send in requests or reports a ton unless absolutely necessary.  The staff are a metric ton better than they used to be and they do deserve credit for that. 

The lack of player base I believe is greatly due to a pessimistic view our current player base gives on a general basis here in the gdb. We need to work towards improvement without being condescending. 

Same goes for staff, but I feel many more players are disrespectful than staff.

[Riev]

There are 73,373 requests going back to 2006, and 277 are staff complaints. That's less than a half of a percent of all correspondences on file in the past eleven years - if even all of them were mishandled, there's very little mishandling happening. It is very easy to be cynical and very hard to be perfect, but the fact of the matter is that you hear about the 0.01% of the times when communication breaks down, and even then you only hear one side of it. You generally don't hear about 99.9% of the times that communication goes smoothly. That is because it is human nature to focus on bad news, and not make a show of patting ourselves on the back when we do things correctly.

Its a bit misleading, as BadSkeelz said, to look at the data this way. 8 Sponsored roles (sometimes in just one city) account for a weekly report, over 52weeks x 10 years.

Not to mention, I know PERSONALLY that sometimes if I have a complaint, I would never file it, because of rumors that the person I'm complaining about gets to shut it down (not anymore, granted). If you've had 277 complaints, and they came from 5 people? That's a problem. If they came from 50+? There's a REAL problem.

[Nergal]

I can't measure something that doesn't happen, e.g. how often players hesitate to submit a request or how many players don't talk to staff out of fear of getting an undesirable response, because there's no count of people who log into the request tool and have second thoughts about writing something and no count of players who don't submit requests. All I can tell you is based on what actually happens, based on people who do do things, and who do try to communicate.

The truth is you don't know what sort of response you'll get unless you actually attempt to communicate. So my word of advice would be to actually try, and judge for yourself how that works out for you, instead of going off the experience of others and your experience with past staff as a measure of what will always happen 100% of the time.

[Riev]

No, but you can not mis-represent the data and say "Look how few requests we get". I know it's not on purpose, but the way you represent the data suggests that so few people complain that its almost a non-issue. If you want to get a true representation of the data, find out how many of those 277 "complaints" that got filed were from unique users.

And yes, we can't "know" how things are going to be, going forward. Things are getting better, but staff has to know they'll always be haunted by the past. Especially when we aren't talking about Sanvean-past, we're talking within 5years.

[Nergal]

I brought up the data not to say that so few people complain that it's a non-issue, but very specifically:

if even all of them were mishandled, there's very little mishandling happening.

Every complaint is potentially an issue. I am not trying to minimize anything about the number of complaints, I am trying to say that by and large, staff handle requests responsibly, and that it would be rather silly to assume that all 277 staff complaints we have gotten were just brushed aside.

[Riev]

I suppose the definition of "mishandling" would have to be determined, first, because 277 lodged complaints over a 10 year span in a game that has 200 unique players on average seems atrocious to me. However, I'd be willing to bet a large chunk of them are because the same player/user submits 4-5 whereas others only get a complaint in a rare once-in-a-while.

To me, the "mishandling" isn't in the requests. You handle thousands of requests, clearly they aren't being brushed off. But the "Complaint" category has had some mis-handling in the past, been brushed aside, taken as "just an over-emotional player looking to 'get their way'". I know I've had problems with staff because they tell me that things are a certain way, ICly, and yet someone in game tells me "they've never done it that way" (see smuggling and argosies).

Again though, 277 lodged complaints against staff over 10 years... that's 27 complains a year. 2 a month. I'm pretty certain most of the, ebb and flow around particular ban-waves, but that's a lot of complaints.

[Nergal]

Complaints absolutely vary on the amount of merit they hold. Without posting specific examples, plenty of complaints are submitted just as a last fuck-you to troll staff on the way out the door. Those are handled with the same regard as complaints with actual merit, and generate the same discussion on the back-end.

Going beyond that would take us to the impasse of having to post examples to explain things further, which I'm not willing to do. I will agree with you that the past does loom over things. I'm not sure what I can say to make someone feel better if they feel that things are done the same way as five years ago, or even one year ago, or if someone feels so traumatized or bitter by how things were done in the past that they're not willing to accept amends in the future. The flip-side to this sentiment would be if staff had a problematic player in the past and proceeded to treat all players as problem players. That doesn't seem fair at all, does it? So why is it fair to firmly hold the opinion that the past informs the present in negative ways?

[BadSkeelz]

I'd wager a not insignificant chunk of "complaints" take place in Character Reports as well, where it's a back and forth. Certainly those have been the scene of my more contentious staff discussions.

[Riev]

The flip-side to this sentiment would be if staff had a problematic player in the past and proceeded to treat all players as problem players. That doesn't seem fair at all, does it? So why is it fair to firmly hold the opinion that the past informs the present in negative ways?

Strictly speaking, because you as staff are part of an organization whose behavior represents the whole of the organization. We are your customers. Your consumers. While the model is different in that we produce and consume products (plots) from other players, staff are supposed to be representative of what the players should expect for their investment.

I know it seems rather pedantic, but "we're all players" is a decent enough saying, until it matters that we are NOT all players. Some of us are staff members, who voluntarily took the reins to be better, to serve the community and the organization. Over time, things HAVE gotten better and its clear that at certain times, the 'higher ups' actually take the game seriously.

If you were in Customer Service, no it would not be fair to "assume" all clients are idiots because one or two bad apples drive you nuts. However, if you are a terribly bad representative of Customer Service, the "good" customers can only assume you have bad business practices and are unlikely too call. *cough* Comcast *cough

[Akaramu]

I'd wager a not insignificant chunk of "complaints" take place in Character Reports as well, where it's a back and forth. Certainly those have been the scene of my more contentious staff discussions.

This.

We should also consider that staff gets to have 'water cooler chat' that players don't have access to. It stands to reason that when in doubt, staff will side with staff over a player, and could be another reason why some players don't file staff complaints.

[Jihelu]

"The flip-side to this sentiment would be if staff had a problematic player in the past and proceeded to treat all players as problem players. That doesn't seem fair at all, does it? So why is it fair to firmly hold the opinion that the past informs the present in negative ways?"

I was under the assumption people were talking about treating staff who treated them like poo like poo. Or just avoiding them to avoid the poo.
Not
"Nergal was mean to me therefor I hate Rath"

Or maybe I missread.



As for why there might not be as many staff complaints.
Simply saying that staff won't work on their own complaint doesn't take away the fact that staff is staff. I'm not saying there is some huge conspiracy where all staff wants to kill my half elf psionicist defiler but I am saying that they probably do.
My criminal law/ex police chief teacher said it best.
"Whenever we had a complaint we would have someone outside of our station come and review it to avoid looking biased. We could have done it our selves but we didn't"

....
Though usually this space would be filled with the "So what do we do" part.
I have no idea. Less Tektolnes himself starts doing staff complaints.

[Aruven]

WHOA this thread is happening. Cool.

I've been playing for 13 years. (On and Off)

My biggest complaint (and i've said this multiple times via staff request) is some areas of the game that were legendary status that I really wanted to explore (It wasn't easy starting at 13?) are no longer around, or at least the original places. Ok. I'll live.

I've had some amazing times with the staff. I also know that a lot of the staff I have seen are players that I have had amazing good RP with in the past.  Good storytellers. I've also had staff comment on my account, tell me i'm a sub-par role player, and pretty much tell me they regret other staff decisions to see me in certain roles (sponsored). Shit I could choose to either grow from or absorb negatively. I've even had other players here (ones still around) personally attack my career and insult my military service because they disagreed with something I was saying, be it about the game or politically. People can be dicks, folks. You just gotta have grit sometime. You show yourself to the world sometimes it swings.

I also know some of those players I really enjoyed left and have a presence on the shadowboards (And staff? Wasn't Jcarter a staff member??). I don't go and engage them there because of the ramifications potentially here. I know I miss at least a few of them. I am curious about what their population is at this point.

I'm a little frustrated about some of the long term players I notice pretending the numbers isn't an issue. - Although, for me the game is not being ruined or anything by lower numbers.

You can invest significant periods of time with other people and actually make friendships you roleplay through, its a game, but an invested one with a unique model. People here have made real life connections, friendships, marriages, etc.

I feel like I notice the staff being far more receptive in recent years. I see nergal out in the streets doing work a lot. I see staff currently being communicative via w/e petty ass request I send into them. I see Ness dropping updates on the staff forum, submission requests, code updates. Things we should rightly be offering some major props for, even though we are having growing pains.

One day maybe we can talk about Tuluk again ; I feel like the game lost a lot during those decisions being made, and I felt very much that they were forced decisions that left a lot of northern players with a real, juicy shit feeling in their mouth afterwards.

What I see here is a long train of years of communications between staff and players who want to pretend sometimes they aren't the same humans trying to facilitate the same game. Things aren't -in the past-, or now, or in the future, they are. We're still doing this together or the game is dead, right? And I see staff setting their boundaries but pretty much having the dialogue without saying "We are having dem dialogues how bout dah"

As for OP request ;

Asche, it sounds like some of those folks abroad can put in requests and maybe hash some things out if they want to return. I will defend the volunteers on staff and the GDB on one point... These people ARE volunteers no matter how they got their positions, and they aren't sponges for anger absorption. Yes, staff could be better sometimes about 'de-escalation' via responses. We ALL KNOW which staff generally weren't good at that, no biggie. Maybe that wasn't their strength.

It looks like shadowboard folks that didn't outright pillage, plunder, and hack have an opportunity here. Mission accomplished?

[Wystan]

Things are getting better, but staff has to know they'll always be haunted by the past.

This prompted me to respond.

I'm Wystan. I'm a newer member of staff, having been on a little less than 6 months. However, I have read requests and complaints going back years. My aim was specifically to learn from the mistakes of the past so I don't repeat them.

It's true that members of staff over the years have made mistakes. Members of staff will make mistakes in the future. My own share of mistakes will be among them. We are, like everyone, fallible humans. We won't always be perfect. We can only try to be fair, try to hold each other accountable, try to reach consensus on solutions, seriously consider player objections and feedback, and hope that when we do make a mistake, the player remains open to repairing the relationship.

I can tell you that today's staff does hold each other accountable. We don't shy from voicing our concern when one of us feels an issue could be resolved with greater sensitivity or fairness. And we do solicit feedback from our colleagues when making decisions. There is not often a need to voice concerns, however. I've been impressed with how much today's staff cares about the player experience. My fellow staff members and I want you to feel empowered, respected, and listened to. This won't happen 100% of the time, but we do try. We do value you and want your experience to be a good one.

It would be naive for me to think the mistakes of the past don't still rent space in the heads of some players. I accept that's something we will have to struggle against, regardless of how fair it may be that a past I didn't participate in may color interactions I have with players.

But I urge you to accept that "staff" isn't a monolith. Staff rosters change, staff policies change, staff culture changes, and individuals on staff grow over time.

What I need from you is to trust me when I say staff culture, and the game, is heading in a positive direction. I wouldn't spend my time on it if it wasn't, and I wouldn't ask you to spend your time on it either.

If you've been burned, give it another chance. Just play the game and try to have fun. We'll support you, and I bet you will.

[Akaramu]

Thanks for sharing, Wystan. Much appreciated.

[sleepyhead]

I appreciate the insight into staff-side, Wystan. However, it does seem like sometimes staff members take things personally when a player screws up and the focus becomes "how do we punish this person" rather than "how can we make a crap situation better?" Don't get me wrong, sometimes punishment is the best way to handle something, but I think if a player shows a genuine willingness to improve and make amends, all punishment serves to do is sour their experience and make the aforementioned crap situation even crappier.

I think one way to help improve that bad taste that is created is to give a player a small amount of choice about what kind of punishment they will receive. That makes them feel less like they are being marched into time out by the ear and more like they are a part of an adult discussion over how to handle discipline. For example, you might give a player a choice between a short-term ban and force storage.

But...maybe that's why I am not staff.

EDIT: Actually, before I am corrected--I know exactly why I am not staff and it's because I screwed up in the recent past.

[Raptor_Dan]

Thanks for sharing, Wystan. Much appreciated.

Much love for the young blood.

[Brokkr]

Wystan's words echo what many of mine would have been.  The other words are:

I've been playing this MUD for over 20 years.  I've been on staff for just over two years.  I've been impressed with what is in place for staff, and just how accountable they are.  I've also come to appreciate that to keep staff as a whole maintaining a professional demeanor means that players will not get a view into the decision making process.

For 90%+ of the time I have spent here, I have been where you are as a player.  I get that it can be frustrating.  None of us want it to be frustrating.  Sometimes we simply can't tell you the piece that might make it a little less frustrating for you.  Sometimes we are just being human, and making the little and large errors/omissions/differentdecisions that come along with that.

Just while I have been on staff, we've had several different Producers.  Only one of the Admins is the same as when I started.  I started as Southern Staff (still am in that group) and the entire staffing team for Southern except for myself has changed (a couple of times).  This has introduced a lot of new ideas, and a lot of different perspectives on things.  And that makes me excited for the future.