Staff, I want an open dialogue.

[Feco]

I'm not trying to be a contrarian or argumentative, nor am I trying to be a staff pet, but based on my experiences, I can't imagine what it is staff could have done to drive players away like that .. and I interact with staff a lot.  I put in waaaaay too many requests, and wish up what I assume is a fair amount.

The "worst" interactions I've had with staff have been radio silence.  Even then, though, I always assumed that this was because (1) they were just having behind the scenes convos about my stuff, or (2) they were just busy doing other shit, which happens to me all the time.

This is in 7 years of playing, too.  Not really a small amount of time.  What sort of shit could possibly lead to this game-leaving response?

[ExtraPlanar]

@Riev: I guess you're right, I think I had a kind of different time-frame in my head for what a "veteran" would be.

I sometimes feel tempted to reply more to this thread, but my interactions with staff tends to be few and far between (and positive) besides the odd special app as I tend to stay away from sponsored roles/leadership positions/big plots. (Hopefully this'll change over the next year though).

I'm happy to see such open conversation and opinion-airing on staff-player dynamics. First time I've seen it on the GDB.

[Riev]

This is in 7 years of playing, too.  Not really a small amount of time.  What sort of shit could possibly lead to this game-leaving response?

You could be more imaginative. I'm not saying these things HAVE happened, but:

• Shutting down a long-running personal PC plot because it 'would affect too many things'.
• Being told you will be forcibly stored because a (v)NPC saw you doing something a RL month ago.
• BEING forcibly stored because you did something against documentation, but hadn't been informed or given a course of correction.
• Working hard to get something changed in game, having PC leadership behind your efforts, and materials/other PCs involved, only to be told "your character hasn't been around long enough in an OOC manner to affect this change".
• Having a staff-played (n)PC kill your character as part of a plot you only stepped in to the RL day before, by joining a clan (ex: Joining Salarr, they won't pay the Guild, Guild sends message by killing new recruits)

Some of these have happened. Some of them haven't. Others are partial truths. All of them, in my opinion, would cause someone to leave the game.

[Rathustra]

I put in waaaaay too many requests, and wish up what I assume is a fair amount.

[BadSkeelz]

I don't know if it's your intention Rathustra but you kind of look like you're high-fiving the first poster to disagree with the "Staff interactions soured me on the game narrative." It doesn't really help Feco's cause.

Frankly I think Staff post way too much on the GDB as staff.

[Akaramu]

I'm not trying to be a contrarian or argumentative, nor am I trying to be a staff pet, but based on my experiences, I can't imagine what it is staff could have done to drive players away like that .. and I interact with staff a lot.  I put in waaaaay too many requests, and wish up what I assume is a fair amount.

I can imagine it. However, I'm happy to say that for many, many years - after the first force storage, which was actually kind of justified except for the terrible miscommunication about why it had to happen - I had nothing but pleasant interactions with staff. I don't know how many years, but it must have been something like 5 or 6, until like... 2010 maybe?

I also recommend they stop jumping to conclusions about a player's motivations, and take them at their word, if they've been nothing but honest, forthcoming, and empathetic towards you in the past.

This, 10 times. If this was true, I never would have had to appeal to the Producers to prove my innocence in that one case. And if staff had trusted my character reports from the beginning, and not just after the Producers went digging, a lot of things... would have gone much smoother for everyone involved.

[Malken]

I don't know if it's your intention Rathustra but you kind of look like you're high-fiving the first poster to disagree with the "Staff interactions soured me on the game narrative." It doesn't really help Feco's cause.

Frankly I think Staff post way too much on the GDB as staff.

Speaking of jumping to conclusions about staff's motivations, you kind of look like you totally missed Rathustra's joke ...

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah, I know, it's about Feco's amount of requests.

I still think it's a distracting post to make, at best.

[Malken]

Yeah, I know, it's about Feco's amount of requests.

I still think it's a distracting post to make, at best.

Write a staff complaint then, and as a bonus you'll get to see what kind of response you get and if that thread led to any useful changes in how Staff handles those complaints heheh

[BadSkeelz]

I've never filed one before so I'm afraid any comparison would be lost on me.

I know that any disgruntlement that I personally feel towards staff is really just my dissatisfaction with the game at large, and they provide a useful personified target. I know I haven't had any real negative interactions through the request tool because it's been almost a year since I seriously used it. I get more bummed out because my friends are bummed out.

[Malken]

I know that any disgruntlement that I personally feel towards staff is really just my dissatisfaction with the game at large, and they provide a useful personified target. I know I haven't had any real negative interactions through the request tool because it's been almost a year since I seriously used it. I get more bummed out because my friends are bummed out.

I feel the same.

I don't really have any negative comments to make about Staff but at the same time I have absolutely no interest in playing the game again because there's a general 'blah' atmosphere that's been slowly persisting with the game in general.

[titansfan]

I personally do not think the game is in a persistent blah. If anything its because some players are dead set that the staff are ruining the game/out to get them/etc etc and they are being extremely vocal about it in a pessimistic way. That's what puts the game in the gutter. This dialogue here has been the first remotely 'positive' open discussion I've seen from either side in a LONG time. The first step is steering into positivity and understanding, second step is continued build up of the positive environment.

I've loved this game in every one of its changes for different reasons.  Now it's time for veterans to bring the player side to life and let staff do their thing.  Does this mean don't question things? No, questioning is good, be open and be curious.  Does this mean staff can make no mistakes? No they ares human and they will, but we need to be clear when something upsets us and why. I know I want to start something up that brings fun to the game, not sit back and complain.

Just my two cents.

[Reiloth]

I'm not trying to be a contrarian or argumentative, nor am I trying to be a staff pet, but based on my experiences, I can't imagine what it is staff could have done to drive players away like that .. and I interact with staff a lot.  I put in waaaaay too many requests, and wish up what I assume is a fair amount.

The "worst" interactions I've had with staff have been radio silence.  Even then, though, I always assumed that this was because (1) they were just having behind the scenes convos about my stuff, or (2) they were just busy doing other shit, which happens to me all the time.

This is in 7 years of playing, too.  Not really a small amount of time.  What sort of shit could possibly lead to this game-leaving response?

Example: I had a PC force stored, though I broke no rules of the game.
Staff Hardline: "We don't store PCs unless they break a rule of the game".

How does that engender trust with the community?

Example: Staff asks for my side of a story. I give my side of the story, taking the time to really go through it.
Staff: "We don't believe you. These are flimsy excuses."

How do you respond to that?

These are gross over simplifications, but I understand 'airing dirty laundry' on the GDB is poor form. Alluding to vague details also comes off as bashing Staff instead of giving honest feedback. However -- Staff Complaints yield zero results, as Staff isn't accountable to the player community (the player community can't force store a Staff member). So with a zero sum game, I feel the only option is to call out Staff on being hypocritical.

Another example -- I was banned from the GDB for a week after stating 'maybe we should post our opinions on the shadow board, then'. I've never posted on the Shadow Board, but was banned for alluding to possibly posting on the shadow board. After attempting to post a retort to my ban on an alternate account, both accounts were banned for a month. I was told in my ban message it was 'unwise' to post such hyperbole, especially considering I am an ex-Staff member.

There are three veterans that I can count that have left the game in the last couple of months due to their interactions with Staff (among other things, like, life) -- Does Staff have an honest, heartfelt response to this, or are they going to just post GIF memes?

[BadSkeelz]

I personally do not think the game is in a persistent blah. If anything its because some players are dead set that the staff are ruining the game/out to get them/etc etc and they are being extremely vocal about it in a pessimistic way. That's what puts the game in the gutter. This dialogue here has been the first remotely 'positive' open discussion I've seen from either side in a LONG time. The first step is steering into positivity and understanding, second step is continued build up of the positive environment.

I've loved this game in every one of its changes for different reasons.  Now it's time for veterans to bring the player side to life and let staff do their thing.  Does this mean don't question things? No, questioning is good, be open and be curious.  Does this mean staff can make no mistakes? No they ares human and they will, but we need to be clear when something upsets us and why. I know I want to start something up that brings fun to the game, not sit back and complain.

Just my two cents.

The problem with dissatisfaction is that it builds up over time. It's never just one bad interaction or one change we disagree with. I don't think code changes even have a lot to do with player dissatisfaction. I think the perceived stagnation of the game world (for which Staff can be held at least partially responsible) and the Meta Plot is a bigger issue. For a couple of years now there's been fitful or localized progression (which is great if you're there to see it), but also what looked like Staff impetus to keep players on relatively narrow rails. For players who wanted to be the changemakers, it's discouraging. For players who want to just go along for the ride, it's discouraging to hear Staff don't want to run plots for the clan because we didn't meet expectations of behavior on the previous one. I think these are a minority of actions in the grand scheme of things, but negativity adds up and has a lot of inertia.

Even though I know for a fact that there are Staff and players making things happen in game, I personally find it difficult to log in and go find those things. Ironically the only thing that gets me in to the game recently is OOC prodding to login and see something unknown.

I want to continue playing Arm, but between this malaise of mine, lack of inspiration, and a slew of games that do a lot of things better it's tough to find my own motivation.

[Malken]

I personally do not think the game is in a persistent blah.

Just my two cents.

That's your opinion and unfortunately, your opinion alone that the game is doing well isn't going to get me back into the game. Before I even think about dedicating the amount of hours required to even start enjoying Armageddon on a daily/weekly basis, I need to 'feel' that my investment will be worth it. I gauge this kind of feeling from what I read on the GDB and from what my friends tell me (no, no big secrets, don't worry - beside, is there even any big secrets to talk about??). If the general 'feeling' of the GDB and that my friends are that nothing is happening in the game and that Arm has slowly turned into a giant and very well-described chatroom, then it certainly doesn't make me even want to try it out again. If all I see on the GDB are the usual parties/card games/auctions RPTs, then no, that doesn't want to make me want to log into the game either.

I need to 'feel' like something is happening, something grand or something super interesting that I just want to be part of it. I haven't felt that way in months and each time I give the game another shot, I just end up bored and as disappointed as I was before creating another character to give it yet another shot.

Storytellers should be made to tell a story, not to react to player's stories. They are storytellers, not story-reactors (man, this is beautiful, I'm totally trademarking this line)

[Feco]

Thanks for sharing, everyone.

Also:

I put in waaaaay too many requests, and wish up what I assume is a fair amount.

[SuchDragonWow]

I feel the only good solution now is yearly staff elections.  But we're going to need some good protections against voter fraud ...

[BadSkeelz]

#BannedPlayersMatter

because I only need one shitpost in a thread:

You know millions of illegals will skew the votes, right?

We're going to build a firewall and make Iron Realms pay for it.

[Melkor]

You know millions of illegals will skew the votes, right?



Regarding this whole issue..

Staff and players are all people. We all have the potential for great good and great dick-faceness. As a player, I try to do right in my own behavior, apologize if I fuck up, appreciate the staff when they are (frequently) awesome, shrug it off if they wrong me. I enjoy the game, so I will play. Worst case scenario, if conditions become too stifling for me, I could always take another decade-long hiatus.

Everyone should be more understanding with each other and put petty bullshit aside. The game is worth it.

[Feco]

Also this "blah" thing hurts my feelings because I like to play characters that shake things up.

Actually, it doesn't hurt my feelings, because I'm not a baby.  But, it does make me wonder what people who feel "blah" are doing different than me.

[Riev]

Also this "blah" thing hurts my feelings because I like to play characters that shake things up.

Actually, it doesn't hurt my feelings, because I'm not a baby.  But, it does make me wonder what people who feel "blah" are doing different than me.

I'm going with "having different experiences both in game, and in life, that alters their perceptions of this game they play as an avocation".

Don't feel bad that people feel this game is in a malaise. There are SUPPOSEDLY 200 unique people who play the game. People are putting expectations on a game they love, that shouldn't be there. They are of the belief that this game they have played for years will continue to have the same draw and pull as it did when they were new.

Dungeons and Dragons is interesting with new additions, classes, rulesets, dungeons, etc. Arm has (and this isn't necessarily a complaint) had none of these, instead receiving massive reductions in order to "concentrate" the world a bit more. Some people are justifiably upset that the things they believed were possible once, no longer are, or that the things they HAVE done before have been taken away without a perceived benefit to the loss.

Armageddon is the anti-game. You have to write weekly reports if you want to be noticed AT ALL. You have to engender yourself to other people as well as the overseers of the world (staff). You're limited by what you can accomplish NOT by your skillset or personal abilities, but by some arbitrary ceiling put in place for flavor. But what it offers is absolutely unmatched roleplaying standards for the MUD world, and the best-run multiplayer Perma-death game I can think of (outside of Pathfinder).

I feel where staff get disconnected, is that they BY NECESSITY have to treat the game as work, and non-Producers basically have all the power of an ant in comparison to their Overlords. The whole administrative system went from Game-based to Corporate-based where those with the most involvement and drive are forced to wait on those whose interests in making decisions has waned.

[Harmless]

Number of positive interactions with staff compared to negative ones over the 7+ years I have actively played over >40 PCs:

• Over 50 or so good replies to reports that encouraged me to at least keep going -- 5 or so amazing replies to reports which either asked me questions or gave advice and even guidelines for how to proceed or gave good answers to my questions -- vs maybe 10 or so not helpful (very short) or even discouraging replies, with only 2 or 3 replies being so negative that I wanted to just say fuck it, why do I bother? (All those supernegative replies were from a former staffyr
• At least 5 good experiences with imm animations, forced thinks/feels/flashbacks, or other imm interaction while in game -- no idea if this is a lot or a little -- sometimes for flavor, sometimes to facilitate clan activity. NO negative experiences with imm animations
• Over half a dozen accepted special app/extended app (mostly extended apps) -- just one declined Drovian app way back in the day, I now agree I was not really ready to play that role then.
• Maybe at most one rolecall application acceptances -- a handful of rejected ones, I don't care much about this really, but some players might get concerned about favoritism for rolecalls. It is not a problem for me, I enjoy elves and breeds and so on so much that I don't think I missed out
• half a dozen useful question request responses, maybe 2 or 3 snarky question request replies, nothing major there really, I chuckled, etc.
• two Rejected helper applications, dunno why staff doesn't want me nowadays, the first rejection was over some heated posts I did on the GDB within the year of my application so that is readonable.
• fair karma review replies. I didn't always get more karma on the request, but I did often enough to feel like my karma has generally been appropriate and fair for the last few years. FYI I have never gotten more than 4 karma (not gonna give the exact number) and I don't request karma review as often as is possible, I only did a request if I felt I had played enough since the last review to merit looking for signs of progress. So no complaints here
• Finally, one threat of forced storage (it was appropriate and I complied with that warning and the rest of that chara ter's life went dandy and even earned me positive account notes) and one actual forced storage (felt like staff was misunderdtanding the level of grief I was feeling over the character and looked too much into how I was emotionally handling of the IC events around that character based on analyzing my playtimes and what have you), both of whicg I learned from and haven't had any repeat incidents of that sort for 4 years now.
• maybe 4 or 5 PCs, at most, who were killed by imm spawned, imm animated NPCs, usually as a part of RPTs, sometimes as executions in the arena, and so on. I actually take this as a mark of pride, because in every instance those characters had storied lives and made impacts on dozens if not more other PCs. Staff even sent me a nice long farewell reply to a request after my first arena executed PC, congratulating me on having killed a few other PCs to end some plotlines, being involved in a criminal group, and ending it all with a bang, as well as recognition of the irony that the justification for execution was actually the one murder that assassin didn't commit. It was painful and intense initially but those thoughtful replies to my requests make a permanent difference in how I handled the loss of months of work on a PC. The staffers who sent me these thoughtful replies have all gotten staff kudos from me.

By sharing this I am illustrating how though there were negative things with staff, a lot of the negativity ended up being a useful lesson for me as a player and maybe even as a person, and that the overwhelming majority of experiences were positive.

I think burnout on player and staff sides is a huge problem here. I agree with everyone who wants more intrigue, more events, more changes, more options. (Malken) I think that staff need to think of new solutions to rulebreaking trends besides banning sprees, such as addressing the root cause of rulebreaking from a policy side rather than ramping up punishments on an already fragile playerbase, and I think the players could all use a step back and re analysis of the real issue here: we want to roleplay and to have meaningful stories told, we want a healthy community and game, and we want to matter. A lot of this can be done by us without any input from staff at all. Maybe we need more in depth discussion about the barriers to accomplishing these goals which may require bending the "discuss IC events" rule so that we can problem solve the stagnation and ennui. The vague allusions on this thread don't seem specific enough for changes to player AND staff behavior to happen.

[Malken]

Actually, it doesn't hurt my feelings, because I'm not a baby.  But, it does make me wonder what people who feel "blah" are doing different than me.

Playing For Honor.

[SuchDragonWow]

It's true.

[Jihelu]

"Another example -- I was banned from the GDB for a week after stating 'maybe we should post our opinions on the shadow board, then'. I've never posted on the Shadow Board, but was banned for alluding to possibly posting on the shadow board. After attempting to post a retort to my ban on an alternate account, both accounts were banned for a month. I was told in my ban message it was 'unwise' to post such hyperbole, especially considering I am an ex-Staff member.
"

Didn't Nergal post something saying they don't ban people for posting over there or something but they do but they don't?



The only time I've been banned from the forums was when I took part in killing random Arm thoughts because of shit posting.

I've only been force stored once for breaking the rules. I've never been threatened with storage or anything like that.

I've read staff replies from things on the spooky shadow board and some of the things on there were kinda shitty to read. I could go full on conspiracy and suggest they are edited but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and think that people are shitty sometimes.
Why can't we all just be nice to each other.