Cyberpunk & Armageddon

[Cind]

Playing an unclanned human that has nothing wrong with them (or, even worse, an unmanifested krathi that can be befriended) ranges from mildly to really painful when all I want is a slice of Zalanthan life and not the upper crust of the best cream and sugar tart ever made. That's probably the only thing I would change about this game. I could complain about elf playability, and the fact that staff told me I couldn't play one without >steal, >pick, >backstab or >sap, but I just think they didn't understand what I meant and elves should be fairly hard I think, and have at least some sense of powerlessness.

[Erythil]

If you want more people to play low class gritty characters, give low class gritty characters some things to do or accomplish that high class character's can't.  People will go where the content is.

I'd like to see a plot in the style of the Rebellion where the lower class of Allanak starts setting up insurgent cells towards some reasonably attainable goal (maybe a single tribune of the commons in the Senate?).

[Riev]

Unfortunately, Erythil, that kind of thing basically HAS to come from staff. There's no way anything like that would actually possibly happen with any amount of success without staff intervention, red herrings, and a mysterious lack of psionic interference. The rebellion was great. It succeed in part because of player ideas and intervention. However, it STILL wasn't a "Well a few players put the work in, so I GUESS the Tulukis can overthrow their magickal oppressors".

And even IF that weren't the case, the staff policy of 15 years ago is not the staff policy of today. Requirements, restrictions, staff ambition to play with the goal, and Producer sign off all are potential hazards that MOST players don't have the stamina to chase for 9 RL months just to get a minor foothold.

[BadSkeelz]

The success of such an undertaking would be entirely up to Staff, but not the undertaking itself. There's nothing stopping characters from banding together around a goal that, while known to be impossible from an OOC metagame standpoint, might appear achievable to our characters. The struggle for the goal is what would generate conflict and fun and fulfillment, not the achievement.

[Raptor_Dan]

Why, I believe at least nine impossible things before breakfast.

[Erythil]

I think a plot in that style, staff driven or otherwise, would be fun -- and since Dark Sun is the original inspiration, we should keep in mind that Dark Sun actually BEGINS with a rebellion achieving major success against a major overlord.  Sometimes it's nice to play the gritty 'good guys' instead of the jackbooted privileged enforcers.

[Akaramu]

I'd like to see a plot in the style of the Rebellion where the lower class of Allanak starts setting up insurgent cells towards some reasonably attainable goal (maybe a single tribune of the commons in the Senate?).

YES! This, please.

[wizturbo]

Personally, I'd rather not prescribe some course of action on how to give the common folks something to do.  The rebellion concept sounds okay, but it isn't sustainable.  I'd rather content be created that has long legs and permanently adds to the activities that commoners can participate in.  For example, the clay pits for Allanak for instance had great potential to do something like this, but to this day, I don't even know where the heck they are, and the skills required to work them do not appear in any of the classes I want to play...so...  No clay working for me!

Here's a somewhat controversial but interesting idea... 

What if all crafting professions could be pursued up to <advanced> by any guild, but they train very slowly?  So anyone could take up crafting pursuits without needing to invest in subguilds, whereas subguilds and/or guild merchant had starting levels begin much higher and have higher skill caps.

I know this kind of thing isn't what everyone had in mind when they said 'give commoners something to do' but honestly, being able to take up any crafting profession to a moderate level over time without having to pick that profession long in advance is a huge win for a commoner.  You never know what opportunities might arise at char gen, and being limited in what you can learn blows.

Think about if that applied to the modern work force, and how few people would actually land jobs if it were true?

[Hauwke]

I would support you on that idea if it was Jman only. Jman is perfectly acceptable for a non guild skill.

[wizturbo]

Sure.  That's probably fine too.  Staff can find the sweet spot where a crafting skill is still moderately useful, but not able to make the real good stuff better than we can.

[Miradus]

How did this turn to crafting for non-crafters?

From a balance perspective, I'm sure merchants, who give up almost everything to craft, would love to see everyone else get half of their skill level without giving up anything.

How about every elf gets steal to advanced? All stumps get Rukkian abilities default?

If we want to get rid of guilds and subguilds and let everyone pick and choose what skills they learn, I'm fine with that. Would be pretty interesting. But I don't like sneaking it through the door a piece at a time.

[bardlyone]

I'd be fine with it to apprentice in all the crafting skills. Basic stuff of all sorts could be made, but it wouldn't make crafting subs you don't need karma to get completely pointless, because they could still make some things they couldn't without them.

[Jingo]

Pondsmith goes on to quote one of Gibson's famous lines from the short story Burning Chrome: "the street finds its own uses for things." Cyberpunk isn't just about the alienation that comes with future shock, or the questions about humanity raised by cybernetic enhancement and artificial intelligence. It's also about the way powerless people find strength and solace by repurposing the future for their own ends.

Gibson wrote that the street finds its own uses for things, not "people who work for security agencies find their own uses for things."

The streets and their inhabitants are central to cyberpunk. It's the powerless who suffer most in the kind of authoritarian regimes cyberpunk fiction depicts, and games could do with getting back to the idea that the rebels, misfits, vandals, and people who can't afford a plate of spaghetti matter.

You see a bit of this in 'rinth and non-human play. But Armageddon doesn't deal well with rebels. They tend to get crushed early and hard. And to be even semi-successful, you need to find a way to co-opt in with the powers that be.

Personally, I'd like to see something of a revamp of the labyrinth. It's like when the labyrinth was first written, the writers assumed that poverty=trash/famine/hoodedcloaks. Apparantly everyone is an orphan that survived by being stabbier than the other orphans. They forgot to include the bakers, the laborers, the gardeners and community organizers  etc. that literally need to exist for the region to remain economically viable.

[Hauwke]

I wouldnt mind if every guild got knife making to jman by default. Because any fool can cut up a beastie and use one of its bones as a makeshift knife.

[Jihelu]

I wouldnt mind if every guild got knife making to jman by default. Because any fool can cut up a beastie and use one of its bones as a makeshift knife.

This applies to a lot of skills tbh

[wizturbo]

Yup.  All skills, if you ask me.

That simple change alone would allow so many characters to pursue diverse things depending on how their stories develop.  Classes should be about specialization past journeyman in my eyes.

If we're going to take magick guilds out of the game, there's no balance reasons not to let everyone train up to journeyman in just about anything.

[bardlyone]

Yup.  All skills, if you ask me.

That simple change alone would allow so many characters to pursue diverse things depending on how their stories develop.  Classes should be about specialization past journeyman in my eyes.

If we're going to take magick guilds out of the game, there's no balance reasons not to let everyone train up to journeyman in just about anything.

This.

[Jihelu]

Yup.  All skills, if you ask me.

That simple change alone would allow so many characters to pursue diverse things depending on how their stories develop.  Classes should be about specialization past journeyman in my eyes.

If we're going to take magick guilds out of the game, there's no balance reasons not to let everyone train up to journeyman in just about anything.

Only if I can call out people on twinking

[Hauwke]

Well yeah, but then you get folks who will get jman is every single skill and be a totally independant force of nature. Merchants who dont need the Byn at all. Warriors who dont need a ranger ever.

[wizturbo]

Well yeah, but then you get folks who will get jman is every single skill and be a totally independant force of nature. Merchants who dont need the Byn at all. Warriors who dont need a ranger ever.

Don't fixate on the jman part.  Maybe crafting skills are journeyman only, and other skills are apprentice only if they provide too much utility at journeyman.  The idea is that characters could grow in diverse ways.  It isn't about becoming an independent force of nature.

[Jingo]

A soft cap on all skills would be nice. But what does this have to do with the thread?

[Dar]

I'm still lost about the point of this thread to be honest.

[wizturbo]

A soft cap on all skills would be nice. But what does this have to do with the thread?

The article is partly about focusing on the 'cool losers' of the world instead of heroes.  It applies to Armageddon as well.  That lead to the discussion on what could be done to help focus on the commoners in Armageddon, and I recommended making commoners more adaptable as a means of achieving that. 

This is my logic:

When a common PC is built to be only capable of doing a narrow set of things, it forces them to towards hero building because they don't have the option to do other things.  They're forced to grow vertically within their profession.  As a character grows vertically, they become more powerful, and eventually a 'Hero' is born because they're so much stronger than the average guy at whatever it is they do.  "Cool Losers" are rarely much stronger than the average guy.  They are the average guy.  The problem is, it's hard to actually stay a 'cool loser' in Armageddon if the only activities you can pursue are the ones that you will eventually master and thus you will no longer be a 'loser' any longer.   It's hard to be considered a loser if you can kick the shit out of everyone in the Gaj, vanish from sight completely without anyone having a prayer of finding you, or are filthy rich because you can finely craft things for an enormous profit.

It's cool if people want to become 'masters' at something, they should have the potential for that, but if there were more options to spend time doing a variety of things instead of having to specialize we'd have more 'cool losers' in Armageddon in my opinion.

I hope this isn't too convoluted, but it's what I was trying to get at with my posts.

[Lutagar]

I'm kind of surprised there's not more people saying it's hard to play anything but a cool loser. Even maxed warriors still have to boot lick Templars and fear magickers. I get (and agree with) what you're trying to suggest, but right now there's a decentish counter balance in that no matter how codedly powerful you get, no matter how many meks you can tank, there's always going to be several people on grid who can and will easily shut you down if you give them enough of a reason to.

[Jihelu]

I'm kind of surprised there's not more people saying it's hard to play anything but a cool loser. Even maxed warriors still have to boot lick Templars and fear magickers. I get (and agree with) what you're trying to suggest, but right now there's a decentish counter balance in that no matter how codedly powerful you get, no matter how many meks you can tank, there's always going to be several people on grid who can and will easily shut you down if you give them enough of a reason to.

The thing is after you get this powerful you can just straight up kill them.

Though most times it is easier said then done.
Those fire mages aren't as stealthy as I want them to be...