Archery/Crossbow/Sling

[Miradus]

Are there any coded differences in the skills? Such as crossbow being more suitable for lower agility individuals?

And do all of them ultimately get the ability to make their own ammo?

[Shoka Windrunner]

I thought...I read that the crafting skills for crossbow and slings wasn't in yet?  But that might be old.  Dunno.  Wish I could help.

[Jihelu]

You can craft ammo for all of the weapons easily...if you're a merchant or ranger. Other than that I don't know if other classes get it.

As for what is good for what...
I just suggest trying them all out. Crossbows need some love.

[Riev]

Its going to turn into one big Find Out IC (tm).

I do, however, hope that Crossbows get some love in the form of in-room shots getting some extra damage dice. If you're a fucking surgeon with a crossbow, it should be able to pierce armor, and a neck shot at close range shouldn't be something to scoff at.

[Jihelu]

Its going to turn into one big Find Out IC (tm).

I do, however, hope that Crossbows get some love in the form of in-room shots getting some extra damage dice. If you're a fucking surgeon with a crossbow, it should be able to pierce armor, and a neck shot at close range shouldn't be something to scoff at.

Perhaps the little archery buff it has (Well, crossbow now...hopefully, I hope the code isn't so janked that it boosts your bow skill when it's a crossbow) somewhat shows that with how you'll land neck shots more.
Probably.

The archery buff on crossbows exists right? I could have sworn I read about it sometime ago.

[Riev]

I mentioned it in a thread a while ago, and a staffer mentioned something about it being changed... but to what, I don't know.


I just wish my character's 2 years of crossbow training meant something, now that he has decent archery and shit crossbow use. ALL MY PLANS (none of them)

[Miradus]

It's something you'd tactile know from picking one up and trying it, but that isn't going to come across in the game. That's why I'm asking on the forum.

[Riev]

It's something you'd tactile know from picking one up and trying it, but that isn't going to come across in the game. That's why I'm asking on the forum.

Well, one question asked specifically about branched skills, and the other is asking whether "codedly, is one better for agility?". Its more than likely going to be a find out IC thing, is all. It very well may be that high agility people do well with a bow, and you need a significant bit more strength to load a good crossbow.

[Molten Heart]

.

[Miradus]

Historically slings took some agility to use but ammo is cheap.
Crossbows took less skill to learn how to use effectively (less agility) and could punch through heavy armor, but were slow to bring to bear and had less range.
Bows were a hunter's weapon, quick to use, resilient, and longer range.

Telling me to find out IC is a terrible answer. That means buy one of each and test them out for months over dozens of shots at the same type creature with characters of varying agility.

Finding out IC is MORE gamebreaking than just putting the info into a helpfile, which if you grew up in a world where bows, crossbows, and slings were utilized you'd probably know.

[Riev]

Boy do I agree, but that's how its always been. You want to find out how much a skill is governed by stats? Find out IC. You want to find out if a Bow is good at close range? Find out IC.

It sucks, but that's how it usually goes. Hopefully some staff chime in otherwise, but you're asking players for mechanics advice.

[Miradus]

Fine. Not frustrated with you, Riev, just the general attitude which doesn't make sense.

It's a new change. New skills broken out to be more realistic. I just assume the helpfile hasn't caught up yet with the change and wanted to know how the skills are going to work.

[Riev]

Admittedly I was a little perturbed myself when they got broken out, and my character (who had been practicing with a crossbow the whole time) suddenly doesn't have it on his list. My interpretation of the helpfile is apparently incorrect.

[Jihelu]

Admittedly I was a little perturbed myself when they got broken out, and my character (who had been practicing with a crossbow the whole time) suddenly doesn't have it on his list. My interpretation of the helpfile is apparently incorrect.

Has asking staff to replace archery with crossbow use not worked?

[Riev]

Admittedly I was a little perturbed myself when they got broken out, and my character (who had been practicing with a crossbow the whole time) suddenly doesn't have it on his list. My interpretation of the helpfile is apparently incorrect.

Has asking staff to replace archery with crossbow use not worked?

I was told that I will eventually get crossbow use, so my assumption is that I have to wait, and just train it up then.

Its fine to wait, but the helpfile seemed to indicate that when I got archery, I would get crossbow use "as well".

[Inks]

Crossbows have a higher chance to hit, Jave coded it in a while back to represent their ease of use.

(Essentially crossbows give +archery but have much slower firerate)

[nessalin]

Crossbows have a higher chance to hit, Jave coded it in a while back to represent their ease of use.

(Essentially crossbows give +archery but have much slower firerate)

No, Jave did not.

[hopeandsorrow]

Crossbows have a higher chance to hit, Jave coded it in a while back to represent their ease of use.

(Essentially crossbows give +archery but have much slower firerate)

No, Jave did not.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,31255.msg915231.html#msg915231




Did this change get reverted? Not actually happen? Or did some one else do the coding work?

[Jihelu]

So do crossbows do shit or naw because if naw I'm crying.

[nessalin]

Crossbows have a higher chance to hit, Jave coded it in a while back to represent their ease of use.

(Essentially crossbows give +archery but have much slower firerate)

No, Jave did not.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,31255.msg915231.html#msg915231




Did this change get reverted? Not actually happen? Or did some one else do the coding work?

That's not code, that's how the items were built.  Which means it's a one-off for each item in the game, and legacy items weren't updated.  Admittedly it's a fine point of distinction, but Jave did not code anything.


There's also nothing in there about rate of fire, which is handled purely by code.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Agree with Riev on the armor penetration. Historically speaking I think the ability to punch through platemail was one of the main reasons to use Crossbows. That and they were easier to use both in terms of aiming and amount of body strength required to draw. So troops needed far less practice to "git gud."

Googling around, I see references to crossbows out-ranging longbows as well (though the annecdotal shots are from the 1980s, so technology could be a factor there):

The furthest distance shot with any bow is 2,047 yards (1,871.84m) . This was shot by the late Harry Drake in 1988 using a crossbow. The furthest with a hand-held — and pulled — bow is 1,336 yds 1' 3" (1,222.01m) , shot by Don Brown with an unlimited conventional Flight bow in 1987.

I'd totally be willing to forgo that for game balance and give longbows the superior range.

My favorite, and ultimately most frustrating, game to play is "if I were to code it." I would do it like this:

Longbow
+ Better Range (for high str bows at least)
+ Fast Reloads
+ Lighter
+ Cheaper
- Harder to Use
- Strength is a factor, especially for stronger/longer range bows

Crossbow
+ Armor Penetration and/or superior damage
+ Ease of Use (higher start, accuracy buffs?)
+ No strength dependency
- Very slow reloads
- Heavier
- A great deal more expensive (Lets be real - this is one of the most complex machines in Zalanthas.)

[Shoka Windrunner]

Agree with Riev on the armor penetration. Historically speaking I think the ability to punch through platemail was one of the main reasons to use Crossbows. That and they were easier to use both in terms of aiming and amount of body strength required to draw. So troops needed far less practice to "git gud."

Googling around, I see references to crossbows out-ranging longbows as well (though the annecdotal shots are from the 1980s, so technology could be a factor there):

The furthest distance shot with any bow is 2,047 yards (1,871.84m) . This was shot by the late Harry Drake in 1988 using a crossbow. The furthest with a hand-held — and pulled — bow is 1,336 yds 1' 3" (1,222.01m) , shot by Don Brown with an unlimited conventional Flight bow in 1987.

I'd totally be willing to forgo that for game balance and give longbows the superior range.

My favorite, and ultimately most frustrating, game to play is "if I were to code it." I would do it like this:

Longbow
+ Better Range (for high str bows at least)
+ Fast Reloads
+ Lighter
+ Cheaper
- Harder to Use
- Strength is a factor, especially for stronger/longer range bows

Crossbow
+ Armor Penetration and/or superior damage
+ Ease of Use (higher start, accuracy buffs?)
+ No strength dependency
- Very slow reloads
- Heavier
- A great deal more expensive (Lets be real - this is one of the most complex machines in Zalanthas.)

Yeah there is a reason the church tried to ban crossbows but failed.  Anyone could gather up a bunch of farmers, train them for a couple days on crossbows and have a devastating support force. 

Kinda shifted the balance of power.

And yeah, armor piercing, cause bolts CAN be heavier than arrows, thus velocity x mass = force and all that.

Armor piercing should probably be based on the arrow/bolt.


Just to put it in there, slings have the shorter range, but do blunt damage instead of piercing.

[Jihelu]

If I recall crossbows were outlawed in warfare, except against muslims.

I think this was during the crusades, however.
Or Europe just really hated them.
Either or.


Crossbows are cool. If they had a chance or just straight up ignored certain 'tiers' of armor I'd be fine with that. Maybe even break it.

[Miradus]

The usage of the crossbow pre-dates the "church" by at least 400 years.

I would like to see a source for your "church banned the crossbow" statement or any claims that it was outlawed. Throughout the 1,000 years of European crossbow history there have been numerous popes, anti-popes, and splinter groups. Could one of them have said "commoners can't use crossbows?" Undoubtedly. I GUARANTEE you that secular authority would have banned the crossbow wherever they could.

But there isn't likely to have been a total ban since there wasn't a total church authority who could do so. The crossbow would have been used by any group who wanted to arm some cheap ranged units swiftly in any manner they found feasible. If you have decided to break away from the king and set up your own king and your own pope, then to nuts with the king's "ban" on crossbows.

[Jihelu]

Googling it only revealed a small sentence on "Can. 29 of the Second Lateran Council under Pope Innocent II in 1139 banned the use of crossbows, as well as slings and bows, against Christians"
And thats about as far as my will to google things goes.