Let's talk BONDAGE!

[Fathi]

Now that I've got your attention.

This is something that's been brought up a few times in the various plot/conflict threads, often championed by myself: kidnapping people in Armageddon is difficult. More difficult than it probably should be. This is NOT the thread to post "but it's technically possible!" because yes, I'm aware of that. One of my PCs was even successfully kidnapped before! This IS the thread to discuss how we might make kidnapping/restraining/otherwise nonlethally subduing people a more enjoyable and realistic experience for all involved.

Here are some ideas I have:

- Expand 'subdue' so that you can use coded rope objects to bind a subdued person.
This is pretty straightforward. It would require more than one person to be in on the kidnap job, which seems realistic to me. Codedly, the subdue mechanic is already there. Here is how I envision it working: if a character is successfully subdued by Character A, Character B can then use rope to tie the victim up. This would incur a time delay, during which the subdued individual can attempt to escape using the same 'flee' mechanic we already use to break a subdue. The victim might possibly have a bonus to flee here, given their captors will be moving all about trying to secure them.

- Expand 'flee' so that you can attempt to wriggle free of being tied up.
Just what it says on the tin. You can attempt to break loose. It'll cost stamina points and echo to the room, though, so if your captors tell you not to move, you might be better served sitting still.

- Expand 'sleight of hand' so that people can attempt to break their bonds unseen.
If you have the relevant skill, your flee attempt will either hemote or not echo at all. We could also tie this into flee skill.

- Add new 'bound' state for characters that functions more or less identically to 'subdued.'
People will still be able to emote etc. but won't be able to move. They'll incur pretty severe penalties to being attacked, which makes sense as they are immobilised.

- Create a new command such as bind/unbind to tie someone up or untie them.
Pretty self-explanatory. Also, I'd imagine certain actions taken against a bound person might have a chance of freeing them, such as dragging them around or attacking them. We're not talking steel chains here.

Given we now have quality of tools/objects, we could work the quality of one's rope into the probability of one's victim being able to break loose.

Why is this necessary?
It's not, really. It'd be nice to have, though. Kidnapping people currently involves a lot of keeping them unconscious or locking them in places. Both of those situations are not ideal. I had a character kidnapped from Allanak and dragged down to Red Storm once upon a time, and while it was an awesome plot, the mechanics were somewhat cumbersome. I've also had a character held hostage for an extended interval of time, and my PC's captors kept her unconscious for quite a while and then used a magickal mechanic that left me unable to emote. In a lot of ways, that sucked. I was totally willing to play along, but I can't blame them for being overcautious. They were just doing the best they could with the tools they had and it was still great RP, but man it was frustrating having to be either incapacitated beyond emoting or totally KOed. A coded middle ground would be nice.

There already is a middle ground, you dork. It's called 'subdue man.'
I have some issues with the way the subdue skill currently works. It's not an ideal solution. For starters, it's pretty easy to escape unless one of the parties in question is significantly bigger/stronger than the other. And escaping doesn't penalise the escapee at all. Also, the subduer not being able to wield even a single weapon can be pretty frustrating. Want to hold a knife to someone's neck so they don't just >flee flee flee? You just have to emote it and hope they play along. Most people do, but it'd be nice to not have to trust 'most people.'

---

This isn't a perfect idea, and it's probably not 100% necessary, but given all the recent discussions we've been having on the boards about nonlethal conflicts and now Cayuga's post about plotting, it's something that's churning in my head. I've had three characters involved in kidnap plots, twice as a victim and once as a perpetrator, and it's always been memorable, if something of a clusterfuck. With a couple little code tweaks, I think we could make it much easier, and a lot of the code is already in place.

I'm sure there are drawbacks I haven't thought of yet, such as whether we'd need special code to feed/water tied up people like they're houseplants or whatever, but I'm sure people who are better critical thinkers than I will bring those up.

[BadSkeelz]

I'd love to be able to bind people without having to have them subdued by another PC constantly. I'd also like to be able to blind someone by putting a sack over their head. As it is I'm not sure there's even a poison we could use to achieve that effect... though continually dousing someone with skellebaine might be an amusing alternative.

The big hurdle I see to coded Bondage has to be getting the code for it. I can't think of anything that looks like it could be "easily" or "readily" converted. Unless you make like, a rope Object that is actually an NPC that has the subdue skill? But then you wouldn't be able to move it around without subduing the actual rope?

[bardlyone]

I'd love to be able to bind people without having to have them subdued by another PC constantly. I'd also like to be able to blind someone by putting a sack over their head. As it is I'm not sure there's even a poison we could use to achieve that effect... though continually dousing someone with skellebaine might be an amusing alternative.

The big hurdle I see to coded Bondage has to be getting the code for it. I can't think of anything that looks like it could be "easily" or "readily" converted. Unless you make like, a rope Object that is actually an NPC that has the subdue skill? But then you wouldn't be able to move it around without subduing the actual rope?

Maybe an item that when it's used on you sets your stamina to 0 (which will help with the penalizing a lot of stuff part), and makes your encumberance 'unbelievably heavy' (only when you're subdued by it?) so that with no stamina and the weight, you simply codedly cannot leave the room.

I love the skellebain idea.

As to the eating idea, maybe just 'feed' and 'water' commands, like 'feed captive melon' 'water captive waterpack', with a nosave flag so you can struggle to avoid it (ie if you think it might be poisoned) and there be a chance for the item to be ruined/water to be poured out. Bonus points if you can just use these in general and it starts with pcs defaulted to resisting it, so you can use it to feed your mount, or child npcs, whatever weird romantic dinner rp with a mate, force feed a cure to an incapacitated pc, etc etc etc.

[BadSkeelz]

Maybe an item that when it's used on you sets your stamina to 0 (which will help with the penalizing a lot of stuff part), and makes your encumberance 'unbelievably heavy' (only when you're subdued by it?) so that with no stamina and the weight, you simply codedly cannot leave the room.

We couuuuld achieve a similar effect in game by giving people large bags of rocks and threatening with death if they drop it. Of course, the ">give unbelievably.heavy.bag, threaten or actually engage in combat" trick is one rightly looked down upon by staff. And ridiculous when you imagine the the scene actually playing out. There's also the problem of bringing the bags/superheavyrope/whatever to the potential kidnapped. On the "positive" side, as I understand subdue to work such an encumbered person would still be draggable with minimal endurance loss.

I can't remember if you can mount up while subduing a person. Would be nice if we could, or if there was some mechanism for packing a (living) body on to a mount.

I forget if you can eat and drink from your inventory while subdued. If so, then a solution to the feed/drink delimma is potentially as simple as recreating the subdue state as closely as possible with an item. I envision this as something we can ">release captive" to after subduing them ourselves.

>subdue amos
>release Amos rope
Amos is now subdued ('bound') by the rope. The rope's Subdue skill can be scaled with its material and craftsmanship.

We have objects that can confine a person but there are some drawbacks to them (namely size, maneuverability, and inability to break out of).

Last edit: Hey didn't they add the ability to force-administer food and cures to PCs a little while ago?

[nauta]

I'd love to be able to bind people without having to have them subdued by another PC constantly. I'd also like to be able to blind someone by putting a sack over their head. As it is I'm not sure there's even a poison we could use to achieve that effect... though continually dousing someone with skellebaine might be an amusing alternative.

The big hurdle I see to coded Bondage has to be getting the code for it. I can't think of anything that looks like it could be "easily" or "readily" converted. Unless you make like, a rope Object that is actually an NPC that has the subdue skill? But then you wouldn't be able to move it around without subduing the actual rope?

Maybe an item that when it's used on you sets your stamina to 0 (which will help with the penalizing a lot of stuff part), and makes your encumberance 'unbelievably heavy' (only when you're subdued by it?) so that with no stamina and the weight, you simply codedly cannot leave the room.

I love the skellebain idea.

As to the eating idea, maybe just 'feed' and 'water' commands, like 'feed captive melon' 'water captive waterpack', with a nosave flag so you can struggle to avoid it (ie if you think it might be poisoned) and there be a chance for the item to be ruined/water to be poured out. Bonus points if you can just use these in general and it starts with pcs defaulted to resisting it, so you can use it to feed your mount, or child npcs, whatever weird romantic dinner rp with a mate, force feed a cure to an incapacitated pc, etc etc etc.

Very interesting.  And interesting follow-ups.

1. Reduction to stamina 0.  Great idea!  This would solve the flee and run cases.  But it wouldn't allow you to move the victim around.  Perhaps subdue if you wish to move them.  Or.

2. Put them in the rope (stamina 0) and make them mount a mount that you have the reins to.

3. There is blindness code in the game.

4. Eating.  Stamina 0 you can still give them food.

5. You'd probably want to disallow es and ep while tied up too.  Perhaps a ready/stow check could break this.

[bardlyone]

1. Reduction to stamina 0.  Great idea!  This would solve the flee and run cases.  But it wouldn't allow you to move the victim around.  Perhaps subdue if you wish to move them.  Or.

I was thinking if they were bound enough not to be able to run (instead of just to not be able to wield/hold weapons) it would probably include feet, and thus require subduing/dragging them, which is probably a good thing so you can't have someone tied up and order them to walk through a public place with a chance that pcs there wouldn't notice they were tied up simply due to not 'look'ing at them.

[Seeker]

We might be able to play some games with items and code.


Leg Shackles:  Wear items (ankles or feet) that weight 600 stones.  You can codedly them put them on (or someone else can codedly put them on a subdued PC).  They take two minutes real time to take off and you need both hands empty to do it.

Wrist Shackles: Items that you can etwo but that you cannot drop.  You can codedly pick them up, but only someone else can take them off the wearer with a moderate delay.

Bag over the Head:  Blindness code.  Could probably use the same freaky wear location that some rare (*redacted*) use.  Pull it on and off someone to activate the code.

Maybe not impossible.

[Synthesis]

The idea of you being able to put someone in restraints who is actively resisting without a) having another PC to help or b) having an enormous size and strength advantage is silly.

It is almost impossible to get someone into handcuffs by yourself if they don't want them on, without utilizing strikes (kill), chokes (kill) or some sort of pain compliance (for which no code presently exists...and I have difficulty imagining how pain compliance could even be coded).  Much less tying someone up, even if you had the knots pre-tied.

If you have someone subdued and have a buddy there, and they start trying to flee, just start bludgeoning or unarmed pounding them?  If they die...OH WELL.

Also, I feel like "being kidnapped," which is essentially the RP that this code would promote, is something that would require some sort of OOC consent by the player of the PC being kidnapped, since "being kidnapped," from a gameplay perspective, could be exceedingly boring (cf. slave roles).  If that case holds, then the rope code isn't necessary at all--if the player consents to his PC being kidnapped, they -probably- will roleplay appropriately.  If the player doesn't consent, then they don't want to be arsed to sit around unable to move for RL days or weeks, and you should respect that and play around it.

[Akaramu]

Hell yeah to all of this. I'm still planning to play that yandere character sometime. Come to me, darling, we'll be together forever

Maybe we need better methods of blocking way conversations in illuminated rooms that aren't special rooms, too? Or those methods already exist and I'm just being a nub.

[azuriolinist]

Maybe we need better methods of blocking way conversations in illuminated rooms that aren't special rooms, too? Or those methods already exist and I'm just being a nub.

Force a keg of spirits down someone's throat?

Yeah, I've got nothing, either.

[bardlyone]

booze and/or skellebain, I think, would be good in that instance.

[Akaramu]

booze and/or skellebain, I think, would be good in that instance.

What if you want to keep them for a while? That stuff eventually wears off.

[nauta]

Also, I feel like "being kidnapped," which is essentially the RP that this code would promote, is something that would require some sort of OOC consent by the player of the PC being kidnapped, since "being kidnapped," from a gameplay perspective, could be exceedingly boring (cf. slave roles).  If that case holds, then the rope code isn't necessary at all--if the player consents to his PC being kidnapped, they -probably- will roleplay appropriately.  If the player doesn't consent, then they don't want to be arsed to sit around unable to move for RL days or weeks, and you should respect that and play around it.

I have to agree here.  It'd be nice to kidnap someone and have the coded means to do so, but ultimately if there's expectation for being bound up past the scene, I'm not sure what we'd do.  What if they have to logout?

That said, a rope object (0 stamina, flee check or another PC to escape) would be neat also so you could bonk them on the head, tie them up, and leave them in the desert somewhere.  They'd have to either escape with a successful flee check (or sleight of hand check) or way a friend to come get them before they die of thirst.

As to preventing them from waying, just keep hitting them on the head to keep their stun low. :-)

[bardlyone]

booze and/or skellebain, I think, would be good in that instance.

What if you want to keep them for a while? That stuff eventually wears off.

Dose them with more at threat of death, every X IC hours. Yes it wears off, but much like food or water, if you want to stay continually in a state (not hungry, not thirsty, tripping balls), you need to have some amount of a stock of it to maintain that state. Which seems fine and in keeping with the game world to me. Ultimately, if you're as vulnerable wile bound as you are while sleeping, then they ought to know they can kill you before any dogooder you might way can seriously hurt them by busting in. And if busting them is worth dying over... well, that's a risk they have to know they're taking in kidnapping you. Just my opinion there, of course.

[Feco]

+1

[Synthesis]

I'd like to reiterate that if you think that being kidnapped would be fun, by all means, let yourself be kidnapped.

There are two bits of evidence I'll use to support my idea that the Staff generally aren't fond of people being forced to roleplay captivity:

1.  Jail sentences are ridiculously short.
2.  Slave roles are no longer allowed.

If someone kidnapped my PC and left me in a room where I was unable to escape, I'd maybe give it a couple of days to see where it was going, then just store the PC and roll another one up.  If I wanted to sit around and do solo RP while being able to unable to do anything useful, I'd join the Byn.

[Feco]

Being kidnapped and locked in a room forever is no fun, and should result in storage or death.

Being captured and tied up, then strapped to a beetle to get turned over for a bounty/glory/to be fed to an anakore, could be fun.

[Miradus]

I don't mind the being tied up, etc. but I would have concerns about what comes next. I don't want to be tortured, maimed, raped, etc. unless it fits into MY plans for the character. And I certainly don't want someone coming back to their apartment once a day to ooc consent me to see if I'm bored enough for their perversion yet.

[BadSkeelz]

If you've managed to let yourself get subdued you're kiiiiind of at the mercy of the other player-characters involved (Except when it comes to rape, which is just not allowed anymore [sorta]). When I maim PCs I always ask OOC Consent not just for detail, but for extent of the damage they're willing to play with. Can and have haggled down from eyes to hands to fingers to 'systemic asswhupping.'

That said, if someone just flat out refuses to participate I would probably just PK them.

[Feco]

Rape isn't allowed in the game.

Torture and maiming roleplay requires consent.

It's also already possible to imprison someone long term.  Throw them in a room and lock the door. I imagine being tied up in a room be treated the same way it would be now.

These changes wouldn't change any of that.

The only thing I would add to this suggestion is the following:  Stamina should slowly regain while tied up.  This means that if you do get put somewhere temporarily, you can't run out of stamina from typing 'flee' and never escape.

[Miradus]

If you've managed to let yourself get subdued you're kiiiiind of at the mercy of the other player-characters involved (Except when it comes to rape, which is just not allowed anymore [sorta]). When I maim PCs I always ask OOC Consent not just for detail, but for extent of the damage they're willing to play with. Can and have haggled down from eyes to hands to fingers to 'systemic asswhupping.'

That said, if someone just flat out refuses to participate I would probably just PK them.

In reality, yes. But not in the game. You're not so much at the mercy of the other player, but at the mercy of the code.

I think a brief ooc conversation as to what you'll allow to happen, or what you'll allow to happen in "fade" is fine.

OOC: I'm going to torture you for hours and you'll come out of it with whatever longterm injuries you decide, but we'll just say it happened and not roleplay it, okay?

OOC: You bet, see you around.

But I really don't want to roleplay out some long torture scene. Just like BardlyOne has her issues, I've got mine. As far as I know, I'm the only one on this forum who has been water boarded in real life. Some things I just don't want in my character's storyline.

So, yeah, that's what I would want from another player. The understanding that we're crafting a story together and some players may be comfortable with this or that in their character's backstory, they may not be comfortable with actually roleplaying it out blow by blow.

[Feco]

That's already in the rules, and I think most players are reasonable about this sort of thing.

If you're uncomfortable, OOC to stop, and consider using the player complaint request.

[Synthesis]

Torture and rape have their own rules, and are irrelevant to the discussion, except that they establish the precedent that certain things may be prohibited or highly restricted for purely OOC reasons.

Let's not turn this into a derail that gets the thread locked (even though I think the getting-tied-up idea is a bad one).

Personally, I compare this to the widely-lampooned necksnap idea.  Would it be realistic to be able to snap someone's neck while they're subdued? Probably.  Is necksnap ever going to be implemented?  Probably not.

[Riev]

It reminds me of the "blindfold" code, referencing that we still can't wrap cloth around our eyes so we can't codedly see.

I would LOVE an actual ability to have someone tied up, without relying on having a half-giant around, because even a tall human with master subdue can't reliably subdue a newbie. If you're working with a partner, it'd be nice to be able to subdue, tie up, and then like people have said, use flee still to try and escape.

But then its ACTUALLY dangerous. If one person has you subdued, they have no weapons, you can break the subdue relatively easily, and when you do you already have flee self queued up and can just spam run away. Unlikely they'll succeed it twice in a row. But with a rope, they see you squirming, and they CAN attack you. The rope just kind of signifies that you're interested in the RP.



HOWEVER, I agree with Synth, that unless its a staff-run character, kidnapping would be the fucking worst. I would never want to kidnap another PC, nor would I ever want to be in that situation. I might go along with it, but the coordination and my inability to play would be simply awful. Kidnap plots would have to be closely monitored by staff and have near-immediate resolutions. While I wish subdue was FUCKING. USEFUL. FOR. ANYONE. I can't really imagine how it'd be utilized without either subdue;kill or kidnap plots that are still victim-favored for playability.

[nauta]

I haven't thought this through, but what about: bash?  If there's a delay after 'stand' before they can type 'run; e' (if not, maybe there should be), you could just keep bashing them once they stand up to keep them seated at least.  Maybe holding rope in the basher's hands would increase the bash by x%.

You might want to change the echos a bit so it feels more realistic.

[Riev]

There is not, if you can stand, you can flee. And bash doesn't always knock down for a consistent amount of time, so you'd have to have some sort of combat trigger. And like subdue, even if this skill was at master, unless you're a half-giant you're not even remotely assured of any sort of success.

What if a successful bash initiated 'reel' code, where <x> seconds after a bash, if the attacker disengages, it breaks combat fully? So you can bash them, change their position, and subdue them on the ground, or emote holding a sword to their throat.

[Riev]

But guise...

WHAT IF

[Shoka Windrunner]

Isn't there a poison that takes care of them fleeing?  Maybe a couple?

[Jihelu]

Should you have to resort to poison that has to be reapplied as opposed to being able to tie someone to a bed?

[Shoka Windrunner]

Should you have to resort to poison that has to be reapplied as opposed to being able to tie someone to a bed?

That's a good point.  I think, from game balance vs reality, it's pretty easy in RL to tie someone up, but game balance-wise it needs to be -somewhat- difficult.  Otherwise it's game breaking.  I suppose a Bondage skill might be appropriate.   

Along with code to struggle hard, or struggle softly, like trying to carefully untie or cut the ropes as is shown in most movies and shows.  Chance of noticing based off sneak skill dunno.  Hmm.

So, my thoughts I guess, similar to Bandage, must be holding a rope, length of twine, leather cord etc.  So 'bondage amos'.  'You start to hog-tie Amos.'  Or, 'You don't seem to have anything to hog-tie him/her.'

Cannot be in combat.  Must be subdued, or unconcious.  Either we hold you down and hog-tie ya, or your lights are out and hog-tie ya.  Requires one person to subdue another to bondage if using subdue.  Can bondage solo if target is unconcious.  If asleep, maybe chance of awakening target (if capable of becoming awake) which would be considered a hostile action, starting combat with a delay for the bondage user for game balance and chance to flee?  Maybe have to hold rope with both hands, or have one hand empty and rope in the other?  Be hard to tie someone up with a single hand actually.

Bondage skill + item bonus (if any) = hog-tie value (hog-tie value maybe adjusted by item bonus instead of skill, this makes a bit more sense, good braided leather is probably harder to escape than thick hemp rope due to tightness possible with the two different 'ropes' for a random unthought out example)  Stuck in sitting/resting as only two options for 'stance' probably resting.  Resting means there are already limits to what you can or cannot pick up (you can't reach the chest with escape tools from here message), so would keep from rummaging through that chest to find a pocket knife, but bottle on the floor could be grabbed and broken?  I guess I don't think you can do that without holding it...I don't know, that all could come later...

Struggle command lets you attempt to loosen or remove bonds.  Decreasing or 'damaging' hog-tie value.  Hog-tie value 0 or less and you are freed.

Struggle based on skill or strength + agility stat?  Probably just stats to keep it simpler.  Possible bonus for knife in inventory or hand, though not likely in hand.  Can maybe retrieve knife from a container worn on body but large delay to accomplish and echo to room showing you are contorting yourself to do so?

Can 'struggle hard' to subtract from hog-tie value in larger amounts, but this is completely visible.  Can 'struggle hidden' to attempt to slip the ropes/break the ropes without being noticed.  Bonus to not being noticed based on sneak or hide (hide seems more apt in my mind) skill if any, agility otherwise, damage to hog-tie value decrease is small, but less likely to result in a punch or clubbing to the face as may go unnoticed.  Bonus to detect if watching checked against scan skill vs hide/agility.  Otherwise what...wisdom vs hide/agility?  So still dangerous to try if you aren't good at being a hider.

Something like that maybe.  I don't know the state of the code so no guesses as to how hard to add all this, of course a 'struggle' and 'bondage' skill would need to be created, tested, and then added to guilds or all characters.  At least 'struggle' should be on everyone's list, unless it is just based on stats, then it's just a command similar to mount.   Attempts to do something like 'east' would echo to the 'bondaged' character, 'You can't do that as you are tied up!  Try to 'struggle' to free yourself!'  Maybe just using 'struggle' defaults to 'struggle hard.'

That seem balanced and make sense?  Did I miss something obvious?

[Jihelu]

I'd much rather just see it use the flee skill.

Anyone can flee.
People with the skill flee a lot better.
Etc.


That way some people can be better than others but you still have a chance of doing it either way.

[Shoka Windrunner]

I'd much rather just see it use the flee skill.

Anyone can flee.
People with the skill flee a lot better.
Etc.


That way some people can be better than others but you still have a chance of doing it either way.

Simpler.  Easier.  I'm sure the coders would like simpler easier. 

Well probably easier to add to an existing skill than to create another from scratch and distribute it.

I'm not entirely sure, but I got to thinking after posting and I might be thinking of a different game, but isn't there something like this in the game already?  An item or something someone can be released into that is hard to escape?  Stocks or an iron maiden or something?  I may be completely remembering wrong though.

(no probably not an 'iron' maiden but ya know...I don't know what to call it in Z)

[650Booger]

if you get put in captivity for more than a RL day, there should be some OOC communication about arranging meeting times for continued roleplay, so at least the captive doesnt have to just log in and sit around waiting for somebody to show up.

[The Warshaper]

Rope bonds - Agility check to wriggle free.
Mechanical bonds - Pick Lock to disable them and get free.
Sleight of hand to make attempts unseen.
Break free - Strength check to attempt to use sheer power to break bonds. Cannot be hidden.

Seems like a fun/silly time to be had by all.