Release Note discussion!

[Void]

i like the change. Celves can now outrun your round-ear assed guards easilly.

I've seen a LOT of cool celf changes in the last few years, and they actually look fun now. I might Roll A Rinthi Elf one day now.

The problem here is it isn't PC guards that typically handle criminals. You're dealing with a city of guards who will insta-gank you. There probably won't actually be any chases like you just said as it is far more economic now to sneak/hide/climb away. Gone are the days Templars would chase Gizhat around Nak. lol

[Yelinak]

I don't get it. Running in the city always cost stamina on my city elves. What am I missing?

And if it costs 1 stamina per room, you can run the entire way across Allanak and back again in one go.

[Lotion]

Previously there were a lot of rooms where celves could run with no stamina loss and nobody could keep up. Now they will have less stamina loss and higher base stamina so nobody can keep up, but a group could now more easily tire a single elf and potentially corner.

[Suhuy]

For the last umpteen years elves in Luir's Outpost haven't gotten free movement.

Not true. Half of Luir's had zero stamina drain for c-elves when running. For the other half, I would just walk it or suffer the stamina loss.

Time will tell if the update on Sunday, combined with the small boost c-elves just got, changes the overall culture of how (and even if!) c-elves are played. Until then we can only speculate. But if the change is significant, I don't see that as a plus for the game.

People have been saying this game is in decline since the 1990s. But it hasn't been in serious decline like it is now. These days, the game is clearly hemorrhaging, bad! And I think we should all be extraordinarily cautious about removing one of the mainstays of the MUD. Is it realistic to run endlessly without ever tiring? No, but playability must always trump realism. Making spice age may be realistic, but it certainly does not encourage spice consumption/RP. And tireless running in the city was just one of those things that everyone accepted as a sort of trade off for a super, super weak race that often times can't even etwo a shortsword (speaking of things unrealistic).

What I'd like to see is c-elves running as a general rule, regardless of what city they are in. It's what they do, it's what separates them from other races, it's what's stressed time and time again in the documentation. Elves run. That's their thing. Maybe you should set NPC c-elves to run even, any time they randomly move in some direction, to better get the point across that elves are runners. If c-elves can do this fairly reliably and regularly, then the change is no big deal. If c-elves just walk everywhere from now on, this change is without a doubt a bad one.

Just my two cents. Disagree and discombobulate at your leisure.

[Armaddict]

Just my two cents. Disagree and discombobulate at your leisure.

I don't disagree that it may have an impact.  I do disagree that it will be a monstrous impact.  And I do disagree that this is a definitive part of why people would leave.  It was a neat feature, and something cool to talk about with people if they were asking 'why play an elf' (City run is one of those hidden gems of a boon), but they maintain the big part of it, which is the sprint speed, and they have more endurance.  Just not the cool factor of being able to always-run around the city without end.

There were always a few rooms that cost stamina, but the alleys in particular, it was noticeable that was where elves shined.  I like the +30 stamina.  I'm not certain it will allow elves to take larger part in Byn operations without being a huge liability, which is kind of what I was hoping we could get around to while we were on the topic.

Just keep in mind...this was not an elf-centric thing, this was a room-coding thing.  There were other issues that caused this, not a direct thing to elves.  This wasn't a 'fix this, elves shouldn't do this', it was a myriad of other behaviors in rooms that weren't working correctly.  This is a side effect.  I'd like to see some ideas that are not too code-heavy to move elven culture into a more present part of the game (i.e. Most people will be around it more often), if the +30 stamina just isn't doing it for you.

I know I'm not super active in the game, but the draw of elves for me was never the running.  It was the psychology and social role, at least when it was played close to the way I envisioned it.  I don't think this should be taken as removal of a super big part of elven culture, or as a serious drawback.  Just as an opportunity to examine the way the new things work, and how we can work with it.

[Fredd]

For the last umpteen years elves in Luir's Outpost haven't gotten free movement.

Not true. Half of Luir's had zero stamina drain for c-elves when running. For the other half, I would just walk it or suffer the stamina loss.

Time will tell if the update on Sunday, combined with the small boost c-elves just got, changes the overall culture of how (and even if!) c-elves are played. Until then we can only speculate. But if the change is significant, I don't see that as a plus for the game.

People have been saying this game is in decline since the 1990s. But it hasn't been in serious decline like it is now. These days, the game is clearly hemorrhaging, bad! And I think we should all be extraordinarily cautious about removing one of the mainstays of the MUD. Is it realistic to run endlessly without ever tiring? No, but playability must always trump realism. Making spice age may be realistic, but it certainly does not encourage spice consumption/RP. And tireless running in the city was just one of those things that everyone accepted as a sort of trade off for a super, super weak race that often times can't even etwo a shortsword (speaking of things unrealistic).

What I'd like to see is c-elves running as a general rule, regardless of what city they are in. It's what they do, it's what separates them from other races, it's what's stressed time and time again in the documentation. Elves run. That's their thing. Maybe you should set NPC c-elves to run even, any time they randomly move in some direction, to better get the point across that elves are runners. If c-elves can do this fairly reliably and regularly, then the change is no big deal. If c-elves just walk everywhere from now on, this change is without a doubt a bad one.

Just my two cents. Disagree and discombobulate at your leisure.

if? I think once people calm down about the loss of their free movement in cities they will realize how much of a buff  C.elves got here.

Want to play an elf smuggler? It's now much easier.
Want to be the elf in the Byn? It's now much less of an inconvenience for everyone, including yourself.

"But 30 stamina is only like 6 rooms of movement"

Yes, but that's 1/7th the trip to Luirs, from Allanak. (and that math ignores the stretch that's road btw)
that 6 rooms of movement makes it so an elf with average stamina can walk to Luirs from Allanak with one rest stop.

For the 12 years I have been playing this game, people have been begging for it to be made easier for c.elves to travel. And staff have been 100% against it.

Well now it's finally happened. And ya'll are worried about being a little sweaty running around the rinth.

[Suhuy]

I don't believe the purpose of the change was to make it easier for city elves to travel outside the city. Wasn't it to allow them to still run effectively inside the city, like they've always done? If I want an elf that has more ability to travel the desert, I'll play a desert elf.

As I've said, whether it's a helpful change or a hindrance remains to be seen. We'll know soon enough. If city elves can still run reliably and regularly in a city, then there's nothing more to be said. If the future of city elves is that they just walk everywhere from now on, then the change is a bad one.

And whether the running aspect of elves is what appeals to you about the race or not, it is in fact a major part of the elven culture/mindset. So much so that an entire taboo around riding animals and entering wagons exists. Because elves run. That's their thing. You guys seem to think I'm totally against this change. I'm not. At least not yet. I'm fairly skeptical about it, but again: we'll  see. My only concern at all is for city elves to still be able to run in the city. It doesn't have to be an infinite run but it also shouldn't  be so inconvenient that players just walk instead. Beyond that, I really don't care.

[Brytta Léofa]

I was looking at distances in Allanak yesterday (on my map, silly). All approximate:

25 rooms from the southwest corner of the Commoners' Quarter to Meleth's Circle.
30 rooms from the Gaj to Hathor's.
35 from the Gaj to the Byn compound.
15 from Merchant's Cross to the Kadian compound.
40 from the west gate to the east gate.
20 from the rinth entrance to the Folley or the Mantis.

A city elf with, say, 130-170 movement points should now be able to run all the way across the city 3-4 times before complete exhaustion. For skulduggery/escape purposes, he doesn't want to fall below, say, 40 points (to be sure of managing a run from a crime scene to a safe-ish resting spot), but that leaves room for 3+ 30-room runs without resting.

[Void]

I can almost guarantee no celves will be running the city even with a few more stamina. You can't risk getting tired in case a fight happens, since fights use up a fair bit of stamina due to their skillset. Next stealth will get nerfed when all we have are invisible miscreants. lol

And the above posts shows roughly a hundred rooms. Celves should have delf level stamina given the size of cities or running isn't going to be a thing for elves.

[Narf]

And the above posts shows roughly a hundred rooms. Celves should have delf level stamina given the size of cities or running isn't going to be a thing for elves.

The above post shows routes. You can't combine them, they overlap. The longest route is 40 rooms and takes you from one side of the city to the other. 40 stamina to run all the way across the city is perfectly reasonable. In fact, if you subtract their 30 free stamina, that's  actually less than it used to cost them (some of the old rooms still costed stamina to traverse).

[Void]

My bad. Misread. That isn't as crippling but I still don't think this was a needed change. The problem raised is stealth...not the supposed innate ability for elves to run a lot.

[Yelinak]

It seems to me that stealth is unaffected. Walking (or sneaking) costs no movement in cities.

Honestly, this adjustment doesn't seem like it would change anything for real. City elves running at 1 stamina per room shouldn't realistically end up in a situation where they just can't go on and are killed by the lynch mob. It doesn't sound like a thing that really happens. In reality, who runs around the city two or three times and still needs more gas?

Although as a side-effect of this change, we now have sandstorms inside the city, which is a little awkward.

[Fredd]

It seems to me that stealth is unaffected. Walking (or sneaking) costs no movement in cities.

Honestly, this adjustment doesn't seem like it would change anything for real. City elves running at 1 stamina per room shouldn't realistically end up in a situation where they just can't go on and are killed by the lynch mob. It doesn't sound like a thing that really happens. In reality, who runs around the city two or three times and still needs more gas?

Although as a side-effect of this change, we now have sandstorms inside the city, which is a little awkward.

Doesn't effect stealth at all. Stealth, contrary to popular belief, does not have a difficulty increase based on where you sneak. (there are difficulties for hide in narrow hallways, but not sneak) So this shouldn't effect stealth, or it will be a "slight" buff if a room or two was labled as a hallway, and was outdoors.

[Brokkr]

Although as a side-effect of this change, we now have sandstorms inside the city, which is a little awkward.

That isn't a side-effect, that was the intended change.

[Krath]

Was it intentional that Elves can move faster than Half giants?

[Dan]

Was it intentional that Elves can move faster than Half giants?

Not sure if I understand - but this has always been the case.

[Krath]

Thank you Dan, I had just noticed this and was not sure if part of the "Coding" change made to celves was this.

[Lotion]

YES THANK YOU FOR FIXING THE LANGUAGE BUG THAT WAS SO ANNOYING

[Yelinak]

Although as a side-effect of this change, we now have sandstorms inside the city, which is a little awkward.

That isn't a side-effect, that was the intended change.

There has been a near-permanent sandstorm inside Allanak since this change. It's a little dumb.

[FamousAmos]

The walls of Allanak shouldn't cause such a dense sand storm within as, in example, Luir's.

[Fredd]

The walls of Allanak shouldn't cause such a dense sand storm within as, in example, Luir's.

I disagree. But for playability sake, maybe staff should adjust how strong the storms get inside the walls, and how often.

[perfecto]

The walls of Allanak shouldn't cause such a dense sand storm within as, in example, Luir's.

I disagree. But for playability sake, maybe staff should adjust how strong the storms get inside the walls, and how often.

just for argument sake, the weather (just) outside the walls and the weather within has been on par.  So at least there's that.

[BadSkeelz]

Following changes are taking place:

Bartenders have been revamped.  Here and there you'll see price changes, and the Cenyri bartender got a facelift.  Menu options might be different in a couple places, and if you're used to ordering "the usual" then you will want to check price before you do.

Much of this is due to the brilliant work of Nessalin in revamping the drink system.  Basic/necessary liquids like water and ale should be pretty much priced at the same level if not a bit less in public taverns.

And this is where the news gets bad for you high falutin snobs:

Specialty liquors such as wines and rare whiskeys are now priced accordingly.  If you think they're too expensive, you probably need to get more money.  This should hopefully help put forth the idea that a nice bottle of wine is actually a really good gift, like it should be.

Additionally, taste messages were updated for a load of northern liquors which did not have them, including but not limited to:

jaluar wine
japuaar wine
petoch wine
reynolte dry
mead
dark ale

I dislike all of these changes. Just seems more incentive to grind for coin and addressing a non-existent issue.

[MeTekillot]

I agree with BadSkeelz.

[Brokkr]

Except there actually was an issue, in that the value of liquids had nothing to do with the liquid, just the container it was in.  Which isn't a problem if you only sell the containers full of the liquid, but is a problem when merchants are buying back empty containers (with the same exact base cost values they had when they were getting sold full).

It may not have been an issue that impacted you much, but it was an issue.