Release Note discussion!

[wizturbo]

Stealth code shouldn't work in hallways or apartments.  Make them no hide.  Problems solved.  Can still burglar but you're taking more risk.

[Armaddict]

I don't know why hiding in apartments would be so hard...

Hallways already have a very very significant penalty to them, though it's likely some were missed/not included.  Again...I think there should be a way to bar the door from inside.  If you don't sleep in your apartment, well...you don't bar the door.  Most of the time, it means you're going to be online when you get burgled.

[Fredd]

I don't know why hiding in apartments would be so hard...

Hallways already have a very very significant penalty to them, though it's likely some were missed/not included.  Again...I think there should be a way to bar the door from inside.  If you don't sleep in your apartment, well...you don't bar the door.  Most of the time, it means you're going to be online when you get burgled.

I do think the hall penalty should be increased a bit. I am 100000000000% in favour of a stealth tye being able t train their abilities enough to do near-supernatural stuff. Some of my favourite book series had assassins and thieves that were like this (Shanara had an amazing assassin that got stronger by looking into people eyes when they die and would do stuff like this.) But it is a little to easy to get to that level of skill IMHO. But then again, i don't know what the DC of therolls are in the first plac,e so I could be wrong. Jus my feeling from playing so any stealthies over the years (as my favourite thing to play, followed by Rukkians)

[th3kaiser]

I don't really have a dog in this fight as I've not seen this be a problem (have avoided Nak for a while) but have we considered if this is such a big deal why not just increase all stealth skill gains to be like weapon skills. That'd do it right there. No more throwaway miscreants you can stealth max in a couple days of play.

[HeeBeeGB]

I think stealth just needs to be less binary. You should be able to break stealth with scan and with listen, maybe even be able to 'watch shadow' which puts you on alert for people sneaking around, at a large penalty to your stun.

Part of the issue is how binary the code is. If I don't have skinning, and I have a pile of bone lengths, I can't for the life of me figure out how to separate them into short and long lengths. Similarly, if someone is sneaking around like a ninja, if my PC does not have scan (but has listen), I will never be able to find that sneaky person. The fact that Invisibility is just as easily seen by someone with (master) scan as someone who is hiding points out something is a bit off to me.

I would say Stealth Code is one of the last bastions of old DIKU code that I would love to see updated to be more realistic for both sides.

For instance, they were working on hiding in barrels/crates/chests for Armageddon Reborn. That would be a nice route to take for hiding in general -- Finding objects to hide in or behind, or having to 'hide crowd' for the city rooms. Adding 'search' to all  characters, and it allows them to search the room for hiding spots. So on a crowded street, you might see a 'pavilion' object, and you can 'hide pavilion' to hide behind it. Or, there might be a half-giant soldier you can attempt to hide behind, which only masters would be able to pull off. There could be modifiers added that make it harder or easier to hide. 'hide in barrel' as opposed to 'hide behind barrel', or 'hide behind pavilion' versus 'hide above pavilion'. Climb and Sneak could come into play as modifiers for perceived success.

On the converse, if someone thinks someone is hiding in a person's chest of drawers in their apartment, they can 'search chest' and see if there is a person in it, or behind it, or above it, or below it. They could search the room for shadows (search room), and depending on their listen/scan/search skill, it will yield something or nothing. Perhaps add a timer to the search skill with a specific object or room, so if someone searched it already, they can't do so again for X amount of time. Allowing both sides to utilize 'search' in this fashion I think is a win for both sides.

[KittenLicks]

I don't think staff will ever implement something requiring that much work (I mean, why would they? Stealth is neat, but it's probably not a big enough problem to warrant a multi-month long project) but that's a really damn cool idea.

Armageddon has a bunch of furniture objects already. Throw a steep penalty on hiding without a crowd, and allow hide <furniture> and search <furniture> to reach that level of "i'm invisible" everyone gets now. Make it a game of soldiers upturning every table in the tavern trying to find an elf, and the elf trying to find the least conspicuous hiding place. Bonus points if the search skill plays into it, so it has an actual use.

Heck, it even encourages hiding people to think about how they're hiding, which the current code actively discourages, since you can't 'change ldesc' while hidden. Forum kudos to you, HeeBeeGB.

[CodeMaster]

Not sure if I still count as discussing the release notes, and I'm not currently very active, but I'll add that stealth has seen power inflation over the years while becoming more featureful.

1. The sleight of hand skill used to not exist, so when you opened a door or drew a weapon such as from a knife belt, everyone would see it happen... and you'd break hide! This made hidden people easier to keep tabs on, and made hidden people who forgot to draw a weapon more vulnerable.  And if you _did_ remember to draw your weapon, you made yourself fair game for the militia.

2. These days new PCs start with higher skills, such as languages (city elves and dwarves could barely speak sirihish!) and contact in particular.  Using the Way while standing used to be extremely risky for non-veteran PCs.  Now it's not, and you can do it while hidden.

3. Subguilds were added, which enabled mixed indoor/outdoor stealth characters.  The new classes were added, which also creates many cool stealth options with fewer sacrifices.  (City stealth used to force you to choose between pickpocket, burglar, and assassin, all of which were specialized and fragile early on.)

4. The biggest one: it used to be that you couldn't move while hidden unless you were shadowing someone.  If you wanted to be undetectable, that meant you had to team up with someone to take point, or shadow one PC to the next in the hopes that they'd bring you where you wanted to be.  It made sneak/hide a little less binary, and rewarded learning people's routines (and these days there are NPCs with routines).

I'd be inclined to revisit 4 as an easy way to nerf stealth a bit -- make it so that moving inside a city breaks hide.

[Armaddict]

4. The biggest one: it used to be that you couldn't move while hidden unless you were shadowing someone.  If you wanted to be undetectable, that meant you had to team up with someone to take point, or shadow one PC to the next in the hopes that they'd bring you where you wanted to be.  It made sneak/hide a little less binary, and rewarded learning people's routines (and these days there are NPCs with routines).

Over time I've suggested a few things for stealth, this is probably the 'easiest' thing.  If nothing else, it made it so that people being watchful could actually spot stealthy people entering the room...it wasn't a -notice- from the game, but when you were paranoid, well...you saw more things.

I played stealthies far more than anything else.  I don't really agree that it's -overpowered- or anything, because of just how dependent you are on it in pretty much every scenario to just avoid death.  But I don't like the way it functions in particular relation to more casual use...being able to just walk around the whole city without ever coming out of hiding is ridiculous.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Would reducing the scan/watch/listen of NPCs be beneficial? One of the main reasons to twink stealth is to get around soldiers if you're wanted. This means the only way to get +jman is to sneak around PCs with high Scan/listen/watch. Meaning there will be far fewer twink stealths. This is a variation of the combat strategy as its now nigh impossible to get advanced weapons skills through normal means from anything in the game naturally. It's reliant more on other players than animals and gith. This would slow down the skill gain and SHOULD add more risk to sneaky petes.

[perfecto]

-Contact no longer applies stun penalties when already in contact or when using barrier

Just my op, but I feel like this 'should' still stun ya when ya goof up and do it?  I'm %99 sure nobody has ever done this on purpose.. but the sting of doing it.. oooooooOOoooOOOoooo

It reminds us all to Pay Attention

[Hauwke]

The words in capitals not being scrambled is great!

[Barsook]

The words in capitals not being scrambled is great!

Thank you staff. <3

[BOXCARS]

-Contact no longer applies stun penalties when already in contact or when using barrier


I feel so called out.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think I would have liked to see, rather than CAPS to denote unscrambling, enclosing the word in <>. That way you can still yell, ie: making sure that FUCKING YELLING remains a thing, while also being about to denote unscrambled words without yelling.

[Patuk]

I think I would have liked to see, rather than CAPS to denote unscrambling, enclosing the word in <>. That way you can still yell, ie: making sure that FUCKING YELLING remains a thing, while also being about to denote unscrambled words without yelling.

Thank you. The day I get executed for yelling GO HUMP A 'TOK YOU FUCKWIT at a templar in Allundean will be a sad one indeed.

[BOXCARS]

I prefer italics, bold or underline to all caps. Its a little bit jarring, heavy handed and indistinct what its communicating at times, as evidenced by the raised concern that enunciating a specific word might be confused with yelling.

I say change it to italics. Yelling a word doesn't make it more clear, saying it clearly and specifically does and that might slow you down if you are unfamiliar with a language or talking to someone who is unfamiliar with yours.

[Hauwke]

Not everyone uses the emphasis features though, I know I don't because I prefer *symbols* to shapely words.

[Lotion]

I think there should be a separate formatting independent of bold,italic,underline,caps that should prevent mangling. It's going to be very obnixous if I start putting "random" words in allcaps and someone says "why are you yelling?" and then I have to type `ooc Currently this is the only way to prevent language code from mangling these words that I believe shouldn't be mangled.`
and I will always allcaps those words because what if there's someone not visible in the room who doesn't speak my language? (also why you should use !@#%^&etc. emote targeting in one on one scenes instead of "you your etc.". Imagine you're Amos the Assassin and shadow Amos the Aide into his apartment with Talia the Aide and they start kanking and keep referring to "you" how will you not type `ooc I'm hiding and it's echoing "you" at me. Are you both fondling me?`)

[Maso]

Nothing is perfect but it is funny seeing someone post "Words in caps used to be unscrambled, but the mechanic was weird and easy to abuse," and then we immediately get this feature despite the pitfalls around it being described upon first mention.

I believe this feature existed in its original form before the Way. So it was abused as a technique to overcome language barriers. We now have the Way for this, which is an allowable way to circumvent language barriers, so the need to abuse this feature to that end is basically nullified.

Also, I think the RP culture of Arm has come a long way since then. That was...a very long time ago.

[zealus]

Sure, you address the "abusable" aspect in your reply but not the "weird," AKA the awkwardness of this feature.

I totally get where the desire for this feature comes from. I can hear unpalatable slang cross language like "gweilo" and "gringo" plain as day, but that has come with practice and I have noticed not everyone is so good at it and most people don't even know what these words mean. That is because people do not typically YELL slang like this. Why would anyone yell secretive slurs like this? I think most people like subtlety in their roleplay rather than YELLING. The feature would be so much more palatable if it weren't dependent on capitalization.

I mean, caps are just funny and jarring. One of my workplaces had a slack channel called #YELLING where you were only allowed to use capslock BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE AGREE CAPS IMPLIES YELLING.

It was hilarious.

Because in this context, it's text, conveying a word not scrambled by the language code, just how the word "Sirihish" implies a language other then english, despite the language being typed is english.

I think it's mostly put back in, because this was how it was done before, therefore the easiest to implement on short notice. I agree that another way of doing it, is preferable, but the caps lock does not ALWAYS imply yelling, sometimes it's used for emphasis

There is a distinct difference between
Hello there, YAJAH
and
YAHJAH! HOW DARE YOU?!

Because the exclamation point is yelling

[Brokkr]

The functionality is there for when you have a specific need to convey something that should be the same word in both languages.  Like your name.  Not every single time.

Rather than say the word 5 times until they indicate they understand that you are Malik.
Or switching to the Way to convey that your name is Malik, even though the Way should be less useful at conveying your name than words are.

Yajah is the kind of word that is a good example of something this should never, ever, be used for.  Its a word in a specific language, not a proper noun that carries over.  Heck, even Allanak, for instance, might not carry over because Sirihish Allanak and Allundean Black pit.

[LindseyBalboa]

The functionality is there for when you have a specific need to convey something that should be the same word in both languages.  Like your name.  Not every single time.

Rather than say the word 5 times until they indicate they understand that you are Malik.
Or switching to the Way to convey that your name is Malik, even though the Way should be less useful at conveying your name than words are.

Yajah is the kind of word that is a good example of something this should never, ever, be used for.  Its a word in a specific language, not a proper noun that carries over.  Heck, even Allanak, for instance, might not carry over because Sirihish Allanak and Allundean Black pit.

That needs to be codified somewhere, as there is obvious confusion on this intention.

As there will be even less use for this code now (it is rarely used by intent) there is even more reason to switch away from ALLCAPS being the trigger. ALLCAPS yelling has emphasized some great RP - a normally quiet individual erupts, someone calls out to warn a loved one of danger, a character is REALLY hungry and tired of waiting. Any other symbol would be great. #MyName# or something.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I love the idea that we can say the word in both languages, and it be read. But yeah, I'd like to enclose the word in symbols as opposed to all capping it, if it can be done. Because i when scream fuck at gith, they don't need to know the curse I've used on them.

Tell gith (straining against the ropes,  causing the bone stake to creak) ... no ... no ... No ... NOOOOOOO ... augh! ARGH!  Don't rip my other toes ooooff! *Mathoeris* will rip your balls off! No, no. No, NO!!!

[perfecto]

In regards to the new Crafting format is there anyway the implemented changes could be toggled back to normal with one of the "brief" settings?  For us old timers it's a shock to the system seeing it as it reads now.

[X-D]

Seconding Perfecto here.