Release Note discussion!

[Insigne]

Very little has actually changed from the original spreadsheet. The trend between the new subclasses still seems to be that combat and utility skills max out at advanced. Brokkr has also said this earlier in this thread:

... and no changes to existing subclasses yet.

Does this mean that the changes detailed out in the original spreadsheet will eventually be pushed out?

[only_plays_tribals]

Very little has actually changed from the original spreadsheet. The trend between the new subclasses still seems to be that combat and utility skills max out at advanced. Brokkr has also said this earlier in this thread:

... and no changes to existing subclasses yet.

Does this mean that the changes detailed out in the original spreadsheet will eventually be pushed out?

There's no master anything (except crafting skills in some cases) on the subclasses now.
Also scan has been added to a few. That's just what I've noticed. Been like that a while, I forget when I noticed.

[perfecto]

By using SCIENCE I can determine that / Very little has actually changed / Edit: look at me not being an ass.

Thats what I've gathered so far from this convo

Ok I as well will stop being an Ass now.

[number13]

Not a suggestion, just an idle thought -- it would more interesting if your main guild was the one where skills were capped at Advanced, with your subguild providing skills capped at Master.

As if to say, "I'm generally pretty good at all things X, but really stupid good specifically at Y."

[yousuff]

Not a suggestion, just an idle thought -- it would more interesting if your main guild was the one where skills were capped at Advanced, with your subguild providing skills capped at Master.

As if to say, "I'm generally pretty good at all things X, but really stupid good specifically at Y."

This too is a tasty thought.

[evilcabbage]

god no. the main class is supposed to be what you excel at - it's that area of abilities that you focus on that you typically would be better at. subclasses are supposed to be more like hobby skills to round yourself out.

[nessalin]

god no. the main class is supposed to be what you excel at - it's that area of abilities that you focus on that you typically would be better at. subclasses are supposed to be more like hobby skills to round yourself out.

Main Class: M&Ms
Subclass: Skittles

[Lutagar]

god no. the main class is supposed to be what you excel at - it's that area of abilities that you focus on that you typically would be better at. subclasses are supposed to be more like hobby skills to round yourself out.

adding to this that newbies are already arbitrarily punished enough by being locked out of mundane ESG's, if i was a new player and saw i could only play literal trash until i'd played for at least 5 years then i probably wouldn't stick around

[evilcabbage]

you aren't playing literal trash, the esgs do not instantly make you god-tier.

[Akariel]

It's also fairly uncommon for an active new player to go more than a year without requesting (and getting) a karma review to push them to 1 karma.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Yea. This would be true only if regular classes couldn't reach the same levels of power that esg's could reach, and most certainly they can. In other words, I can be just as powerful in a role with 0 karma as I could with a karma class, it would just take me longer to get there. Having a magick or esg is helpful, but only if your PC can last a very long time, which typically coincides with the amount of karma you have gained.

[Lutagar]

you aren't playing literal trash, the esgs do not instantly make you god-tier.

not having an ESG is a handicap atm, if the system was changed so classes were the lesser caps and subguilds were the only way to achieve mastery then yes new players would be stuck with literal trash

the majority of skills on armageddon are worthless unless they're (master)

[Armaddict]

the majority of skills on armageddon are worthless unless they're (master)

Oh, visible skill levels, how I -hate- you.

[Narf]

you aren't playing literal trash, the esgs do not instantly make you god-tier.

the majority of skills on armageddon are worthless unless they're (master)

This is horrifically incorrect. There are a tiny handful of skills that get you into too much trouble for failure to use without a good chance of success, but that success can be guaranteed with attributes and an advanced skill.

The vast majority of skills are useful at lower levels, and there are a significant number of skills where master level is more of a vanity medal than anything else.

[Dar]

you aren't playing literal trash, the esgs do not instantly make you god-tier.

the majority of skills on armageddon are worthless unless they're (master)

This is horrifically incorrect. There are a tiny handful of skills that get you into too much trouble for failure to use without a good chance of success, but that success can be guaranteed with attributes and an advanced skill.

The vast majority of skills are useful at lower levels, and there are a significant number of skills where master level is more of a vanity medal than anything else.

climb, steal, sleight of hand, sneak, hide, scan. Would probably be the skills that people need to be certain to have maximized. Like Brokkr said in another thread. Not a good idea to go climbing around, without making sure you have a no-fail climb.

[Lutagar]

you aren't playing literal trash, the esgs do not instantly make you god-tier.

the majority of skills on armageddon are worthless unless they're (master)

This is horrifically incorrect. There are a tiny handful of skills that get you into too much trouble for failure to use without a good chance of success, but that success can be guaranteed with attributes and an advanced skill.

The vast majority of skills are useful at lower levels, and there are a significant number of skills where master level is more of a vanity medal than anything else.

if you genuinely, unironically believe this then you've never seen how much of a difference a neckshot makes to a regular shot

[Narf]

you aren't playing literal trash, the esgs do not instantly make you god-tier.

the majority of skills on armageddon are worthless unless they're (master)

This is horrifically incorrect. There are a tiny handful of skills that get you into too much trouble for failure to use without a good chance of success, but that success can be guaranteed with attributes and an advanced skill.

The vast majority of skills are useful at lower levels, and there are a significant number of skills where master level is more of a vanity medal than anything else.

if you genuinely, unironically believe this then you've never seen how much of a difference a neckshot makes to a regular shot

That argument has no validity on an argument about "The majority" of skills. Your words, not mine.

[MeTekillot]

What kind of weak bitch doesn't use steal until master? Smoke em if you got em

[Bogre]

you aren't playing literal trash, the esgs do not instantly make you god-tier.

the majority of skills on armageddon are worthless unless they're (master)

This is horrifically incorrect. There are a tiny handful of skills that get you into too much trouble for failure to use without a good chance of success, but that success can be guaranteed with attributes and an advanced skill.

The vast majority of skills are useful at lower levels, and there are a significant number of skills where master level is more of a vanity medal than anything else.

climb, steal, sleight of hand, sneak, hide, scan. Would probably be the skills that people need to be certain to have maximized. Like Brokkr said in another thread. Not a good idea to go climbing around, without making sure you have a no-fail climb.

Not really. All of the above skills work at lower levels than master. And for the most part, you're getting to success nearly every time by the time you reach advanced.

[evilcabbage]

climb at advanced is basically nofail climb in all but the hardest of climbing scenarios, so...

[Synthesis]

ITT:  a bunch of people who want thieves to fail and die.

Even at master sleight of hand, with egood elf agility at light encumbrance you'll fail latch and unlatch frequently.  Fails on door opens probably 1 out of 4, 1 out of 5.

Even at master steal, you will crit-fail under a certain circumstance, especially if you haven't committed item weights to memory and you accidentally try to yoink a weird 5-stone dagger.

At master scan, I never spotted another PC who wasn't a noob.  Known guild-sniffed infiltrators...never spotted them hiding, not even a shadow to try to watch.  I don't know who you're catching hiding, but they obviously aren't very good at it.  The weird thing about infiltrator hide seems to be that once they -get- hidden, they can beat scan, but they still seem to abjectly fail at getting hidden a fair percentage of the time, and they really suck at sneak+hiding.

Master climb is solid everywhere in Allanak, at least.

Low-advanced parry without base O/D is trash.  Enough to maaaaybe give you a chance to flee against a really good opponent.

[Nao]

I've utilized most of these skills to no end at advanced, on a character with high agi that I played for 50+ days.  You need to be a bit more careful, but they're far from useless, or a death sentence.

[Heade]

At master scan, I never spotted another PC who wasn't a noob.

Maybe I'm just noob, then.

I've been spotted with master sneak/hide shadowing someone for 2 rooms with exceptional human agility, no heavy armor, easily managable encumbrance, and 5+ pieces of stealth gear. No, generally people wouldn't see me if I hide in a single location and never move. But I think I'm pretty OK with that dynamic.

Static master hide will beat master scan, but master scan seems to beat master sneak/hide if you try to move.

I imagine stats factor into this, as well. While it's quite common to see a sneak with prioritized agility, it's probably pretty rare for someone with master scan to have prioritized wisdom. So it's entirely possible that the problem between them is simply that, once bonus from stats is factored in, the person with stealth NORMALLY has a higher stat boost to the associated skill than the person with master scan.

[Delirium]

easily managable encumbrance

there's one problem.

[MeTekillot]

Better hope you don't get dinged with elf strength so low that your starting gear has you at that