Release Note discussion!

[Miradus]

The release notes said they fixed the Karma regen.

WHAT? I missed it!

ETA: Aha! Yet it didn't honor "time served". I'm still at zero.

[Dar]

Consider sending in a request about it?

[Miradus]

Consider sending in a request about it?

Yeah. Time for another one, it seems. Quickly, before I die.

(For the record, this is my third request on this since the change went in. I know how the request system works.)

[Brokkr]

Not to be a negative nancy, but is Wastelander just shitty Grebber but can forage food and wilderness quit?

Dear Negative Nancy,

They share exactly 1 skill, direction sense. They also share one ability, to forage for food in the wilderness (note Wastelanders don't have the forage skill, it just allows your forage skill you get from your main class to find food).

So I dunno?  It probably depends on which things you value in a character.

As a note, somehow some of the help files meant for after skill changes to subclasses got released early.  So like with Grebber, right now they can only hunt/forage for food in the wilderness.  But that will change to be both city/wilderness, like the helpfile says.

[Dar]

That fix went in 3 hours ago Good luck!

[yousuff]

Some of the subguilds seem to have a bit of overlap. Shame they're all karma locked though. Just as a note, since karma is supposed to lock away powerful characters how are the likes of swordsman/aggrressor/lancer/whatever exceptionally powerful? Tack one onto a class that doesn't get them (a crafting one) and... You still have a subpar fighting character. I mean from a coded point of view, is swordsman etc.. really as hard to trust players with as say, a krathi or whiran?

[Miradus]

I don't mind overlap. It just feels like we're on our way to a point system where you build your own character.

[Synthesis]

Some of the subguilds seem to have a bit of overlap. Shame they're all karma locked though. Just as a note, since karma is supposed to lock away powerful characters how are the likes of swordsman/aggrressor/lancer/whatever exceptionally powerful? Tack one onto a class that doesn't get them (a crafting one) and... You still have a subpar fighting character. I mean from a coded point of view, is swordsman etc.. really as hard to trust players with as say, a krathi or whiran?

Dune trader/swordsman, adventurer/swordsman, and craftsperson/swordsman all seem like reasonable 'nakki-based choices for a crafter who doesn't want to just sit around an apartment all the time.  The only question is how well advanced slashing/parry works with the base O/D.  I'm guessing it's at least enough to not get instagibbed.

Definitely not as powerful as a magick subguild, especially since it's really going to be a niche pick.  It's either "crafters who kinda want to fight" or "raiders who want people to think they're fighters out of the box and don't mind sacrificing basically an entire subguild pick for a single skill."

[Decameron]

For those too lazy ..

Master Woodworker

With a knack for carving, polishing and otherwise working wood, the Master Woodworker is capable of crafting the medium into different forms. They can prove to be talented salesmen, when seeking to make a profit from their creativity and hard work. They are capable at felling logs to support themselves and breaking them into smaller pieces to be more easily worked on. Master Woodworkers begin play with skill in haggle, axe making, club making, woodworking and lumberjacking. They can achieve mastery in axe making, club making and woodworking, allowing them to custom craft these types of items. They can achieve an advanced level in haggling and lumberjacking.
Notes:
The Master Woodworker subguild costs 1 temporary karma point (which will be regenerated over time).

Marksman

With uncannily good aim, the Marksman are skilled with all types of ranged weapons. They are able to practice their craft more easily than some others as they can make their own ammunition. Those among them who excel learn to craft their weapons, finely tuned to the needs of their owner. Marksen begin play with archery, blowgun use, crossbow use, sling use and fletchery. They can achieve an advanced level in archery, blowgun use, crossbow use and sling use. They can achieve mastery in fletchery, and by practicing this can learn to craft their own weapons with bow making, achieving mastery in this area as well. They are able to custom craft both their weapons and ammunition, creating pieces tuned to the needs of the owner.
Notes:
The Marksman subclass costs 2 temporary karma point (which will be regenerated over time).

Roughrider - D - M - X

Born with an innate rapport with riding beasts of all kinds, the Roughrider is well versed in travelling and caring for these beasts. Ride or die. They are known to be able to lead a string of a couple of mounts that they have tamed themselves into the cities for sale. What you really want? Combat from atop their mounts is not unknown to them, and they can charge their opponents to place them at a disadvantage. Money, Power, RESPECT. Roughriders begin play with skill in ride and charge. Shut 'em down, open up shop. They can achieve an advanced level in ride and charge. You think this is a game? They can hitch two mounts and those amongst them skilled at riding can tame appropriate beasts to use as mounts.
Notes:
The Roughrider subguild costs 2 temporary karma point (which will be regenerated over time).

Wastelander

Used to making do without the trappings of civilization, the Wastelander is able to live in the wilderness for extended periods of time. They are known to be able to navigate the storms whipping through the deserts. They can sustain themselves with food that they find while foraging. Most know at least some Bendune, the common tongue of the most commonly encountered tribal cultures in the wastes. Wastelanders begin play with direction sense and bendune. They can achieve mastery of Bendune and an advanced level of direction sense. They can forage for food in the wilderness. They can make camp (quit) in wilderness room.
Example(s):
The Wastelander subguild costs 1 temporary karma point (which will be regenerated over time).

Swordsman

Possessing a background in the use of a sword or other cutting weapons, the Swordsman is skilled with their weapon in ways many are not. They are adepts at the back and forth of weapon play, learning to gracefully parry as well as return a deflected attack with a riposte. Watching their opponent for signs of the next attack is something they are well versed in as well. Swordsmen begin play with slashing weapons, parry and watch. They can achieve an advanced level in slashing weapons, parry and watch. When they are experienced in parrying their opponents strikes, they can learn to riposte them as well, up to an advanced level.
Notes:
The Swordsman subguild costs 2 temporary karma point (which will be regenerated over time).

Reaver

Possessing a background in the use of an axe or other chopping weapons, the Reaver is skilled with their weapon in ways many are not. They launch brutal attacks that damage the shields and armor of their opponents. They are versed in attacking the weapons of those they fight as well, disarming them to gain an advantage. This offensive orientation towards the protection of their opponents has taught them how to defend with a shield, as well as how to repair armor once it has been damaged. Reavers begin play with chopping weapons, hack, disarm, shield use and armor repair. They can achieve an advanced level in chopping weapons, hack, disarm, shield use and armor repair.
Notes:
The Reaver subguild costs 2 temporary karma point (which will be regenerated over time).

[lostinspace]

I feel like swordsman should get something to do with dual wield, just comparing it to reaver. I do not however have any idea how strong reposte is, maybe it's as good as having disarm and hack.

[Veselka]

Also these dubguilds don't start with advanced do they? Just the ability to get to advanced.

[Miradus]

They fixed my karma bug like 20 minutes after I put in the request. Awesome.

So ... what is "advanced" anyway?

On the point system, there's a lot of difference between "just turned advanced" and "at the top end of advanced".

I keep looking at the main guild "scout" compared to "stalker" and both get advanced, but clearly scout is probably the better fighter. I'd like to know HOW high in advanced the various things get.

[cnemus]

Discussing the changes to subguilds and mentions of relative position in the skill tiers. The table on page 4 posted by Brokkr is particularly useful:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53906.msg1017057.html#msg1017057

For the general discussion of the new classes:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/board,144.0.html

[Lutagar]

lmao @ roughrider

why would anyone ever want high riding but no DS, it's not like riding is worthwhile in cities

and it can't even be used in synergy with any other classes because all classes that have DS already have super high ride and probably charge

Edit: why would this be 2rpp it's on par with magick subguilds but is worthless

[mansa]

lmao @ roughrider

why would anyone ever want high riding but no DS, it's not like riding is worthwhile in cities

and it can't even be used in synergy with any other classes because all classes that have DS already have super high ride and probably charge

Edit: why would this be 2rpp it's on par with magick subguilds but is worthless

@Brokkr
Shouldn't Roughrider also get TRAMPLE http://armageddon.org/help/view/Trample

It's definitely underpowered, IMO.

[Namino]

By using SCIENCE I can determine that only two classes stand to actually reasonably gain from being a roughrider.

Adventurer and Dune Trader.

Both of these have DS so can actually ride around reliably but lack charge, so picking this subguild is useful for them. They already both have advanced ride so they're really just paying 2 karma points for charge on a class not designed for combat.

Unless we're going to argue that being able to hitch extra mounts is god-mode now.

[Brytta Léofa]

Brah, probably that came off harsher than you intended but it sounded to me like you were trying to be insulting. You could say exactly the same thing better (IMO) with a slight shift of tone--it's super effective:

I have some doubts about Roughrider.

High riding skill is only useful in the wilderness, but without direction sense wilderness play is dangerous if not suicidal.

Nor does it synergize well with other classes, since those classes with direction sense already have high ride skill and probably charge.

Edit: and a cost of 2 CGP seems excessive, given the limitations I've pointed out and relative to the very high power and utility of the magic subguilds available for the same cost.

[Brokkr]

lmao @ roughrider

why would anyone ever want high riding but no DS, it's not like riding is worthwhile in cities

and it can't even be used in synergy with any other classes because all classes that have DS already have super high ride and probably charge

Edit: why would this be 2rpp it's on par with magick subguilds but is worthless

@Brokkr
Shouldn't Roughrider also get TRAMPLE http://armageddon.org/help/view/Trample

It's definitely underpowered, IMO.

You really haven't looked at the helpfiles very closely.

[teacup]

lmao @ roughrider

why would anyone ever want high riding but no DS, it's not like riding is worthwhile in cities

and it can't even be used in synergy with any other classes because all classes that have DS already have super high ride and probably charge

Edit: why would this be 2rpp it's on par with magick subguilds but is worthless

@Brokkr
Shouldn't Roughrider also get TRAMPLE http://armageddon.org/help/view/Trample

It's definitely underpowered, IMO.

You really haven't looked at the helpfiles very closely.

The helpfiles aren't exactly that easy to read. If I go to Subguild on the Website there isn't even information on Roughrider or the others mentioned in Release Notes because these are in Extended Subguilds which you don't know from the post by Nessalin. Not super easy to even find. Unless you know that trample/charge are for expert riders you would not know that Roughriders come with it. This is not clear to new players like me. Why does this cost 2 karma?

[lostinspace]

Code Release - New subclasses, gender and spice aging changes.
--Nessalin

Pulled this from the website news, what's this about gender? I didn't see anything about it in the release notes forum entry.

[Brytta Léofa]

Edit: look at me not being an ass.

[Bogre]

The whole design of DS is that wilderness guides / scout types get it. It's designed so that someone with that utility can be utilized to guide a party of thuggy bruiser types around.

So it can give your Enforcer/Infiltrator Fighter/Soldier some ability to be heavy cavalry.

It can also break open charge for your wilderness tiered folks without having to branch it.

I think it'd be useful in that sense, but not sure its worth 2 cgp rather than 1.

[Lutagar]

The whole design of DS is that wilderness guides / scout types get it. It's designed so that someone with that utility can be utilized to guide a party of thuggy bruiser types around.

So it can give your Enforcer/Infiltrator Fighter/Soldier some ability to be heavy cavalry.

It can also break open charge for your wilderness tiered folks without having to branch it.

I think it'd be useful in that sense, but not sure its worth 2 cgp rather than 1.

there's already subguilds that give you super high riding + DS + other perks

grebber: hunt, ride, forage, direction sense, climb, search - 1 karma

RR: ride + charge - 2 karma

i'll admit charge is pretty nifty but it isn't worth sacrificing DS for (plus other skills) ontop of being a rpp higher

[Heade]

Yeah, the "system" they used to decide the value of ESGs was whether or not they had any combat skills in them. It was discussed in another thread.

If they did include one or more combat skills, they made them 2 karma. I'm not a fan, personally. I'd like to see all non-magic ESGs be 1 karma. Enough to where you can't spam ESG characters, but not so much that ESGs aren't attractive.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

It does seem there is something a bit off about the cost of ext. subs. I admit I have only tried one of the new class/subclass combos IG, but I'm finding it more frustrating than before picking a subclass that mixes well with the new classes. Seems like the majority of skills overlap. I've managed to find some very good combinations, but it's rare. One point of the new classes (according to staff) was to make the classes more focused in what they can do, but it seems like some of them are just all over the place when it comes to skills.

EDIT: nevermind. I take it all back. After reviewing the subguilds and extended subguilds (subclasses and extended subclasses I mean) There is more versatility than I thought. I think I 'm going to make a table of the classes and then write down each subclass that would work well with it