Release Note discussion!

[Bebop]

It looks like the game was just patched.  Is it down or WIP?  I currently lost link and can not log on.

[Nao]

There's some ginormous lag, it basically crashed.

[nessalin]

Didn't crash, wasn't lag.

Went into an infinite loop.

Bug fixed and rebooted.  Since it was stuck in a loop it wasn't operating without user input.  In other words no one died.

[Bebop]

Didn't crash, wasn't lag.

Went into an infinite loop.

Bug fixed and rebooted.  Since it was stuck in a loop it wasn't operating without user input.  In other words no one died.

I think something may have just happened again.

[nessalin]

Same issue.  Forgot to compile, last time.  Herp derp.

[Brokkr]

When did they deny that? It's patently obvious that's part and parcel with the changes.

Riposte is the only stance we have, or have planned, for the time being.

-Brokr in ATS

Cherry picking my response aside, this would only make sense if you only viewed stances as the only thing we could do to make combat more 'tactical'.  Pretty sure we could find other ways to introduce additional combat tactics if it made sense to do so.

[Erythil]

What is the downside of riposte stance?

Which classes get it?

[cshoov]

What is the downside of riposte stance?

Drawbacks, if any, can be discovered as one uses the skill.

whomp

[AdamBlue]

Dude, the new classes are gonna be fucking sick.

[Riev]

I'm very disappointed about the Advanced Weapons rework.

[cshoov]

I'm very disappointed about the Advanced Weapons rework.

Alright, I'll bite: Why?

[Delirium]

This whole "staff never adds anything but only takes away" perspective kind of blatantly ignores a lot of things that have been added or expanded. I realize it's easy to focus on the negative, I've done it in the past as well, but for goodness' sakes, you can be disappointed about something without crying doom and gloom and entropy.

[Riev]

I'm very disappointed about the Advanced Weapons rework.

Alright, I'll bite: Why?

I have gotten to Advanced Weapons on a couple PCs, and attempted to utilize them before. However the time involved, and the trickery one has to engage in just to attain them is very much a lengthy goalpost. In addition to the amount of work you then have to put in for them to be more worthwhile than the base weapon skill you had to master just to get it. So why WOULD you use Polearms if you had to spend 30days GETTING Polearms, and then its more worthwhile for you to use Axes because THEY are at master?

But I liked them. I tried to use them. Unfortunately, I kept dying, or storing once I got them. I once engaged in terribly twinky tactics to get Knife Weapons, only to have Nyr almost blacklist me for it, and only because I asked Salarr for custom-crafted knife weapons (which is not easy to say... you need a knife edge... but not a 'normal knife')

I'm just sad that its being shifted to Gladiator-only, and frustrated that the reasoning is because "nobody uses them". It'll be interesting to see these "stances" come about, but I don't necessarily agree with where "exotic weapons" have landed yet.

[Brokkr]

That isn't the only reasoning.

Branching where and like they do creates a set of issues, most prominent being they tend not to be used because by the time someone gets them, they are usually fairly skilled, which means improving them is harder.

To solve that problem folks need to get them earlier, which created different problems in figuring out how to deal with 8 weapon skills instead of 4 in allocating them across the classes.  Compounding that is that 4 of those weapon skills have only a fraction of the number of weapons created for them, which potentially means a huge creation project to get them anywhere near equal.  Add to that getting 4 weapon skills maxed isn't really a problem we tend to have, so its not like we are creating a situation where you relied on the 4 additional weapon skills to continue weapon skill improvement.

[Riev]

I was just going off what you both had said about how people don't "use" them even when they have them, which was kind of mis-information considering a lot of people don't even get to that level in the first place. Like saying "we're no longer letting people climb the mountain because most people only climb it once, plant a flag, and then never go back".

I will say, no salt intended, that it sounds like in your response that one major reason these were adjusted was because it was too much work to balance them with the idea of each weapon skill having a "purpose". Which I get. Its much easier to add 4 features than it is 8, and then balance them with 155 different combinations of whatever.

That is why I am disappointed. It feels like something that I had attempted to reach time and again has been removed, and the reason is because its "not worth it". Which makes the 3-4 PCs I'm had that DID get there, feel like they weren't worth it. It just kinda feels like a sock to the gut to say "That thing you keep trying isn't actually available anymore. Please play in Allanak with a slashing weapon instead."

[Armaddict]

This whole "staff never adds anything but only takes away" perspective kind of blatantly ignores a lot of things that have been added or expanded. I realize it's easy to focus on the negative, I've done it in the past as well, but for goodness' sakes, you can be disappointed about something without crying doom and gloom and entropy.

Honestly, I think we're impossibly hard to please at this point.  But I also think it's because things got wrested in certain directions so hard that even the -possibility- of things going back in ways some of us like has us taking deviations from that -particular- course harder than we should.

In other words, I agree, but I think it's also understandable on my (and others') part.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

I've been playing for a long time now, and I am excited to see these changes taking effect. When it comes to Arm, for me, what is fun about it is the immersible environment and the roleplay with others. The character I am playing and the skills they have will still allow me to delve deeply into a role, and it makes me happy that I will have more choices than 'ever' before. From what has been revealed so far, the new classes are going to have more versatility, not less, and that in itself is enough for me.

Thanks for all your efforts, staff! 

ME

[AdamBlue]

I don't think people even remember that we actually have fire arrows now.

[Delirium]

I don't think people even remember that we actually have fire arrows now.

Or that two-handed combat style used to be Jihaens only.

[Molten Heart]

.

[Molten Heart]

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[Akariel]

Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte

Backstab is stabbing, not piercing.

I wondered who it would be to point that out.  Yes, technically it is a subset of piercing, since the piercing weapons skill governs it.

Will weapons that are a subset of slashing be usable with riposte?

Currently it needs to be a slashing weapon. Slashing weapons do not have a subset like piercing does (stabbing). Branched weapons are different weapons and do not relate.

[seidhr]

I feel like that'd make more sense if the weapons were actually that weird and exotic. Some were, yes, but many were pretty ordinary. Hopefully this change will inspire some new objects that are weirder and more geared towards showmanship than a simple polearm--and maybe some of the plainer ones can be reclassed into basic weapon types.

Indeed.  It probably makes a lot of sense for some(most?  all?) of the knife weapons to just be ported to slashing or piercing weapons for example.

When I think exotic weapons that Zalanthan gladiators would use, my mind wanders to stuff like a weighted chain, flails, whips, etc.

There are probably like...  40, total, "advanced" weapons defined - with most of them not even being represented in the game as attainable short of some kind of special GMH order. 
* Razors are most common, but are (from a short audit I just did) universally terrible, stat-wise, for fighting.
* "Knife" weapons have never made any sense (how are "knife" weapons different from uh... "kniiiiiife" weapons) and it's just kind of silly.
* Tridents barely exist (there are only a handful even defined).
* Polearm weapons basically do not exist.
* Pike weapons - exist, but no distinguishing quality vs. anything else.

You'll still be able to use them - I mean, they're not going to shock you if you pick one up.  You might even be able to fight halfway decent with one if the item's been ported to a weapon type that makes sense, that PCs can actually become good at.  People crying doom and gloom about the special category for these, I dunno what to tell ya.    It feels like moping about some exclusivity being gone.  You'll have to find some other high water mark to strive for.  I can already see one (looking at the class trees).

[Cind]

I reeeaaally want to test-play a heavy mercantile role, which I assume they don't have many of since no one was playtesting an Artisan a while back, but I don't want to give up my current.

I don't want to decry too badly, but these weapons you are describing sound like they either need refurbishing or reclassifying or they're a part of the past. It would be kind of cool to see them around though, and razors, yeah, that sounds hard to kill something with.

But tridents sound so cool.

[Hauwke]

I dont really see much use for razors myself, at least beyond a slitting of the throat ala backstab, otherwise I dont see them being used much in combat, I have seen a few Razoring weapons that do make sense to be used as weapons though.

Pikes? Yeah I can definately see those being used, if not for standard but for killing large game like mekillot where getting too close would probably spell the end for anyone. Might be if someone wants to figure out a way to code giving them a damage boost the bigger the critter?