Reiloth's Weekly Poo: Commoner Taverns

[Reiloth]

Hello everyone and welcome to 'Reiloth Radio News Hour,' we've got Patuk at the sound-effects board ready to go, and let's just dive in to this week's episode.

Let's talk about Taverns in Allanak. Taverns in Allanak? Not again! Well no, i'm not talking about adding more taverns (that'd be a different thread). I'm not talking about removing taverns (that'd be a different thread). I wanted to talk about what the current taverns are, and how they mostly cater to Nobles and Templars rather than Commoners.

We currently have:

The Gaj and Gladiator - Poor People. All races allowed (except for Halflings and Mantis and Gith, sorry guys). Cheap drinks/food.

Elf Rooftop Lean-to - Poor People. Mostly Elves, humans wouldn't feel comfortable going there all the time. Cheap street food and no alcohol (IIRC).

Red's Retreat - Middle-Class to Upper-Class. Highborn frequent often. Elves, Half-Elves, not really allowed. Dwarves, sort of allowed if there for a reason. Half-Giants kind of allowed if affiliated or there for a reason. Mildly expensive food, one cheap drink, and a slew of more expensive drinks.

Oashi Winebar (Azure Dragon) - Upper-Crust. No Commoners allowed really unless there on business with a Noble. Incredibly expensive prices.

Arboretum - Upper-Crust. Commoners allowed, but must be of a certain 'strata' to gain access. Nobodies denied. Separate room for High-Born only.

In the Labyrinth, we have two bars that are 'Clan Run' in a sense. One by the Guild, and one by the Jaxa Pah. Both piss poor, but you don't go there to just 'hang out' for the most part. Elf bar is a slight exception to this, but it depends on who's playing (and when the Haruch Kemad were active, it was the same as with the Guild, the bar you hung out at for neutral times was the Screaming Mantis).



Now, looking at this list, there's only one place where Commoners can comfortably hang out, that being the Gaj and Gladiator. Red's Retreat becomes nuanced and tricky, where you are more likely to run into Nobles and Templars. Just as well, Commoners who are working for Noble Houses (with some exceptions) avoid the Gaj as it's 'lower brow', and usually at the recommendation of their employer.

Meanwhile, there are more options for High-Born as far as bars go, and there are only a handful of those people at any given time (5-8 or so).

There are three bars that would presumably be the same crowd as the Gaj, however they have restrictions, and are also in the Labyrinth.

By means of comparison, I look at Tuluk, which I think had more flavorful bars. Each had it's sort of 'scene'. Kuraci and Byn mostly hung out at the Tooth, while grebbers/hunters/crafters and some middle class hung out at the Vestric, or the Firestorm when it was around. The Sanctuary was da spot for Noble/Templar interactions, but also for middle-class bards and hob-nobbers to rub elbows. My Tuluk might be showing, but it felt more nuanced and real than the bar scene in Allanak. It felt like there were X amount of bars, and you might see anyone/everyone in any one of them. They were also mostly 'used', with the exception of the Partisan's Punch. You might see people hanging at the Tooth, or the Sanctuary, or the Vestric at any given time.

So while i'm not recommending exactly 'removal' or 'addition' of taverns, I wanted to open up the call lines. Do you think there aren't enough options for Commoner Taverns/Bars in Allanak? Are there too many High-Born centric options? Do you find the current choices limiting? Do you think everything is just fine, between the Gaj and Red's Retreat? Do you think there are too many restrictions in taverns, considering the stricter social roles of Noble/Templar in Allanak compared to Tuluk?

Hi Caller #1, you're on the air.

[Orin]

Isn't the Silver Ginka considered a bar of sorts?

[Reiloth]

Isn't the Silver Ginka considered a bar of sorts?

It's a gathering spot but they serve tea. That ain't a bar in my book. I left that and poets circle off by comparison.

Reason: While it is a 'gathering spot', you don't see people throwing parties there, or going there 9/10, because there isn't booze or food that's affordable.

[Jingo]

Just an observation.

Isn't it ironic that a society with strict caste roles had a less stratified bar scene?

[Reiloth]

Just an observation.

Isn't it ironic that a society with strict caste roles had a less stratified bar scene?

It is sort of ironic, heh. But I think it allowed for enough nuance that it wasn't as black and white as Allanak's. You didn't see people kicking other people out for being X -- You saw them looking down on them, and debasing them publicly, putting the onus on X to either stay and bear the heckling, or leave and go to a place that tolerates them more.

It's just unfortunate (IMHO) that we've attempted to push more people together in Allanak, but it's actually just segregated the population more, due to the strict binary social restrictions in place.

[nauta]

I could be wrong, but I think Red's Retreat won't kick anyone out -- the restrictions against rinthis, breeds, etc. are player based and not documentation or code based (as far as I know -- maybe there's some documentation backing it up out there I haven't been privy to).

The one big thing I liked about Tuluk's bar scene was your ability to pop out of the on bar, look east, and see if there were PCs in the other bar.

[Riev]

It was nice, but I always felt it was a Starbucks across the street from a Dunkin Donuts. And we all know how America runs.

Reds is a nice middle ground to meet potential employers, but sitting there idling or solo emoting when the Gaj has 12 people in it feels ... bad.

[Cind]

GMH leaders hang out at the Gaj now, which is weird but no one says anything about it (as far as I know) because its necessary since they don't have hunters anymore (which I felt was a good idea, but some of the neutral and negative effects of that are becoming apparent.)

[Miradus]

I don't see any other way to do the tavern thing and preserve the social strata integral to the game world.

[Lizzie]

The Gaj and Gladiator - Poor People. All races allowed (except for Halflings and Mantis and Gith, sorry guys). Cheap drinks/food.

Not "poor" people. Commoners, traders from elsewhere, tribals, visitors of non-noble caste. This is a place that discourages - but allows - wealthy people and/or anyone wearing silks or anything valueable that one wouldn't want soaked with ale/puke/piss when they sit down on the barstool.

Elf Rooftop Lean-to - Poor People. Mostly Elves, humans wouldn't feel comfortable going there all the time. Cheap street food and no alcohol (IIRC).

I didn't even know this existed til just now. Either I missed the post from staff/on the tavern board, or it was one of those find out ic things.

Red's Retreat - Middle-Class to Upper-Class. Highborn frequent often. Elves, Half-Elves, not really allowed. Dwarves, sort of allowed if there for a reason. Half-Giants kind of allowed if affiliated or there for a reason. Mildly expensive food, one cheap drink, and a slew of more expensive drinks.

Mm, no. Red's Retreat was named after Samos the Red, who was considered "the commoners' templar" to no small extent. He typically had his Arm recruits there, some on duty and some on a day off to drink. See the infamous Kalan Fruit log for an example. The fact that this place has become more of a nobility/silk-wearing bar is strictly a player-created trend, but there is absolutely nothing preventing the gemmed, half-elves, dwarves, Arm recruits, Bynners as long as they're not dripping blood or feces all over the stools, independents, and tribals. The brandy upstairs on the second floor? That's Tan Muark goods. The food downstairs that Dorilys sells? Kuraci. This place was -intended- to be used by commoners. That's also why it's smack dab in the middle of the Commoner's Quarter.

Who is actually tolerated there from one moment to the next depends exclusively on whichever PC who has more influence than whoever else is there. If an Oash noble is the only noble PC in the bar, and he invites the gemmed to a cask of wine for a mass-interview, then the gemmed are allowed in, period. If a Fale noble tells everyone in the Gaj that drinks are on Fale, but only if they join her in a game of kruth in Red's, then whoever was in the Gaj, is now allowed in Red's, period.

UNLESS a Borsail shows up and orders the half-elf out. Could be interesting if a Borsail and Oash conflict over the gaggle of gemmed at the table though.

Generally speaking, Dorilys (the bartender) tolerates most people, and is accepting of them particularly when they actually buy something.

Oashi Winebar (Azure Dragon) - Upper-Crust. No Commoners allowed really unless there on business with a Noble. Incredibly expensive prices.

I've never heard this, and in fact I've never seen any exclusive group of people ever sit down at the bar there, whether buying something or not. I haven't ever had any problem going in there with an unaffiliated commoner character without having a meeting in there. It's used more as a wine SHOP than a wine BAR.

Arboretum - Upper-Crust. Commoners allowed, but must be of a certain 'strata' to gain access. Nobodies denied. Separate room for High-Born only.

This has coded limitations. Even my bastard noble wasn't allowed in without being escorted in by a noble. So no - it's not "Commoners allowed." It's "nobles may bring their pets in if they absolutely insist on it, but they must be well-heeled and may not roam around without their leash."

In the Labyrinth, we have two bars that are 'Clan Run' in a sense. One by the Guild, and one by the Jaxa Pah. Both piss poor, but you don't go there to just 'hang out' for the most part. Elf bar is a slight exception to this, but it depends on who's playing (and when the Haruch Kemad were active, it was the same as with the Guild, the bar you hung out at for neutral times was the Screaming Mantis).

The only reason people in the rinth aren't hanging out in either place, is because they have chosen not to hang out in either place. I've played characters who've hung out in one or the other within the past few years. There's nothing preventing people who are based in the rinth (or visiting) from hanging out in either.

I think all of your examples are results of people "being the change." They wanted to change how things were, and they changed. You can always change it again if you really want to.

[Dar]

The reason why Reds became less tolerant of the low of the lows (rinthi, elves, gemmed, etc) is due to the time when Trader's Inn was burnt down and there was no other place for nobles to hang. So they hung at the Reds with all that this entails. Now they have Arboretum to hang out at. So Reds can be now a little bit less picky at who hangs out there. If a Noble puts up a fuss about it, they will of course be in the right. Unless some other noble on the scene just says, "Why dont you go to Arboretum", in which case it becomes a little iffy.


I remember I was playing this Noble that was slighted by some commoner 1st character noob, who then walked off. Not a fault of her own, she clearly didnt know the theme, but doesnt matter. I recall this cool scene when my noble began inspecting the bar. Their gaze first fell onto some aide, then gmh employee, then some bynner, then finally on an elf. My noble's bodyguard beat the elf up. I bet a lot of people that night were glad there was an elf nearby.

Also Railoth. Eat more Fiber. 

[Zenith]

I am fine with the taverns we have. But for the love of all that is holy, can we move the Red's to a more central location? Like the bend in Merchant's Road near the bazaar? It takes an insanely long time to walk there from the Merchant Quarter or Noble Quarter.

[Refugee]

I like it the way it is. 

I had hopes the Arboretum would be more popular with the richer commoners but I don't want to spend my play time idling there alone waiting for someone to walk in who probably won't, and others don't seem to want to either.  I tried for a long time.  It's sort of a good place if you want to be out and accessible but mainly by appointment, as most of the time you won't be bothered by random folks wandering in.

I think elves and breeds and gemmers should stay out of the Red's but throwing them out is good fun too.  Decent people shouldn't have to put up with the filth.    I've never seen dwarves or half-giants picked on there if they are clean.

[Reiloth]

The Gaj and Gladiator - Poor People. All races allowed (except for Halflings and Mantis and Gith, sorry guys). Cheap drinks/food.

Not "poor" people. Commoners, traders from elsewhere, tribals, visitors of non-noble caste. This is a place that discourages - but allows - wealthy people and/or anyone wearing silks or anything valueable that one wouldn't want soaked with ale/puke/piss when they sit down on the barstool.

Elf Rooftop Lean-to - Poor People. Mostly Elves, humans wouldn't feel comfortable going there all the time. Cheap street food and no alcohol (IIRC).

I didn't even know this existed til just now. Either I missed the post from staff/on the tavern board, or it was one of those find out ic things.

Red's Retreat - Middle-Class to Upper-Class. Highborn frequent often. Elves, Half-Elves, not really allowed. Dwarves, sort of allowed if there for a reason. Half-Giants kind of allowed if affiliated or there for a reason. Mildly expensive food, one cheap drink, and a slew of more expensive drinks.

Mm, no. Red's Retreat was named after Samos the Red, who was considered "the commoners' templar" to no small extent. He typically had his Arm recruits there, some on duty and some on a day off to drink. See the infamous Kalan Fruit log for an example. The fact that this place has become more of a nobility/silk-wearing bar is strictly a player-created trend, but there is absolutely nothing preventing the gemmed, half-elves, dwarves, Arm recruits, Bynners as long as they're not dripping blood or feces all over the stools, independents, and tribals. The brandy upstairs on the second floor? That's Tan Muark goods. The food downstairs that Dorilys sells? Kuraci. This place was -intended- to be used by commoners. That's also why it's smack dab in the middle of the Commoner's Quarter.

Who is actually tolerated there from one moment to the next depends exclusively on whichever PC who has more influence than whoever else is there. If an Oash noble is the only noble PC in the bar, and he invites the gemmed to a cask of wine for a mass-interview, then the gemmed are allowed in, period. If a Fale noble tells everyone in the Gaj that drinks are on Fale, but only if they join her in a game of kruth in Red's, then whoever was in the Gaj, is now allowed in Red's, period.

UNLESS a Borsail shows up and orders the half-elf out. Could be interesting if a Borsail and Oash conflict over the gaggle of gemmed at the table though.

Generally speaking, Dorilys (the bartender) tolerates most people, and is accepting of them particularly when they actually buy something.

Oashi Winebar (Azure Dragon) - Upper-Crust. No Commoners allowed really unless there on business with a Noble. Incredibly expensive prices.

I've never heard this, and in fact I've never seen any exclusive group of people ever sit down at the bar there, whether buying something or not. I haven't ever had any problem going in there with an unaffiliated commoner character without having a meeting in there. It's used more as a wine SHOP than a wine BAR.

Arboretum - Upper-Crust. Commoners allowed, but must be of a certain 'strata' to gain access. Nobodies denied. Separate room for High-Born only.

This has coded limitations. Even my bastard noble wasn't allowed in without being escorted in by a noble. So no - it's not "Commoners allowed." It's "nobles may bring their pets in if they absolutely insist on it, but they must be well-heeled and may not roam around without their leash."

In the Labyrinth, we have two bars that are 'Clan Run' in a sense. One by the Guild, and one by the Jaxa Pah. Both piss poor, but you don't go there to just 'hang out' for the most part. Elf bar is a slight exception to this, but it depends on who's playing (and when the Haruch Kemad were active, it was the same as with the Guild, the bar you hung out at for neutral times was the Screaming Mantis).

The only reason people in the rinth aren't hanging out in either place, is because they have chosen not to hang out in either place. I've played characters who've hung out in one or the other within the past few years. There's nothing preventing people who are based in the rinth (or visiting) from hanging out in either.

I think all of your examples are results of people "being the change." They wanted to change how things were, and they changed. You can always change it again if you really want to.

There's a lot of confusing points in this post that I'll address with multiple typing fingers when I get home.

First, typed by thumb, the Arboretum is certainly not off limits to Commoners. A part of it is. But the main bar is not. You simply have to be affiliated to get in.

[Lizzie]

That must've changed in the past year then because as I said - my bastard noble - fully affiliated, born, raised, and lifesworn at chargen to the noble clan, was not able to get in without being escorted in.

[Reiloth]

That must've changed in the past year then because as I said - my bastard noble - fully affiliated, born, raised, and lifesworn at chargen to the noble clan, was not able to get in without being escorted in.

I think you're thinking of the old Arboretum.

[Sedora]

GMH leaders hang out at the Gaj now, which is weird but no one says anything about it (as far as I know) because its necessary since they don't have hunters anymore (which I felt was a good idea, but some of the neutral and negative effects of that are becoming apparent.)

They can make their employees do that, though. The more likely situation is that they get tired of sitting in the Red's alone emoting at walls when the who command says 20 people are online and you can depend on at least a quarter of them being in the Gaj come dusk. The 'supposed to do' and the 'gonna do' get turned upside down in these situations. Even on my PC I won't do it, and they're socially acceptable in Red's. There's just rarely anybody there when I play, so I go where I'm going to get interaction.

I do sorta wish there was somewhere for a middle ground, though. The Gaj seems like the seedy place you see the real scruffers at, but with the volume of 'highborn' in the Red's, it doesn't feel like there's a not-scruffer equivalent.

[Patuk]

GMH leaders hang out at the Gaj now, which is weird but no one says anything about it (as far as I know) because its necessary since they don't have hunters anymore (which I felt was a good idea, but some of the neutral and negative effects of that are becoming apparent.)

They can make their employees do that, though. The more likely situation is that they get tired of sitting in the Red's alone emoting at walls when the who command says 20 people are online and you can depend on at least a quarter of them being in the Gaj come dusk. The 'supposed to do' and the 'gonna do' get turned upside down in these situations. Even on my PC I won't do it, and they're socially acceptable in Red's. There's just rarely anybody there when I play, so I go where I'm going to get interaction.

I do sorta wish there was somewhere for a middle ground, though. The Gaj seems like the seedy place you see the real scruffers at, but with the volume of 'highborn' in the Red's, it doesn't feel like there's a not-scruffer equivalent.

The solution, in my highly un-humble opinion, is for the commons to not he so accommodating and safe for nobles, but every time something like this threatens to happen all involved and any bystanders just end up dead.

[Reiloth]

GMH leaders hang out at the Gaj now, which is weird but no one says anything about it (as far as I know) because its necessary since they don't have hunters anymore (which I felt was a good idea, but some of the neutral and negative effects of that are becoming apparent.)

They can make their employees do that, though. The more likely situation is that they get tired of sitting in the Red's alone emoting at walls when the who command says 20 people are online and you can depend on at least a quarter of them being in the Gaj come dusk. The 'supposed to do' and the 'gonna do' get turned upside down in these situations. Even on my PC I won't do it, and they're socially acceptable in Red's. There's just rarely anybody there when I play, so I go where I'm going to get interaction.

I do sorta wish there was somewhere for a middle ground, though. The Gaj seems like the seedy place you see the real scruffers at, but with the volume of 'highborn' in the Red's, it doesn't feel like there's a not-scruffer equivalent.

Well put. Sometimes Commoners who aren't scruffers want to hang out in a bar where they don't risk running into a Noble or Templar every five minutes.

[Refugee]

I think most MUDers want people to play with, and we probably have enough rules separating PCs right now.  I have lots more fun games to play solo.

[Reiloth]

I think most MUDers want people to play with, and we probably have enough rules separating PCs right now.  I have lots more fun games to play solo.

Hmm. I'm not talking about splitting up PCs more, but it'd be nice if Red's Retreat (now that the Arboretum is open) isn't really the #1 hangout for Nobles and Templars, too. In Tuluk that was fine, because there were different societal expectations involved. But especially with a top-heavy amount of Nobles and Templars (seeing as Tuluk is closed, so all of those positions are going to be condensed into Allanak), it can make 'going out to the bar' an ordeal simply because there isn't a place for you to go and get a drink and relax.

Those to me are 'rules separating PCs' more than anything.

[Refugee]

I understand your point, Reiloth, and it's a valid one.  I like the nobles being in the Red's because when they are there, there are often more commoners there to play with as well, as they tend to gather around those roles.  I guess we will have to disagree on this one!

[ghanima]

I think the current arrangement is fine and I don't think anything needs to change, neither the quality of the taverns nor their locations. Nobles can relieve their NPCs in the tavern quit safe rooms last I checked, so the long walk to their estates and back isn't something they have to do every time they play (if they don't want). It even makes sense for noble estates to be situated far away from the local establishments anyway. I remember playing an aide a super duper long time ago and this one Fale lord always said "Let's go downtown" when he was leaving his estate for the taverns. I don't know if the term "downtown" is thematically suitable but at the same time it did help lend the image for me that taverns (and the commoners in them) were in a distinctly different area of the city. In that vein, being located far away made sense.

Red's has always been considered "slumming it" for the highborn types. Which isn't to say a noble can't do such a thing but the reality is they are somewhat out of place. Even when Trader's Inn was gone and before the Arboretum got its expansive revamp, the Arboretum did still exist and was there for highborn to utilize. I think what makes it unpopular for players are the closed doors. We don't go to taverns when we want privacy, no matter what kind of character we're playing. Back in the days of Trader's Inn you had a bouncer to block elves from entering but you could still see in and out of the tavern. As it is now I would probably hate going to the Arboretum unless some specific event was happening there. I think I would just feel too removed from everyone else.

Elves and mages can go into Red's all they want as far as I'm aware. But because it is popular for (PC) nobles to socialize there, they can easily be kicked out by an overzealous (but slumming!) noble. I suppose they could just disappear into one of the other rooms of Red's but that removes them from the action, which is the same problem as mentioned above with the Arboretum. However despite all of this I think for playability reasons a line has to be drawn somewhere and that line already exists. The Arboretum is great for player run RPTs, Red's suits a combination of highborn and most lowborn, and the Gaj is for everyone (else). Though as an alternative, there's nothing stopping a few aspiring players from popularizing the Silver Ginka just to shift the dynamics of things for a change.

The solution, in my highly un-humble opinion, is for the commons to not he so accommodating and safe for nobles, but every time something like this threatens to happen all involved and any bystanders just end up dead.

Over the years there have been quite a few thefts, assaults, and deaths inside Red's. And all over the commons now that I think about it. Not just popular commoners but highborn types too. I don't know how permissible it would be to name names but I can guarantee Red's alone is definitely not the safest place in the world.

[Akaramu]

I also don't see the need for change, but I called to let you know I'm enjoying these weekly discussions. Please keep them up!

[Renenutet]

We had some issues with the door to the Arboretum. It has been adjusted.

I was hoping the space would be more popular.


Despite my bias, you guys should play where you are happy.

Go be happy at The Arboretum bar. I made it good.