In-game Titles: Questions

[BadSkeelz]

Seems like something you should file a player complaint over. And I agree with BadSkeelz, it seems like a problem in play/perception between racial docs and just 'docs in general'. The honorific in that scenario wouldn't bother me nearly at all, it would be the treatment.

I kind of wonder if someone did, and that's how we have this thread.

If it was a one off, it probably was (should have?) been dealt with via Requests. A general reminder suggests it (whatever "it" is) was more widespread.

It's still a case of attacking the symptom without treating the disease.

Anachronistic? Seriously? Let's see. Stockings. Spike-heeled sexy thigh-high boots. "Bodice-Suits." Chicken McNuggets, poorly disguised as raptor meat. Leather mini-skirts. S&M-style "toy" whips. Beaded satin evening gowns.

We've put up with these - and many of them are relatively new additions to the game. And there's a problem with saying "Hey mister, someone just stole your pack" ??

+1

+2

[Molten Heart]

Is this just for Allanak, or is this everywhere in Zalanthas?

[Malifaxis]

How is this even a fucking problem? How is this even a discussion?

Staff said don't do it, so don't fucking do it. Leave the freaking out about incredibly minor shit to me, you're all a bunch of amateurs.

[Jingo]

I've used miss and mister on several of my more upstanding characters. But I'm not terribly bothered by the change.

[Large Hero]

Anachronistic? Seriously? Let's see. Stockings. Spike-heeled sexy thigh-high boots. "Bodice-Suits." Chicken McNuggets, poorly disguised as raptor meat. Leather mini-skirts. S&M-style "toy" whips. Beaded satin evening gowns.

We've put up with these - and many of them are relatively new additions to the game. And there's a problem with saying "Hey mister, someone just stole your pack" ??

"You shouldn't change X because Y, Z and Q are also problems" is a poor argument against changing X.

Before someone says that they don't think X should have been changed (in this case the mister/miss stuff), that isn't germane to the argument I quoted.

With that, I'm off to not post on or read the GDB anymore for a while. I think I'll play Armageddon instead.

[Large Hero]

Leave the freaking out about incredibly minor shit to me, you're all a bunch of amateurs.

This cheered me up. Haha. Thanks, Malifaxis.

[boog]

Leave the freaking out about incredibly minor shit to me, you're all a bunch of amateurs.

This cheered me up. Haha. Thanks, Malifaxis.

Me too. I almost sent a PM but then I saw I was at my limit for the hour. Dangit.

[Harmless]

just chiming in to say I think for the last 7 or so years I've played I have never heard routine use of mister or miss before a name, and that I have been told many times by other players not to use such titles EXCEPT for Sir and the other exceptions above in military groups.

I.e., the staff announcement didn't surprise me at all, just confirmed a convention I've long been following.

As for some of the specifics, well, there's gonna be wiggle room and slight exceptions. I don't think the announcement was meant as a big deal, I think some peeps are turning this into one or trying to but they are taking too close a look at the original intent of the announcement.

[Majikal]

I've used the words on a couple of my concepts, usually as a term of endearment and respect to a fellow commoner when nobody of importance was around. The more I think about it, the more the words don't belong in the game. I won't use them in game on future concepts.

Whew, that was hard...

[Miradus]

If you think belittling people who raised concerns about a topic on the game's DISCUSSION forum is useful then that's a problem.

Staff made an announcement. Some players raised objections and made points of varying degrees of validity.

Dogpiling on that you agree with the authority is just sycophantic. If it doesn't bother you then fine.

[WarriorPoet]

How this is an issue either way baffles me. Who cares? Miss Soanso versus Junior Bone Merchant, 3rd rank, Amos.

I find nitpicky rules far more jarring than saying 'Hello Miss Kadius' or whatever else.

[Gravity]

How is this even a fucking problem? How is this even a discussion?

Staff said don't do it, so don't fucking do it. Leave the freaking out about incredibly minor shit to me, you're all a bunch of amateurs.

This was my precise thought reading the thread.

The way in which some players approached the discussion is what was the issue - no one is debating whether players should have their say on the topic. Wouldn't hurt for some people to be polite in their approach to feedback every now and then

[Fathi]

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on the new helpfile or the change itself, but I guess I have to voice something about the method.

Were I one of the players involved, I'd feel pretty picked on by that post. I can imagine the players involved don't feel great. That kind of sucks, especially if they weren't asked privately to knock it off.

It's important to remember that other people can't see our intentions, so even though it was a well-meaning reminder I can easily see why some people might be a little upset by or feel chastised by the post. Especially since people have been saying crap like Mister/Miss/etc for years and nobody cared.

When you get right down to it, Armageddon's playerbase is pretty small, and a lot of us have been playing for quite a while. If someone's been playing for years and nobody batted a lash when they dropped an occasional 'Mister,' then suddenly they feel they're the subject of what's essentially a staff call-out post, then yeah, I can see why feathers would be ruffled. Especially since it's something that identifies certain characters, in a way.

It's pretty hard to tell someone "look, I just posted on the GDB a thing that essentially identifies your character, calls them out on poor RP, and didn't even privately suggest you do otherwise" and then also say "but don't take it personally."

Just my two cents. Remember there's an actual person behind everybody ingame, and it's pretty easy for people to feel singled-out even when that was not the intention.

[Bahliker]

 

How is this even a fucking problem? How is this even a discussion?

Staff said don't do it, so don't fucking do it. Leave the freaking out about incredibly minor shit to me, you're all a bunch of amateurs.

Blaze, I will do 2 things when the game administrators make a bad change to game docs:

1. I will abide by the docs. That's how you play this game.
2. I will object and discuss until no one has anything left to say.

Especially in a community in which many of us flip-flop between staffer and player, in which some of the past and current administration can't combine enough of their years of play to equal that of many current players, it's important to make our opinions heard. Sorry, I don't subscribe to this "it's the staff's sandbox" point of view. Factually true but the mentality is unhealthy for a small mud.

That's how it's even a discussion.

[Patuk]

Um.. What.

I mean, I don't.. I don't even know how I'd play around this one, truthfully.

Suppose I start out as some poor nobody from Yaroch, having plowed fields for twenty years, now in Allanak. I have no connections, no job, I'm dirty as fuck, hungry, emaciated, thirsty, and I'm currently talking to someone who runs a succesful trade operation, commands two dozen employees, drinks wine everyday and weighs twice as much as I do... But I don't call them 'sir' or 'miss' because some fancy people I've never even seen look down on me?

I'm not sure I can do that. Not out of some moral objection or anything, just immersion-wise, I don't see myself remembering this. I'm going to be as respectful as I can manage to that person. Person holds me up in the sands, I don't have a coin to spare to them.. But I'm not going to show respect?

Look, I'm sorry, but I can't. I know in advance this is something I can't adhere to, just because of how foreign it all sounds. I can try, and I'll do my best, but I predict many a future slip on my behalf for this.

I'm not sure why this is worthy a staff announcement anyhow, but then this topic seems rage-y enough as it is.

[Delirium]

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on the new helpfile or the change itself, but I guess I have to voice something about the method.

Were I one of the players involved, I'd feel pretty picked on by that post. I can imagine the players involved don't feel great. That kind of sucks, especially if they weren't asked privately to knock it off.

It's important to remember that other people can't see our intentions, so even though it was a well-meaning reminder I can easily see why some people might be a little upset by or feel chastised by the post. Especially since people have been saying crap like Mister/Miss/etc for years and nobody cared.

When you get right down to it, Armageddon's playerbase is pretty small, and a lot of us have been playing for quite a while. If someone's been playing for years and nobody batted a lash when they dropped an occasional 'Mister,' then suddenly they feel they're the subject of what's essentially a staff call-out post, then yeah, I can see why feathers would be ruffled. Especially since it's something that identifies certain characters, in a way.

It's pretty hard to tell someone "look, I just posted on the GDB a thing that essentially identifies your character, calls them out on poor RP, and didn't even privately suggest you do otherwise" and then also say "but don't take it personally."

Just my two cents. Remember there's an actual person behind everybody ingame, and it's pretty easy for people to feel singled-out even when that was not the intention.

Yea... this.

[650Booger]

read dark sun.  what do dark sun characters call eachother?  there is our answer.

[Malken]

read dark sun.  what do dark sun characters call eachother?  there is our answer.

For anyone who doesn't feel like reading some crappy novels (that's what I heard anyway), could you give us the answer?

[manipura]

stuff

Yea... this.

Fathi's explanation is way better than my attempt, so I'll just agree.

[Feco]

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on the new helpfile or the change itself, but I guess I have to voice something about the method.

Were I one of the players involved, I'd feel pretty picked on by that post. I can imagine the players involved don't feel great. That kind of sucks, especially if they weren't asked privately to knock it off.

It's important to remember that other people can't see our intentions, so even though it was a well-meaning reminder I can easily see why some people might be a little upset by or feel chastised by the post. Especially since people have been saying crap like Mister/Miss/etc for years and nobody cared.

When you get right down to it, Armageddon's playerbase is pretty small, and a lot of us have been playing for quite a while. If someone's been playing for years and nobody batted a lash when they dropped an occasional 'Mister,' then suddenly they feel they're the subject of what's essentially a staff call-out post, then yeah, I can see why feathers would be ruffled. Especially since it's something that identifies certain characters, in a way.

It's pretty hard to tell someone "look, I just posted on the GDB a thing that essentially identifies your character, calls them out on poor RP, and didn't even privately suggest you do otherwise" and then also say "but don't take it personally."

Just my two cents. Remember there's an actual person behind everybody ingame, and it's pretty easy for people to feel singled-out even when that was not the intention.

Yea... this.

[Lizzie]

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on the new helpfile or the change itself, but I guess I have to voice something about the method.

Were I one of the players involved, I'd feel pretty picked on by that post. I can imagine the players involved don't feel great. That kind of sucks, especially if they weren't asked privately to knock it off.

It's important to remember that other people can't see our intentions, so even though it was a well-meaning reminder I can easily see why some people might be a little upset by or feel chastised by the post. Especially since people have been saying crap like Mister/Miss/etc for years and nobody cared.

When you get right down to it, Armageddon's playerbase is pretty small, and a lot of us have been playing for quite a while. If someone's been playing for years and nobody batted a lash when they dropped an occasional 'Mister,' then suddenly they feel they're the subject of what's essentially a staff call-out post, then yeah, I can see why feathers would be ruffled. Especially since it's something that identifies certain characters, in a way.

It's pretty hard to tell someone "look, I just posted on the GDB a thing that essentially identifies your character, calls them out on poor RP, and didn't even privately suggest you do otherwise" and then also say "but don't take it personally."

Just my two cents. Remember there's an actual person behind everybody ingame, and it's pretty easy for people to feel singled-out even when that was not the intention.

100% spot on Fathi, this is EXACTLY how I feel, as someone who has used these terms on and off for over a decade, with some of my characters, and no one has ever sent me an OOC note asking me to stop, or criticizing me for using it, or pointing out that there was anything wrong with it. I've never received a player complaint that I'm aware of regarding the use of these terms.

In addition - the bolded part - it wasn't a reminder. That's what got Reiloth upset. Cayuga specified that this was a reminder - and even the title of the announcement post specifies that it's a reminder. Reminder - implies that we knew about this previously, and we're being reminded of something that we already knew.

There hasn't ever been any official anything from anyone saying that there was ever anything wrong with using these terms (in particular - mister and miss). So it's not a reminder of anything.

[Dar]

I dont know. The honorifics can be used in other things then just ranking position. A young pup talking to an elder. A boyfriend taking the daughter out for the first time and dealing with her parents for the first time. A guest in somebody else's domain. A word that signifies respect, when the person's political position, nature, or even profession is simply an unknown.

Don't like sir/ma'am? Make up your own.

Which I guess what the staff said as far as "following cues of the playerbase". So sir/ma'am/miss have been forbidden.

Do we have a Fale/Kadii in game, or not? Go make some trends!

[Dar]

For the record though. I have never used the words sir/ma'am/miss due to the fact that I felt they were anachronisms. I never gave a shit about others using it, nor have I read not to use them from some code. Nobody ever told me to not do it. It just felt weird for me. I would never say the words, "It's my right!" as a commoner either. It's not Zalanthasy.

But I also played Castle Morrach at the time, where they used the words like ser/sera instead of sir/ma'am/miss. So I notice that distinction pretty well.

[Molten Heart]

There should be some kind of generic honorific to address commoners of statue and authority, even if nobles/templars get pissy or jealous. Nobles and templars only live in a small portion of the game world and I wonder if the rest of the world even cares who uses what kind of titles.

[Cayuga]

We posted a preference with regards to terms being used by several players. Our intention was to set a clear expectation with regards to a behavior that we, as staff, find jarring and inappropriate for the setting. We didn't anticipate that people's feelings would be hurt and we're apologetic for that. We only ask that you extend to us the same kindness that we give to you with this apology.

In the future, we'll consider more personalized corrections, but this was a widespread enough issue that we felt a general announcement was in order to address and perhaps curb the behavior appropriately.