Reactions to the Witch Subguilds

[Armaddict]

Right.  I guess by that I assumed you meant combat text through context.  My mistake.

[wizturbo]

It's just simple checks and balances. 

Whirans:

As much as I adored playing a full Whiran, I was the first to admit the guild was overpowered and could be abused in the wrong hands in serious ways.  The number of abuse cases were very low, but the few cases where it did occur caused a lot of damage.

If I were declared King of Armageddon and could change anything I wanted, I would have made some changes to the mechanics of how certain Whiran spells worked to significantly limit their ability to kill with magick, while retaining their exploration/elusive nature.  They were far too effective at killing, a Whiran was far more dangerous than a Krathi in 80% of the rooms in the game.

Drovians:

The problem with this class could've been solved very easily in my opinion, by balancing 'that one spell'.   It could've been illegal to use in Allanak under any circumstances.  Gemmed or Ungemmed, get caught using that spell and you die.  Alternatively, it could've been made more difficult or impossible to use in Allanak all together via some kind of magickal defenses of the city.  This would have limited the viability of using this as a tool for spying on interactions, while retaining it's utility in other aspects of the game.  A third alternative in my eyes would be removing that one spell all together, and making some improvements to some of their other spells to make them an alternative method of espionage.

[Akaramu]

What this smart guy said. I'd play the heck out of full Whirans even if they could no longer PK at all.

I'd also play the heck out of a Drovian who could no longer spy safely.

[lostinspace]

It's just simple checks and balances. 

Whirans:

As much as I adored playing a full Whiran, I was the first to admit the guild was overpowered and could be abused in the wrong hands in serious ways.  The number of abuse cases were very low, but the few cases where it did occur caused a lot of damage.

I thought the checks and balances for this was that Whirans cost 6 karma and were trusted to not do those things. Why am I (who never played a whiran, or killed another player while playing a magick subguild for that matter) now incapable of playing full Rukkian because of the actions of a few players.

[Feco]

I don't think staff has ever said this change was punishment.  I don't know if they ever called it rebalancing, either.  So... I don't know if you should think of it either way.

I've said it before, but I also would like to see the "removed from play elements" returned to play.  Mostly Nilazi.

[BadSkeelz]

They're not that gone.

[Feco]

Right, they still exist IC.  I just want to play them, and I want to encounter them as PCs.  I think they were very interesting parts of the game.

[BadSkeelz]

Heh heh heh...

[Feco]

stop plz ur scarin me

[lostinspace]

I don't think staff has ever said this change was punishment.  I don't know if they ever called it rebalancing, either.  So... I don't know if you should think of it either way.

I don't know why staff did it, but to the players who wanted to play full mages it was punishing. Ultimately with the information I know all I can do is express that I'm dissatisfied with the lack of full gicks in game. I can't change anything, or probably convince any of you to change your mind either way, I'm just voicing my opinion and hoping that someday I'll get to play a full gick again.

[wizturbo]

Right there with you.  I miss the full guilds too.

But I am open to changing the full guilds if there were aspects of them that encouraged their removal from the game.  If changing some spells around to make them be less of a potential problem is the key to that, then by all means!

Although I will say that in my opinion getting Nilaz, Drov and (maybe) Elkros back into the game in some form is a higher priority for me right now than getting the full guilds back.  I'd like both, but if I can only get one, gimme them subguild Nilazi or Drovian options.

[hopeandsorrow]

You can still go on hunting trips with people as a subguild magicker.

You can still explore as a subguild magicker.

You can still solo RP as a subguild magicker.

You can still annoy the hell out of people as a subguild magicker.

You can still fuck shit up as a subguild magicker.

You can still socialize as a subguild magicker.

The only real problem I see is that it is *exceptionally* difficult to justify picking any primary guild except ranger, if you're going to be rogue.  Even if you're gemmed, ranger seems like it would be far and above the best pick unless you plan on always going face.  Ranger is extremely versatile, but the "killer app" for a gemmed ranger is that you can QUIT OUT whenever/wherever you effing want to, regardless of whether you have active spells up or not.

(P.S. Please release Nilaz, Drov, and Elkros subguilds.)

True, I think my main point I was trying to get across is... over the course of a half dozen successful rangers... There's no more content for me.  I pretty much did a lot of it, not even on maxxed out rangers.  I'm not a PK heavy meta gamey type, though mostly through my sheer laziness when it comes to mundanes. 

All I had left was magick, and now a great portion of it was removed from play.   Forcing me to manifest as a salt elementalist.

And how I think content removal is just generally bad, the RPI genre isn't exactly a spring chicken.  It would seem to be in the best interests, to make as much available as possible to bring as many players/play styles in as possible.

I might not be a tavern sitter, but my mere participation and presence I'm adding to the game world.  It may not seem that way because I don't really try to get involved in all the plots, but just by having PC's walking around whether you know the inner workings of that character or not, does make the world seem more alive.

The removal of full gicks and some elements just kind of removed some of the content I was hoping to explore, use, and enjoy.  It's not a matter of running a Ruk touched ranger or whateves.  It's about missing spells... and even missed chances to try concepts because the staff decide to take things in another direction.

The last full mage I played with at least 20 times more fun than any mundane I ever played.  I'm comparing month's old rangers and shit too like a 3 day old Ruk.  I think mostly, because I was smart enough not to spoil all of it for myself and that it was just new to me.

EDIT: I just wanted to add, the 3 day old Ruk wasn't supper maxxed our or fully branched either.  By nature or existence created perhaps one of the most short lived incredibly adversarial characters I had.  I didn't even need to stir up shit, because my mere presence is a few situations created the shit.  It was nice to be able to also... have that relationship that didn't always end with some maxxed mundane just murderizing me at even the hint of a slight.  That little bit of power was enough to keep me alive... even enough to do damage to force my adversary to flee in some cases. 

It's been my experience that mundanes, unless literally backed by weeks of grinding, are incapable of carrying on such RP, because most people who even dare to be in any sense of the word Adversarial are usually maxxed our or near it, or have coded power like half-giants behind it.

I had a friend who no longer plays for that exact reason, because he got tired of grinding for months, just be able to stir up some shit.  Every time he tried to stir up even the slightest bit of shit with out first maxxing out the character... some half-giant or maxxed warrior just swoops in one hits him.  So his choices was grind in isolation before he could perform or just get murdered for daring to bring any excitement to the table.

It's one of those things, if you dare try to go for that type character even when it's desperately needed, you needed coded power.  No offense to any one, but it's rather well known how bad the player base is at handling that type of RP.   Unless you're able to rebuff attacks or got super stealth, the Pbase will completely over-react for hinting that you may not be cooperatively playing with the rest.

Magick seems to have at least, given the option out because you could be dangerous, lose that character once the plot ran it's course and not feel like you just wasted a few months on your life for what amounted to a few days or maybe a week's worth of plot.

[Synthesis]

I don't think powerful throw-away PCs should be encouraged, except those that are thoroughly vetted by Staff, or actually run by Staff for a specific purpose.

Too many dipshits over the years, the karma system is nowhere near perfect, and it only takes one jackass to make things a lot more annoying for everyone else (even if he happens to be having a grand old time).

I mean, on the one hand, you complain about feeling like not wasting months of your life training up a mundane...but you want to play a PC that can waste months of someone else's life who played a mundane.  Do you not see how that is blatantly hypocritical?  Do you think you're above "wasting time" now that you've "exhausted the content" or something?

[Cind]

Sometimes, House Oash just doesn't have any room in their mage circle for new hires. They're the only clan I know that regularly hits their clan cap. Having House Borsail or some such begin to hire witches (for example, to check mul and other slave babies to make sure they're mundane) openly in permanent positions would allow for more in-city witch v. witch conflict than that cheesy I'm-Oash-and-you're-not thing that occasionally gets thrown around that I've never had a reason to take seriously.

[BadSkeelz]

Witch to witch combat is unlikely. They're much more likely to  ally (house animosity be damned) for more optimal twinkage.

I mean, on the one hand, you complain about feeling like not wasting months of your life training up a mundane...but you want to play a PC that can waste months of someone else's life who played a mundane.  Do you not see how that is blatantly hypocritical?  Do you think you're above "wasting time" now that you've "exhausted the content" or something?

Fantasies of powertrips and codified exceptionalism have always driven the fascination with magic, across many works. Nothing says "snowflake that you have to acknowledge" like a powerful magic character among muggles.

If it wasn't about being powerful there would be no objections to the guild changes.

[Akaramu]

If it wasn't about being powerful there would be no objections to the guild changes.

No. Did you read what I posted? None of it was about being powerful.

[Bahliker]

Hearing that Armageddon was getting magicker subs was like being a kid that just received a puppy. Hearing that magicker main guilds were being removed was like being told that a sibling was given up for adoption in order to make room for my puppy. I was kind of like, "Yeah, forget kid sister, she sucked, I love my puppy," but ultimately it's a shitty trade.

Terrible analogy. I hate analogies but that one made me laugh in my head so I wanted to share.

My true feelings need no analogy to express. Content removal is a bad idea. Nobody is going to hear "beloved class options removed!" and get excited about trying this game out. Sure, on paper we gained about 120 new options, but we still lost dozens of others encompassing entire segments of game lore. Worse still, despite the stated reasons for the change, these "people first" characters no longer even have the option of becoming truly dedicated to their magick. Manifested at a young age, shunned from your friends and family and accepted only by this new culture of temple priests? Tough beans kid, you're a warrior first and there's grebbing that needs doin'.

Create subs for the closed elementalist guilds. Replace all the main guilds, including sorcerer (maybe it needs a different tree and/or branching condition). Content removal is a bad idea, fullstop.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Witch to witch combat is unlikely. They're much more likely to  ally (house animosity be damned) for more optimal twinkage.

I mean, on the one hand, you complain about feeling like not wasting months of your life training up a mundane...but you want to play a PC that can waste months of someone else's life who played a mundane.  Do you not see how that is blatantly hypocritical?  Do you think you're above "wasting time" now that you've "exhausted the content" or something?

Fantasies of powertrips and codified exceptionalism have always driven the fascination with magic, across many works. Nothing says "snowflake that you have to acknowledge" like a powerful magic character among muggles.

If it wasn't about being powerful there would be no objections to the guild changes.

That's a silly dismissive statement.

There is a lot to be said about experiencing the world in a new way as well.

If they removed Ranger and said they were splitting it into 3 sub guilds and warrior and assassin were being removed, would the statements of displeasure be about power? 

The way I'm reading this, it's not about, "Hey man! I want my twinky easy mode PC back!"

1. Gicks gameplay is more respectful of my time. 

2. Because of a disability I have no control over, gicks make my life a ton easier and I get more enjoyment out of the game when I am one because of that.

3. Please, Imms don't take content out of the game! We don't know if this is permanent and there are times that this game feels like it is shrinking, and we don't want that to happen!

I will grant you there are people who want that power.  And they should at times, because you never see Amos Dung-collector get nearly as many people interacting as that rogue gick robbing/killing people does.  Leadership roles do that, or can, but there is a limit to the number of positions (and not everybody can/wants to play that).  Saying that Akaramu shouldn't get that experience of being a big motivator of players if she wants to, because of OOC reasons is not a good way to treat your other players.

I think people have agreed they don't want the 'get a gick, they are better at doing stuff than their mundane counterparts' scenario back.  They just don't want the possibility that they won't ever have to face a nilazi PC again.  Or they want to experience all this game has to offer, and are upset/sad that they no longer can.  At least nowhere close to the same way.

Everyone plays video games different, and no one should tell you how to play a game to get your enjoyment out of it. Whether it's COD or Tetris or Armageddon MUD.  (Yes there are rules we all have to follow and Arm does have some differences than COD I know) But you are being presumptive of others actual motivations and basically calling them all liars and cheats for saying it was about anything else than "power". 

And if you really think that, man, I am sorry about whatever caused you to that bitter. I really wish you didn't feel that way and those experiences had been different.  But I've been bitter about this game before too and it sucks.  Sorry...

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't being a massive troll and are speaking from perfectly legitimate feelings that have come from bad experiences or something.

That being said, I love everybody here man.  You too.

Also, I think people will find that it won't be the same anymore, but in a lot of ways the options are still there, you just need a guild that fills those roles and yeah maybe a little more grinding to do.  The staff did take certain experiences away, but a whole lot of new ones have been made. 

But I'll still lament the absence of full gicks in the world.  But I am really interested in seeing what this might be and seeing if it's just as enjoyable now, but in a different way.

I wish could make things easier for Akaramu though, that's not their fault.

[Akaramu]

Also, I think people will find that it won't be the same anymore, but in a lot of ways the options are still there, you just need a guild that fills those roles and yeah maybe a little more grinding to do.  The staff did take certain experiences away, but a whole lot of new ones have been made. 

I can't be the only player who just doesn't find the mundane combat system fun and would rather keep enjoying what I used to enjoy, and not be forced to deal with melee combat.

[Miradus]

I can't be the only player who just doesn't find the mundane combat system fun and would rather keep enjoying what I used to enjoy, and not be forced to deal with melee combat.

I too, wish I had an "I Win" button to mash and instakill anything that got in the way.

I do find the combat system fun, however, and while I would like to see it get the full Akariel treatment of being more fleshed out with wounds and such, it's why I play the game.

If you're a social player only, you hardly need magic to do that. So it seems like you just want to insta-win any conflict, pve or otherwise. That would be fun for me for about a day and a half.

[Shoka Windrunner]

I can't be the only player who just doesn't find the mundane combat system fun and would rather keep enjoying what I used to enjoy, and not be forced to deal with melee combat.

I too, wish I had an "I Win" button to mash and instakill anything that got in the way.

I do find the combat system fun, however, and while I would like to see it get the full Akariel treatment of being more fleshed out with wounds and such, it's why I play the game.

If you're a social player only, you hardly need magic to do that. So it seems like you just want to insta-win any conflict, pve or otherwise. That would be fun for me for about a day and a half.

What this smart guy said. I'd play the heck out of full Whirans even if they could no longer PK at all.

I'd also play the heck out of a Drovian who could no longer spy safely.

I don't think you've read what she wrote.  Or you are ignoring it.

My longest lived character, was a Whiran.  Way back before there was even a Drov, Elkros or Nilaz guild.  I started with four spells.  Branched one, then branched another two from that.  Nothing else hardly got used.  Lived from 17 to age uhh...50ish?

None of those spells were combat related, they were 'oh shit, I don't want to die' related.

I'm with Akaramu.  A whiran who can't kill with Whira magick is fine.

I'm a little more nervous of a Whiran who can invis/sneak/hide/and fire poisoned arrows at me from three rooms away.  Well as least as worried as I would be of pissing off a full branched Whiran.  Or a warrior/who  has effectively 4 times their hitpoint because the can heal themselves.  Or a warrior with full access to deadly as shit poisons.  Or anyone who might pull out of their ass the demonic fires of hell and blow me into giblets.  Surprise.  Or a Ranger who could do it while sneaking/hiding. 

And those 'I Win' buttons you are so concerned with, didn't go away.  They are still there.  You just don't know if Amos Dung-collector has it and won't until it's probably to late.

Unless you have a trigger that makes you auto flee when someone starts gicking.

[Akaramu]

Nope, Miradus didn't read what I wrote. You got it though! Thanks, Shoka. 

[Riev]

Basically, the arguments in this thread are "I know the code, because I've played a long time, and full-guild magickers were too powerful because reasons" and "I don't know the code that well, but there were things about full-guild magickers I liked outside of mon fireball".

Full list magickers were pretty good. At magick. Less so at other things. Arm has NEVER BEEN ABOUT BALANCED CLASSES, and the whole point of being able to play a full war-mage krathi was that you've played long enough for staff to trust you with it. The karma system, unfortunately, requires that volunteer staff are almost ALWAYS watching these few high karma players and those of us towards the bottom get the shit-end of the stick.

I get it. I was there for Shattered, and saw how many resources she required. I personally am just disappointed that I FEEL like the reason this went into play, is that staff can't be monitoring everyone, so these things we've had around for 20 fucking years suddenly aren't 'okay' anymore.

And its all because a few people got killed and their assholes hurt.

[Akaramu]

Do staff really have to be watching all the time? I was under the impression that everything gets logged and can be looked up later if there was a concern or complaint.

[hopeandsorrow]

I don't think powerful throw-away PCs should be encouraged, except those that are thoroughly vetted by Staff, or actually run by Staff for a specific purpose.

Too many dipshits over the years, the karma system is nowhere near perfect, and it only takes one jackass to make things a lot more annoying for everyone else (even if he happens to be having a grand old time).

I mean, on the one hand, you complain about feeling like not wasting months of your life training up a mundane...but you want to play a PC that can waste months of someone else's life who played a mundane.  Do you not see how that is blatantly hypocritical?  Do you think you're above "wasting time" now that you've "exhausted the content" or something?

I guess, I don't few it as hypocritical because I don't aim to kill/grief, destroy people's effort.

I think you're assuming an adversarial relationship mean's I'm running about PK'ing folks.

Nah, see that's why I liked magick, because I was able to actually prevent it from happening to me.  I'd be a dick like... with an insult or I'd stake a good grebbing spot and try to run folks away... you know simple low level stuff.

The usual response before I discovered I Could be a walking stat generator with a Ruk was most players just lamely PK'ed me... like not even throwing an argument.

Like literally bro it go "Hey fucker, this muh sifting spot!" -me.

Kill hopeandsorrow - them.


This was a pretty much running theme till the Ruk.