Reactions to the Witch Subguilds

[bardlyone]

The idea that shutting a bunch of shit down that people like is helping doesn't seem to be the case, given the numbers at peak times aren't growing, if anything they tend to be the same or lower. I've said it for years and I'll keep saying it. If people like the game for something and you take it away, they're not going to like the game MORE.

@lauramars, there's a reason why I didn't post anything myself on it, but instead used a quote to point something out. I don't have kama anymore and likely never will again, but from the outside, that's what the opposing sides of the argument there looks like.

[BadSkeelz]

fuck dwarves, fuck magickers, fuck f-me's, fuck city elves and nerf everything I don't use

I feel like this is applicable to badskeelz and malken's responses' line of logic here.

You forgot "Fuck half-giants"

(I actually like f-mes and City Elves).

[bardlyone]

fuck dwarves, fuck magickers, fuck f-me's, fuck city elves and nerf everything I don't use

I feel like this is applicable to badskeelz and malken's responses' line of logic here.

You forgot "Fuck half-giants"

(I actually like f-mes and City Elves).

I didn't forget it, it wasn't part of the quote I was using.

[BadSkeelz]

Okay okay. NOFUN forgot.

[Miradus]

If there's a style of gameplay that someone enjoys, then it should be supported, or at least not removed.

The only exception would be if it specifically ruins the gameplay of others.

[Akaramu]

Time for a GDB cuddle puddle!

[Comfortably Dumb]

If there's a style of gameplay that someone enjoys, then it should be supported, or at least not removed.

The only exception would be if it specifically ruins the gameplay of others.

One caveat I'd like to add to this is that I'm all right with staff removing/altering certain aspects of gameplay that don't fit the game's themes. Though that's a bit nitpickier and tends toward the subjective, of course.

A great example would be the way the Tan Muark were revamped, both through IC events and then building a new OOC construct for the clan. The old Tan Muark certainly didn't "ruin" gameplay for others, but one tribe having innumerable riches and resources in a near-impenetrable fortress had some issues when it comes to some core themes of Armageddon: struggle against existing power structures, hardship, and scarcity.

I loved the Tan Muark as they were, but I love them way more now because I feel like as an entity they now fit in better with the game's overall conceit and themes.

Kind of a derail though, so I won't go down this rabbit hole too deeply, but my point was this: it's possible some of the changes made to certain guilds over the years were for thematic gameplay reasons rather than simply code-balance gameplay reasons. I hope that makes sense. I've only had one coffee today.

[BadSkeelz]

I thought we blew-up and force-stored all the Tan Maurk? PCs, anyway.

[Patuk]

I thought we blew-up and force-stored all the Tan Maurk? PCs, anyway.

No.

[Synthesis]

Once I got over the "starting spells suck ass" phase, I didn't feel particularly gimped with my subguild 'gicker.

If anything, I felt vastly more confident with the subguild 'gicker than I did with any other 'gicker I've ever played (with the exception of Rash...who was basically a subguild 'gicker before they existed).

[Harmless]

+1 to all tradeoffs suggested thus far that will give me my mainguild magickers back. Take away nil reach for them in particular would be fun fun fun.

[Riev]

Once I got over the "starting spells suck ass" phase, I didn't feel particularly gimped with my subguild 'gicker.

If anything, I felt vastly more confident with the subguild 'gicker than I did with any other 'gicker I've ever played (with the exception of Rash...who was basically a subguild 'gicker before they existed).

Was it because of the mundane primary that you had, that helped you feel confident in the magick skillset you chose?

I ask, because most of the arguments against full mages is their coded potential. Not on you, in particular, but if "feeling confident" in general means "I have more skills to survive and thrive", then I'm still not convinced on the argument that full mages are OP.

(however, I do still think no nil and no skillups from no-comp would be a great balance, and am frankly surprised still that no-comp training is a thing)

[Malken]

The latest posts assume that Staff made these changes because they felt that the full magicker classes were "OP", but we don't know why these changes were made.

Even if we all agree that magickers could come back only if and if and if, it still wouldn't change much. We just don't know why they were changed.

Maybe they were OP? Maybe it's just part of a future change? Maybe Staff prefers a less magick-oriented game? There's a lot of maybes.

[Feco]

Yeah, I don't think bargaining is the right approach.  I know it's one of the supposed stages of grief and all, but, come on.

[Akaramu]

I just feel like something that wasn't broken got fixed, which is usually not the best solution in my book.

I feel the same way about every Final Fantasy game after X. I know some people loved the new combat system in 12, but personally I just wanted FF X back...

[chrisdcoulombe]

Yeah, but that feel you get when <edited by Delirium>

Please don't reference ingame mechanics/spells/etc on the GDB as per the rules. Thanks. -D

[Miradus]

Dang it!

One of these days I'm going to beat Delirium to a post and learn something.

[chrisdcoulombe]

lol sorry

[Synthesis]

Once I got over the "starting spells suck ass" phase, I didn't feel particularly gimped with my subguild 'gicker.

If anything, I felt vastly more confident with the subguild 'gicker than I did with any other 'gicker I've ever played (with the exception of Rash...who was basically a subguild 'gicker before they existed).

Was it because of the mundane primary that you had, that helped you feel confident in the magick skillset you chose?

I ask, because most of the arguments against full mages is their coded potential. Not on you, in particular, but if "feeling confident" in general means "I have more skills to survive and thrive", then I'm still not convinced on the argument that full mages are OP.

(however, I do still think no nil and no skillups from no-comp would be a great balance, and am frankly surprised still that no-comp training is a thing)

In moderate-to-best-case scenario PvP, most full elementalists probably were better than most subguild elementalists.  However, it was my experience that killing just one thing usually drained your mana pool to the point where another serious encounter would be disastrous...i.e. they were glass cannons (general rule, with exceptions, obviously).  It also led to weird things like...you'd have to rip off a series of massive earthquakes just to kill a mouse, but then if you ran into another mouse, your ultra-powerful LORD OF RUUUUUUUK would have to flee like a little girl.

[hopeandsorrow]

I logged in a couple of times, recently trying to get back in the game.


Everytime I look at the magicker changes I get super pissed off and demotivated to play.

Like my account was from 2005, and one thing that always interested me in Arm was magick.  Its nature, the way it was feared, the way it was secretive.

Feels like I tried grinding to see the cool side of the game, and instead people who weren't even staff when I started to play got to rip it from those who never got a chance to play them.  Which quiet frankly is a big "fuck you pleb" whether that was the intention or not.

It wouldn't bother so much if this wasnt the last damn game in this dying genre, not like I got a place to take my ball and go play else where.

Don't take it personal, but the changes ruined a lot of the allure of playing for me, so I think it was a terrible idea, and hope new staff one day possibly get in a position to reverse or re-add real magickers back in.

[wizturbo]

Hope is not lost, don't be filled with sorrow.

I also wouldn't frame this as something that requires some new staff or leadership to have re-introduced to the game.  I know for a fact there are staffers that enjoy magick oriented plots in the game today, and I've seen several such plots go down within the last year.  Those staff are not tucked away in backwater clans either, they run some of the biggest ones.  I have faith that we could see some of these guilds re-introduced in the future, maybe as part of the main guild revamp even.

Additional, after months of lamenting about this subject, I've come to the conclusion that it's hard for us "pro-magicky" folks to have much credibility unless we've seriously played one of the extended subguilds and found them wanting.  It's hard to establish that credibility, even if we do play one, if we start with the attitude that they suck balls.  I'm trying to come up with a really good concept to give one of these a test drive and try to be objective about it...  I think anyone who seriously wants to try and help the cause should do the same.

This doesn't do much to help the missing elements part of the equation, I still miss Nilazi and Drovians (but maybe not one particular drovian spell).

[Shoka Windrunner]

Hope is not lost, don't be filled with sorrow.

I also wouldn't frame this as something that requires some new staff or leadership to have re-introduced to the game.  I know for a fact there are staffers that enjoy magick oriented plots in the game today, and I've seen several such plots go down within the last year.  Those staff are not tucked away in backwater clans either, they run some of the biggest ones.  I have faith that we could see some of these guilds re-introduced in the future, maybe as part of the main guild revamp even.

Additional, after months of lamenting about this subject, I've come to the conclusion that it's hard for us "pro-magicky" folks to have much credibility unless we've seriously played one of the extended subguilds and found them wanting.  It's hard to establish that credibility, even if we do play one, if we start with the attitude that they suck balls.  I'm trying to come up with a really good concept to give one of these a test drive and try to be objective about it...  I think anyone who seriously wants to try and help the cause should do the same.

This doesn't do much to help the missing elements part of the equation, I still miss Nilazi and Drovians (but maybe not one particular drovian spell).

I honestly like the new system in a way.  Though I agree and do lament that eventually, we will never again see a Drov, Elkrosian, Nilazi or Sorcerer out in the known.  Or for that matter a full blown anything.  But the fact that it makes magick users more interesting to play because you aren't just magick with a bit of stuff from a subguild, but is now the other way around...I don't know.  I actually feels good if that makes sense. 

Try it maybe.  It could be fun.

On a side note, is it possible to send in a Question using the Request Tool to get a little bit more info on what the different Touched subguilds do?

My take on them is maybe a few iconic spells, and boosts to other skills or skills you wouldn't necessarily have? 

Like does a Vivaduan get the skill Craft Basketweaving with the added bonus they can also do it underwater or something?  I just don't quite understand it. 

[Inks]

Magickers are more realistic now..I love the opportunities for rogues now. The changes are great. I would be fine with occaisional full magickers..very occaisional.

[hopeandsorrow]

Hope is not lost, don't be filled with...

I appreciate this post.  I want to try them, but ya know... like  I got zero knowledge on which one would work and could easily burn through special apps just trying to find something redeemable.

Just feels like they removed content and refeed it piece meal.

I'm so burned out before I even start on mundanes.  Unless have the updated how skills level yet?  Or will I be dedicating 6 hours a night for months just to see jman.

See like thats one my issues few times I played a ruk... 3 days played I was doing cool stuff, meeting cool people, weird shit was happening.

3 days on a mundane and I'm still fleeing from mean looking scrabs.

It's vast difference, one is way way more rewarding for my time the other is one where anything outside the purely social, I feel like I'm planning months ahead at a chance of fun.

Which I guess is less about magick changes and more about how I find the grinding... the oh god endless grinding of a mundane.  Damn it, I just demotivated myself again.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Hope is not lost, don't be filled with...

I appreciate this post.  I want to try them, but ya know... like  I got zero knowledge on which one would work and could easily burn through special apps just trying to find something redeemable.

Just feels like they removed content and refeed it piece meal.

I'm so burned out before I even start on mundanes.  Unless have the updated how skills level yet?  Or will I be dedicating 6 hours a night for months just to see jman.

See like thats one my issues few times I played a ruk... 3 days played I was doing cool stuff, meeting cool people, weird shit was happening.

3 days on a mundane and I'm still fleeing from mean looking scrabs.

It's vast difference, one is way way more rewarding for my time the other is one where anything outside the purely social, I feel like I'm planning months ahead at a chance of fun.

Which I guess is less about magick changes and more about how I find the grinding... the oh god endless grinding of a mundane.  Damn it, I just demotivated myself again.

I think you'll find most anything will work now if you try it.  Just give it a shot once. 

But I totally understand the "need a video game to respect my time thing" but...I am not sure there is a way to fix that well. 

After thinking about it, it'd be real hard to fix and keep a balance.  I don't know.