Reactions to the Witch Subguilds

[Miradus]

No such thing as wanting too much.

I like the game now. I like that it continues to evolve.

[Lizzie]

It is -not- a low-magic setting, for the millionth time. It is a low-fantasy setting. Low-fantasy can be high or low magick, or something in between. It has never been billed as low-magick, it's not in the docs, or in any of the ads on TMS or TMC, or in the main page of the game, or in any help file.

Low fantasy does not equal low-magick.

Armageddon is a pretty high-magick game. One city run by a sorcerer-king. Another run by a psionic king (which could be considered its own form of magick). An outpost named after yet another sorcerer (Luir), and a fabled city destroyed by magick (Steinal). Templars who wield sorcerous powers. An entire section of one city dedicated to the study of elemental magic. A noble house that hires mages, actually, and two more noble houses that hire mages, virtually. Not one, not two, but 6 different varieties of magick, each separated into four sub-guilds, with anyone being able to play at least a few of them, if they special app - and most people able to play at least a few without a special app.

A volcano that was magickally moved from one part of the game world to another.
Entire tribes that "specialize" in certain magicks.
A desert - that is a desert - because of magicks.
Houses that were formed because of magicks.
Houses that were destroyed because of magicks.

This is HIGH magicks, folks. It's just low-fantasy.

[Molten Heart]

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[Riev]

High fantasy tends to revolve more around your special snowflake character. You can become king of a city, the queen of the realm. The stories around the main characters allow for them to have basically unlimited upward mobility.

Low fantasy means you start as shit, and end as slightly less shit. You don't get to be king, who the fuck do you think you are? This isn't fantasy, this is LIFE, grebber. Maybe if you work hard you won't die in an alleyway surrounded by people who never loved you.

[Delirium]

High fantasy = Lord of the Rings, World of Warcraft

Low fantasy = Glen Cook's Black Company, Joe Abercrombie's First Law series

[Molten Heart]

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[BadSkeelz]

All of Lizzie's examples are "High Magick, Low Fantasy" but they're also on a level of magick use way above your average elementalist PC.

It's totally possible to have a High Magick, Low Fantasy world where you're not running in to a bunch of twinky Xmen "yur a wizard" archetypes every other day. One could argue that Elementalists, as presented in the Guilds and possibly Subguilds, actually cheapen the High Magick, Low Fantasy theme embodied by her examples.

Last Edit: It'd probably be useful to think of Magic(k) and Fantasy as two separate scales on an X-Y Graph. I wonder if one exists already somewhere. Just where Armageddon would place on such a graph would, I think, be very subjective.

[racurtne]

I like the witch subguilds. I have seen and played full elementalists. I'm okay with them being added back. I'm fine if they aren't.

I think having the option for both would be nice but it doesn't bother me much.

[Molten Heart]

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[BadSkeelz]

So really the discussion is if Zalanthas is a high or low magic(k) world. Considering the history of the game with The Dragon, Dragonthralls, the sorcerer kings, elementals, elemental gates, etc. I think it's realistic to say that Zalanthas is a high magick world where magick has been stigmatized and shunned to the point where people are sort of in denial about it. There are huge magickal powers out there (enough to move volcanos, etc), they just aren't being utilized, for some reason.

Saying the contemporary setting/gameworld of Zalanthas is High Magick is kind of like saying Los Angeles is a sparsely populated sagebrush desert. It was true once upon a time, it has ramifications continuing to the present day, but it has not carried forward unchanged and is not routinely and directly impacting day to day life. You don't meet a Dragonthrall walking down the road anymore. Contemporary Zalanthans, from the Sorcerer Kings on down, are maggots living in the corpse of an eviscerated High Magick world.

That's how I like to think of it, anyway.

We should probably have a different thread for discussing just what kind of "Magic" Zalanthas is, High vs Low. Would be useful to define those terms. If you define "High Magic" as a world where Magic use is routine and relatively unremarkable, World of Warcraft would by High Magic but the Lord of the Rings would not be. A Low Magic world is where magic is rare and remarkable in its use. The Lord of the Rings' plot is driven by very magical events, but it mostly involves a bunch of (relatively) normal fucks footslogging it through the mud and killing things with sharpened bits of steel.

Using the above, I would call the setting of Zalanthas "Low Magic" but actual gameplay medium-to-high, which I think is a shame.

[Inks]

I like the witch subguilds.

PCs do feel more realistic now, having to go through the everyday realistic danger of life as a witch rather than spamcast 5 days = You are a god.

I really like them in fact. The whole game feels more believable and less mmo now. Imms have worked really hard to evolve the game to be more player plot focused and this is a great step. Seriously, having mages that could essentially only ever be stopped by more powerful mages or assassination while in town was lame as fuck, and I have played plenty of maxed mages.

I have found witch rp often subpar, often out of necessity as casting before you get melee combat skill'd (charge, bash etc) was so important in a combat situation. anyone who says they like witches for the rp are probably referring to "ROFL POWER".

[Akaramu]

PCs do feel more realistic now, having to go through the everyday realistic danger of life as a witch rather than spamcast 5 days = You are a god.

None of my full guild elementalists were ever 'gods'. In fact, all of them died at, I think, under 20 days played. I don't think I ever branched a third tier spell on any of them. Maybe you haven't been living dangerously enough? If someone was a 'god' after spamcasting for 5 days played, I'd hope they got their karma docked because they must not have been roleplaying at all.

All of my long lived PCs were mundanes. They joined clans and enjoyed the easy life that wasn't accessible to my elementalists.

[Miradus]

My biggest problem with the magic, as implemented, is that I want to seep shadows, open dimensional gates, or raise an army of the undead.

Not fill a waterskin or rain down burnt meat from the sky.

If I can't do the other, I'd rather just some of the dang decent mundane skills to interact with the world.

[wizturbo]

Whether you view this as 'high' or 'low' magick is just semantics, the fact is magick is essential to Zalanthas.  Every major power in the game has magick, or serves at the pleasure of those who do.  Great pains are taken to prevent magick from spreading to others, both to eliminate the potential for rivals to develop and because of the potential of defiling magicks to destroy what little resources are left.  Like it or not, Zalanthas is a deeply magickal setting.  It isn't always in your face, just like the force isn't always in your face in the Star Wars universe...  but it's deeply embedded in the under pinnings of the game.

Just like Star Wars, some people might enjoy stories without Jedi or Sith, but to many the Jedi and the Sith are what make that universe exciting and interesting.  When full sorcerers were taken out of the game, the capacity for someone to become the Zalanthian equivalent of a Jedi Master or Sith Lord went with it.  Okay.  I can live with that.  I can see where having a PC Sith Lord running around is too difficult to manage.  But taking out all those elementalist main guilds is like removing all Jedi and Sith from the game and leaving only force sensitives without lightsabers running around in their place.  It goes too far.  The analogy isn't perfect, because half-sorcerers and Templars still exist, but it does approximate how I feel.

[Inks]

PCs do feel more realistic now, having to go through the everyday realistic danger of life as a witch rather than spamcast 5 days = You are a god.

None of my full guild elementalists were ever 'gods'. In fact, all of them died at, I think, under 20 days played. I don't think I ever branched a third tier spell on any of them. Maybe you haven't been living dangerously enough? If someone was a 'god' after spamcasting for 5 days played, I'd hope they got their karma docked because they must not have been roleplaying at all.

All of my long lived PCs were mundanes. They joined clans and enjoyed the easy life that wasn't accessible to my elementalists.

I am not talking about you specifically, nor anyone specifically. This statement is completely valid, as a witch you were incredibly powerful after 5 days played, 10 days played if you took it really easy, and mundanes of five times your days played couldn't stop you easily.

[Akaramu]

I am not talking about you specifically, nor anyone specifically.

You made a generalized statement that isn't accurate and may give newer players a wrong impression of what full elementalists were like. I only used my own example to show why it's not accurate.

I like wizturbo's Star Wars analogy. +1.

[GithMaster]

Whether you view this as 'high' or 'low' magick is just semantics, the fact is magick is essential to Zalanthas.  Every major power in the game has magick, or serves at the pleasure of those who do.  Great pains are taken to prevent magick from spreading to others, both to eliminate the potential for rivals to develop and because of the potential of defiling magicks to destroy what little resources are left.  Like it or not, Zalanthas is a deeply magickal setting.  It isn't always in your face, just like the force isn't always in your face in the Star Wars universe...  but it's deeply embedded in the under pinnings of the game.

Just like Star Wars, some people might enjoy stories without Jedi or Sith, but to many the Jedi and the Sith are what make that universe exciting and interesting.  When full sorcerers were taken out of the game, the capacity for someone to become the Zalanthian equivalent of a Jedi Master or Sith Lord went with it.  Okay.  I can live with that.  I can see where having a PC Sith Lord running around is too difficult to manage.  But taking all Jedi, and all Sith out of the game, and leaving only force sensitives without lightsabers goes too far.

Sticking with Star Wars analogy there might still be jedi and sith kinda like at the time of the new hope where there was two of each. Now I am wondering how many full mages are left.

[BadSkeelz]

I am not talking about you specifically, nor anyone specifically.

You made a generalized statement that isn't accurate and may give newer players a wrong impression of what full elementalists were like. I only used my own example to show why it's isn't accurate.

I like wizturbo's Star Wars analogy. +1.

#notallmagickers

I'd debate whether 'magic' is essential to Star Wars (And whether that's a good analogy). Yes, the main characters of the original trilogies are magic-users, but the bulk of the action is driven by mundane beings and mundane reasons. The real struggle is between Tyranny and Liberty, which just so happen to have backers who practice opposing schools of magic. Take the magic out and you still have a plot, just a slightly different one.

If Star Wars was a MUD Vader and Luke would probably be sponsored roles if not staff avatars. Mundanes would be the ones getting shit done 90% of the time.

I think the closest analogy to "Sith and Jedi" that Arm has/had were the Sorcerer Kings. The effective loss of one and his minions has had a major impact on the thrust of the gameworld's conflicts.

PC Sorcerers amounted to "The Clone Wars" villain-of-the-week at best.

Most PCs are the obese X-wing pilot who explodes before managing to even get shot.

[Inks]

I am not talking about you specifically, nor anyone specifically.

You made a generalized statement that isn't accurate and may give newer players a wrong impression of what full elementalists were like. I only used my own example to show why it's not accurate.

My statement was completely valid. Days played and coded power has nothing to do with how long your PCs lived.  Your statement is subjective whereas mine is objective. You were incredibly powerful in a very short time, and mundanes couldn't really deal with you until they were many times your time played, even then generally having to rely on the element of surprise.

New players are far better off now than they would have been. Unarguably. I once used an undead unstoppable ball to animate every NPC I could find in the grey forest. Over fifteen NPCS at any one time. My PC literally decided perhaps he was a god, after all.

This was 5 days played.

[Akaramu]

You were incredibly powerful in a very short time, and mundanes couldn't really deal with you until they were many times your time played, even then generally having to rely on the element of surprise.

The bolded part isn't accurate. If you twinked like crazy, I guess you could have been 'powerful' within something like 15 days played (definitely not 5). But so could an assassin who twinked like crazy. Or a half-giant / mul warrior.

Max sneak, hide and backstab + poisoned weapons are scarier than any elementalist.

[KankWhisperer]

I'm glad they're gone.

[Inks]

You were incredibly powerful in a very short time, and mundanes couldn't really deal with you until they were many times your time played, even then generally having to rely on the element of surprise.

The bolded part isn't accurate. If you twinked like crazy, I guess you could have been 'powerful' within something like 15 days played (definitely not 5). But so could an assassin who twinked like crazy. Or a half-giant / mul warrior.

This is the most false statement I have ever seen and everyone knows it. We should probably allow others to contribute than continue this flame war though.

[Akaramu]

What flame war? I thought we were discussing. 

But yeah, let's agree to disagree.

[BadSkeelz]

Mundane flames only, unless you have the appropriate subguild.

BTW can we set people on fire by wielding torches yet? Why not?

[bardlyone]

You were incredibly powerful in a very short time, and mundanes couldn't really deal with you until they were many times your time played, even then generally having to rely on the element of surprise.

The bolded part isn't accurate. If you twinked like crazy, I guess you could have been 'powerful' within something like 15 days played (definitely not 5). But so could an assassin who twinked like crazy. Or a half-giant / mul warrior.

Max sneak, hide and backstab + poisoned weapons are scarier than any elementalist.

I think he's confusing magic with d-elves.

I'm w/you on this Akaramu. While it was possible to max out an elementalist in 5 days played, it was rare to the point of 'jesus h christ' and getting it noted in your account notes that you were this type of player. I've seen literally -1- instance of this. And for more than a year, I was in a position to verifiably know whether or not this was the case for any and every pc in existence.