Reactions to the Witch Subguilds

[Cind]

I have to find my groove with the current magicker guilds. Still not warmed up to them.

Yeah, me neither. It's like esoterically, I get that they are more well-rounded 'people' now, and not just glass cannons. The best bet so far has been for me to play PCs that are unmanifested, and unaware of their connection with magick beyond the stray 'huh' sort of moment.

I think I've found my groove with witches now, at least the ones I can app regularly. Its because they're not generalized anymore, each one is tailored to some lifestyles and not others, so it took me a while to figure out what I like the most.

I remember storing when the witch subguilds were opened for the first time. I was so excited. I remember some of us were afraid we were going to be swarmed with witches everywhere. But if anything they've dwindled a bit. Its probably our player counts and the fact that its so much easier to play a witch that isn't based out of 'nak, so I might not have been seeing a lot of them.

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Its been a long time, not quite a year. Long enough to notice trends. Do you like the changes? Are there some unintended mistakes you've noticed? Did your dire predictions about <thing or other> come true?

[Synthesis]

"Not quite a year" is not "a long time."

I've played one, so far.  It was a huge disappointment until I got to third-tier branched spells that were actually useful.  Of the 9 spells I ended up with, I basically only used two.

The theme is interesting, but the spell set is poorly thought out from a game design perspective.  Some fundamental spells of the element are missing.  Some spells in the subguild are totally useless without support spells that are not included in the subguild.

Player interaction has been minimal.  Every other magicker I met died relatively quickly, probably to typical loner PC shit (scrab, carru, yompar, mek, bahamet, gith, raptor, tarantula, fell in a hole, etc.).  These are not the good old days where you could be shitty at playing a mundane PC but rock mages.  If you suck at playing unclanned ranger/warrior/assassin/whatever...your 'gicker is gonna die a lame mundane death.

[Reiloth]

To me, it's that magickers have become more nuanced and less inherently 'magicker by profession and trade'.

Before the changes, it was like...You were either a) unmanifested, and normal b) manifested, and weird, and typically 'found out' soon after manifesting or c) already manifested, either a rogue magicker or a Gemmer. It felt like there was very little nuance between all the options, and once one option moved to the next (a to b, or b to c), you were extremely typecast into those archetypes of the role.

Now, it feels like Magick is just one tool to tell a story. Sure, it can be a powerful tool, or it can just be an interesting backstory. Either way, it doesn't serve as a game breaking device, and it leans more heavily towards the RP reinforcement rather than code reinforcement.

As a critique, in general, I would have liked more of a 'choice' system behind magick, where spells can be gained, specialities can be determined mid-gameplay, and more powerful spells could be obtained at the loss of less powerful, more utility focused spells. Some of the sub guilds contain redundancies (multiple damage spells, just less powerful than the previously branched one, or damage over time, with not enough RP flavor difference). Others contain sort of 'huh' moments, where you suppose it makes sense, but it feels like there were 40 spells getting divided up, and the last 3-5 had to go 'somewhere'. I also agree with Code Guru that some spells seem oddly matched, or missing integral utility spells that enhance them (or used to, with full guild).

All in all i'm happy with the changes. I think they create more opportunities than diminish them, and it very much changes the magicker dynamic. The rarity of magick seems compounded by the fact that anyone around you could potentially be a dangerous magicker, which makes it all the more scary.

On the flip side, I would still like to see the occasional incredibly powerful defiler or preserver, or full magicker elementalist, even if it was used as a plot device by Staff. Magick should be rare and scary, and dangerous, but also mysterious and not predictably watered down. By having the odd NPC or two, every few years or even just rumored to exist, it makes magick seem unpredictable and not contained within coded confines. I don't want to have the thought process introduced of 'How scary could a Magicker be, it's only a sub guild now.'

[Synthesis]

But also...yeah...we aren't "seeing" a lot of them because I guarantee you there are a shitload more "unmanifested" types than there used to be, who are just biding their time and grinding out the mundane shit.

Being unmanifested now is much posher than before, obviously.

Edit:  to expound upon this:  Anyone with the slightest bit of sense is going to recognize that it is infinitely wiser to begin your career as a magicker now -after- you have passed the point where any random scrub can come along and wreck your shit.  Prior to this change, your best bet was to branch your checkmate! spells as fast as fucking possible to prevent this from happening.  Currently, there are probably only 1 or 2 subguild magickers where the better play is to spamcast to checkmate! than to grind out the mundane first.

I can already hear the groans, but this is human behavior vis a vis game design.  I'm not saying it's the ideal way to play, but it's going to be the average way, based on the playing field design.

Oh, and yes, I definitely experienced the "well, let's see what they can -actually- do now" thing.  Hint:  you still can't parry fireballs, people.

[Harmless]

Synth is right as far as I can tell even though I think the way it is worded above sounds very pessimistic. In the end I appreciate the subguilds for giving us more variety and allowing a character to have an internal goal (manifest eventually) that can be unmet for a long time without breaking a character, but I still think mainguilded magickers had a place in the world and made sense and were balanced and didn't really need to go out the door in the first place.

[BadSkeelz]

I've seen fewer magickers. Whether this means they're being played less, dying more often to "typical loner PC shit" or just biding their time before manifesting, it's all good in my book. It's less magick and that's a good thing.

[nauta]

I remember some of us were afraid we were going to be swarmed with witches everywhere. But if anything they've dwindled a bit. Its probably our player counts and the fact that its so much easier to play a witch that isn't based out of 'nak, so I might not have been seeing a lot of them.

I'd be curious what the numbers are as a percentage of the players; it might be the circles I've run in the last year, but I've seen a big uptick in the number of magickers I meet -- so much so that my meta has switched to assuming a magicker as subguild.

That said -- I haven't seen anything but positives out of all of this: magickers are now able to be people first, and people continue to play to the docs (from what I've seen).

[Lizzie]

I went from 100% interest in wanting to play mages, wanting to interact with mages, and wanting to be victims of/allies of/witness to atrocities committed by mages...

to absolutely 0% interest. In fact the lack of full guild mages (especially sorcerers) has somewhat diminished my interest in playing Armageddon. It's still an awesome game, and I'm still not interested in playing any other game. But it is much less interesting than it was.

I don't plan on playing a mage subguild. The fact that EVERYONE can be a mage means that magick is no longer intriguing.

[Riev]

I don't plan on playing a mage subguild. The fact that EVERYONE can be a mage means that magick is no longer intriguing.

This is, more or less, how I feel. From the game perspective, "anyone could be a magicker" makes sense and fits with the world. The change was most definitely world-based, but had a massive effect on the gameplay as well. I'm not saying the changes are dumb, or MUST BE ROLLED BACK. What I'm saying is that this story-driven change has had an affect, at least to me, on the attitude of wanting to BE someone interested in the magick of the game. Heck,

I'd be happy if the full elementalists were back in, but at like 6 karma. So you have to CHOOSE to be a full rukkian, bred or chosen to be that and only that, or maybe your role is that you are a burglar who just happened to be touched by Ruk one day when falling off a balcony. Make those who want to be powerful mages, require the trust of staff to roleplay it effectively, and those who want the magick to not be the ONLY part of their story be able to choose that as well.

[azuriolinist]

As someone who hasn't, yet, given the new magick subguilds a try, I'm of the opinion that I like what they introduce into the game. It's much easier for magickers (who want to) to blend in amongst mundanes, nowadays, which I find is realistic, like Riev said. In my mind, the changes contribute to the level of intrigue and deception around magick roleplay, knowing you may or may not discover that someone close to you is a filthy 'gick.

If the opinion is that magick may now be too common, maybe raise the required karma for each subguild. I think that, after what seemed like a surge of magickers after the additions, a balance has settled, really.

Just a few opinions... from my incredibly limited exposure to the subguilds, I think a few of the magick subguilds should be lowered in karma cost (such as a certain Krathi aspect), while others raised (that particular Rukkian subguild).

[Feco]

Im interested to see how the rest of the guild revamp goes, but my gut tells me I want full elementalists back.

One goal was to make mages "people first." I feel like instead it made them "some mundane profession first." I like it as an option, but would prefer it be just that -- an option.

I'm willing to give it more time, though.  I haven't spent tons of time playing or interacting with magicker since the change.

[RogueGunslinger]

I feel like magic being less prominent is a good thing but i dont think that was the intention.

[Delirium]

I think the problem is more in the number and balance of spells the subguilds possess, which is something that can be adjusted as time goes on, much like the sorcerer subguilds were.

[Feco]

I think the problem is more in the number and balance of spells the subguilds possess, which is something that can be adjusted as time goes on, much like the sorcerer subguilds were.

I'm really worried about balance, but I don't have the experience to make an informed judgment.  My gut tells me they don't get enough spells, but I dunno if that's worth much.

[Cind]

I would love, love all the magick main guilds to come back, as higher karma than before, and magick subguilds for the other elements that are missing now.

[Akaramu]

Im interested to see how the rest of the guild revamp goes, but my gut tells me I want full elementalists back.

One goal was to make mages "people first." I feel like instead it made them "some mundane profession first." I like it as an option, but would prefer it be just that -- an option.

This. I always felt mages were 'people'. Roleplay makes people, not skills. I admittedly have limited to no experience with the change, but I have this odd, odd suspicion that players who were never interested in magick roleplay before will now make rogue mages simply for the leet skill synergy coded advantages, not because they're interested in the RP side of magick. I also highly suspect magick is actually more common before, with more PCs being rogue mages. But as I said, it's just a hunch.

I would love, love all the magick main guilds to come back, as higher karma than before, and magick subguilds for the other elements that are missing now.

And this. Make some of them 8 karma if you feel it's necessary, but pretty please bring them back.

Another thought: this is purely an OOC change, so ICly, it would be really really odd for ALL mages to only have a third of their spells now. Hell, many new Whirans won't even be able to visit the upper levels of their temple anymore. Because all Whirans are ICly expected to learn how to fly!

[Miradus]

I'm curious what percentage of players have 8 karma.

I'd like to see the numbers on that.

How many players have 8 karma.
How many players have 5 karma and are thus within range of 8 with a special app.

[Akaramu]

I'm curious what percentage of players have 8 karma.

I'd like to see the numbers on that.

How many players have 8 karma.
How many players have 5 karma and are thus within range of 8 with a special app.

You could always make a poll!

[Lizzie]

Another thought: this is purely an OOC change, so ICly, it would be really really odd for ALL mages to only have a third of their spells now. Hell, many new Whirans won't even be able to visit the upper levels of their temple anymore. Because all Whirans are ICly expected to learn how to fly!

This has the same effect on the "guild sniffing problem", except it uses a different avenue to get there. The end result is the same.

Oash: We need a water mage.
Viv: I am a water mage.
Oash: Oh good. Our tuns are empty, I need you to fill them with water.
Viv: I can't do that.
Oash: wtf...We need a REAL water mage.

Templar: A whiran huh? I need you to fly to Morin's, invisible, and find out what they're up to.
Whiran: I can't do that.
Templar: How long have you been studying your craft?
Whiran: Four years. I will never be able to fly or turn invisible, because reasons.
Templar: Fuck you. I need a REAL Whiran.

AOD Sergeant: We need a krathi to make us rangz and un-gickery our troops after this RPT.
Krathi: I can make rangz but I can't ungickery you because reasons.
AOD Sergeant: I'm not paying for two krathis. Fuck you. I need a REAL krathi.

So you won't necessarily know what someone is, but you will definitely know what he is NOT. End result is the same: RP takes a back seat to code.

[BadSkeelz]

You could always hire mundanes to fill those jobs instead of taking the easy way out.

Except for the "ungickery" the troops part, but hopefully with less magickers in the world that's less of a problem. Plus Templars can do that.

What I really don't understand is the assertion that "EVERYONE can [now] be a mage". There are no zero karma mage subguilds. There's a larger number of subguilds but they remain in the same karma range. Now it's true that you could be a type of Whiran at a lower karma level depending on subguild, so if what you really mean is "low karma scrubs can now play with the same element (if not at the same level of utility) as what was once my elite domain" then I can begin to understand where you're coming from.

[Delirium]

What if we allowed elementalists, through some sort of standardized quest system, to unlock further powers (at, possibly, a cost to their mundane selves - something that requires sacrifice but isn't overly punitive)?

[Miradus]

What if we allowed elementalists, through some sort of standardized quest system, to unlock further powers (at, possibly, a cost to their mundane selves - something that requires sacrifice but isn't overly punitive)?

Even if it wasn't a quest system, but just a further reward for good roleplay and longevity.

One of the things I like in other rpg games is that quest for ultimate power that doesn't top out. Skills in Arm are hard enough to gain and master that I rarely ever get that far, but just knowing the possibility existed to have new powers/skills added to your character would be a huge motivator.

[Akaramu]

You could always hire mundanes to fill those jobs instead of taking the easy way out.

Would you want to be the guy in charge of keeping the clan's water tuns filled? 

To use another example from a RPT we both participated in a few years ago - would you want to scout ahead into caves and tunnels so packed full of spiders that even with max sneak / hide you'd be stumbling over them and they'd be immediately aware of you?

More seriously though, except for one or two instances I always felt that magick RPTs and plotlines added a lot to the game. Maybe you haven't yet had the opportunity to take part in the good ones, and given your dislike for magick, maybe you never will.

What I really don't understand is the assertion that "EVERYONE can [now] be a mage".

I think they meant it in the sense that ALL of your three best Byn buddies could suddenly turn out to be mages. At that point you probably wouldn't think magick is rare and mysterious and scary anymore, you'd be like... WTF! But I've known those guys for years and they seemed so normal and nothing bad happened to me despite having been so close to them for so long!

[BadSkeelz]

You could always hire mundanes to fill those jobs instead of taking the easy way out.

Would you want to be the guy in charge of keeping the clan's water tuns filled? 

To use another example from a RPT we both participated in a few years ago - would you want to scout ahead into caves and tunnels so packed full of spiders that even with max sneak / hide you'd be stumbling over them and they'd be immediately aware of you?

As you know, I was the guy in charge of keeping the tuns filled, or at least delegating it to peons. For your caves and tunnels example, if the mundane-skill checks were so high as to be impossible to scout using mundane skills, I would call that bad game design. Unfortunately, a lot of the reason why mage-PCs are perceived as useful as they are is because Mundanes are not as useful as they could or should be.

What I really don't understand is the assertion that "EVERYONE can [now] be a mage".

I think they meant it in the sense that ALL of your three best Byn buddies could suddenly turn out to be mages. At that point you probably wouldn't think magick is rare and mysterious and scary anymore, you'd be like... WTF! But I've known those guys for years and they seemed so normal and nothing bad happened to me despite having been so close to them for so long!

Maybe if they said "Anybody could be a mage" but that isn't what Lizzie's said... she said "EVERYBODY can be a mage." They would need to clarify. For the record I still don't think it's much different from before, when mages could hide pretty well as non-combat PCs. The only difference now is that a mage can convincingly hide behind all mundane subguilds, instead of just the non-combat ones.

What if we allowed elementalists, through some sort of standardized quest system, to unlock further powers (at, possibly, a cost to their mundane selves - something that requires sacrifice but isn't overly punitive)?

Even if it wasn't a quest system, but just a further reward for good roleplay and longevity.

One of the things I like in other rpg games is that quest for ultimate power that doesn't top out. Skills in Arm are hard enough to gain and master that I rarely ever get that far, but just knowing the possibility existed to have new powers/skills added to your character would be a huge motivator.

I'm not philosophically opposed to it, but see some logistical challenges.

If you make these "further powers" reachable via some sort of coded grind or "quest" system or through simple longevity (i.e. Not requiring direct staff intervention) I don't think it'll really improve anything. Giving people something to grind for harder isn't going to make them better players, or their characters more interesting, or better integrate them in to the game world. As we saw with Full Guild Elementalists, a sizeable minority (if not majority) of mage-players will just stay out of sight, safely leveling up until their skills are at a "useful" level.

If you make this quest a little more involved, then you're going to need Staff to run it. So now you're drawing Staff resources away from the majority of the playerbase to cater to a select minority whose only real reason to do the quest is become more code-buff.

[Akaramu]

For the record I still don't think it's much different from before, when mages could hide pretty well as non-combat PCs. The only difference now is that a mage can convincingly hide behind all mundane subguilds, instead of just the non-combat ones.

I predict it's going to be far, FAR more common now. But I've only been back in the game for a little while, so I may be proven wrong.