Idea: New skill grade "Grand Master", and some more stuff.

[bardlyone]

I disagree with the "Grand Master" skill idea. Combat skills take too long to level up, and have too much range of effectiveness as it is.

I think you would need to keep the "skill gap" between starting and established characters relatively narrow to increase risky behavior. If you push back the "end goal" people will just continue to chase it. You need to narrow the range entirely.

Giving players something more to grind for will just further the need to grind, no matter how competent a new PC is out of the box. People will look at it as needing that end-grind goal, so they can compete with others who have already achieved it.

I disagree (Though it's just a personal difference in opinion). I prefer to have a mildly competent PC, and don't really care to have the 'better than everyone else at <x>' PC. I think more competent PCs out of the box will be involved in more plots, because their employers will rightfully believe they can accomplish the tasks they set them out to do without literal years of training.

I thought the grand master aspect was to also be random, and if that's the case... that sort of invalidates the point about grinding further, I would think, as no one who doesn't have that potential could reach it ANYHOW, right?

[Reiloth]

I disagree with the "Grand Master" skill idea. Combat skills take too long to level up, and have too much range of effectiveness as it is.

I think you would need to keep the "skill gap" between starting and established characters relatively narrow to increase risky behavior. If you push back the "end goal" people will just continue to chase it. You need to narrow the range entirely.

Giving players something more to grind for will just further the need to grind, no matter how competent a new PC is out of the box. People will look at it as needing that end-grind goal, so they can compete with others who have already achieved it.

I disagree (Though it's just a personal difference in opinion). I prefer to have a mildly competent PC, and don't really care to have the 'better than everyone else at <x>' PC. I think more competent PCs out of the box will be involved in more plots, because their employers will rightfully believe they can accomplish the tasks they set them out to do without literal years of training.

I thought the grand master aspect was to also be random, and if that's the case... that sort of invalidates the point about grinding further, I would think, as no one who doesn't have that potential could reach it ANYHOW, right?

I mean I personally would like for it to be random, but I was assuming the playerbase would like to pick which skill they are grand-master in.

To balance things out, maybe you can also be 'grand fucktard' in a random skill. No matter how hard you try, you're just terrible at it.

I'm truly just an agent of Chaos.

[Patuk]

Well, at least I have the imagination and courage to post my ideas, rather than troll people with simple "No" answers, that require basically no forethought or counter-argument capability.

We're all entitled to butts and opinions though, so you're in your right to disagree with me (and my terrible ideas).

Here's a question: Do we change things by complaining about them, or by suggesting ways of changing them? For instance, you seem to think character creation is flawed, but instead of offering a potential solution, you simply admit it's 'flawed' and claim it is imbalanced. And you are (I suppose) alright with that.

If you read my post, I actually said 'Taking Karma out of the equation'.

Point taken on the karma thing. For playing a text-based game, I read terribly.

But really? You're allowed to bring forth your opinion on something, where I'm not? I don't owe a peer-reviewed thinkpiece every time I disagree with someone. Have you considered what this change of yours might do? Anything higher than master scan at its current level can invalidate any sneaky person not also at grandmaster. Grandmaster archery turns a ranger/delf into an even deadlier asshole than is already the case. Even skills like shield use and parry offer a very strong advantage over others. It's an immensely strong boost to any PC with boosts to such skills as opposed to craft skills, direction sense, or even just forage.

Your point about complaining is laughable, though. Complaining is bad.. So, you're going to complain. I do offer suggestions for making the game better, thank you. When staff asked me to make a request about it, I did that. When Taven sparked discussion on conflict, I talked there. When you came up with a terrible idea, my suggestion is 'no'.

[Reiloth]

Cool, thanks. Sorry for bumping into you in the dark.

[Hauwke]

I would love to play that one Byn fuckhead that is just so terribly hard to kill because he hides behind his shield better than anyone else, just saying.

(I would also like to wail on said guy just because he is a wussy and hides behind a shield so whatever.)

[solera]

I like the idea of wild cards too, particularly the magick one. I wonder what percentage of the players we are, compared with those that prefer planned stats.

[Miradus]

I don't like the thought of a superior skill being "random". If it's there, I want the ability to reach it.

If by practice and longevity beyond just master I have a chance of reaching it then awesome, but I don't want it hidden behind simple RNG.

I like the combat system. It's fun. It's risky. Just like some people like sitting in taverns or trying on fancy clothes, I like fighting things. I don't know why I feel the need to defend that sometimes when I read the forum.

[solera]

Both preferences are valid. I wonder if I prefer random because I prefer not to compete and lose.  I know that is why I have never chosen the warrior guild

[Lizzie]

I'd like its stellar opposite:

ALL non-magick, non-mindbender skills start at novice, for EVERYONE. Everyone starts at +1 on everything.

And then selected guilds get the bump to whatever those guilds normally start at, subguilds at what they normally start at, branches get whatever they start at, and end however they normally end.

But I feel everyone should be capable of holding a weapon and having a decent chance at surviving a fight against a rat. And everyone should be capable of TRYING to hide, and maybe even succeeding at it once in awhile. And everyone should be capable of attempting to pick a lock, though they'd typically fail, often critically - and sometimes they'd get lucky and succeed on a low-level lock.

Anything that doesn't normally come with your guild/subguild, would remain at +1 (or +10 or whatever is the starting novice numeric equivalent). Cooking, foraging - foraging for food would be included in this - you have to assume that ONCE IN AWHILE some shlub warrior/thug will find an edible tuber and pull it out of the ground.

The only people I feel "need" mastery in anything are people who have merchant/mastery-crafter-subguilds, so that they can submit their mastercrafts. Everyone else - doesn't need master anything at all, IMO and in my experience. Master skills are awesome and fun, but totally not necessary to play a viable anything OTHER than "character whose player wants to submit master crafts."

[Reiloth]

Wow, that's a game I don't want to play. Sounds like Everquest.

[nauta]

I'm not very sure I quite grokked Lizzie's post, but it did motivate me to post something that I've been thinking about after reading some recent threads, namely:

Make us all suck more.  That's the thesis.  Here's how it'd work out, with some motivation.  Non-combat skills would cap at low advanced (with some individual discretion for certain skills that are crucially non-fail and some exception to crafting skills).  Combat sills would cap at journeyman.  You'd move branches down accordingly.

Here's the motivation:

(1) PvE.  As mentioned elsewhere, once you achieve advanced or even high journeyman in your combat skills, there's very little that can hurt you out in the wilds, provided you are paying attention.  (Always bad luck cases.)  And I mean hurt you, period.  I'm not advocating more omidrov wut? moments and staring at the mantis head.  I would like to see more: ouch, flee! moments when moving through the deserts.  Basically, instead of making the mobs tougher, make us less tough.

(2) PvP works out to the same race to the top no matter where that top is: be it master, grand master, or apprentice.  However, there would be a kind of leveling-out effect here by eliminating advanced and master, that I think would be nice.

Ultimately, the motivation is that failing a skill, especially in combat situations, generates a lot more fun than never failing a skill, from RPing out your wound, to having a heart-thumping chase back to safety and a tent for the night, to the potential for more nuanced PvP combat, where arrows fly and some miss, some hit, to having to chase down or hire someone to get more ingredients for the craft you failed, to failing to skin the hide and having to go hunt another one, etc. etc.  We'd also be a lot more 'even' in terms of skills progression.

Anyway, it's a pie in the sky dream idea, but that's it.  There's 20 years or so of work tweaking the current system, so it's really a pie in the sky dream idea, hehe.

[Lizzie]

Wow, that's a game I don't want to play. Sounds like Everquest.

I've never played EQ or any other graphic game (other than King's Quest and Myst) so I don't understand the intention of your comment, at all.

However - just to clarify: I'm not suggesting people suck more.

I'm saying I don't see any need for mastery to be improved, because it's fine as is and is really only "necessary" if you want to master-craft something. You don't need to be a master archer to be a viable - or even decent - archer. You don't need to master piked weapons in order to be a kick-ass warrior. You don't even need to master all the spells on your spells list in order to be an awesome spellslinger. Sure it's great to have, but it's not necessary to be viable, or even kick-ass. And so - no improvement needed regarding mastery.

I would ALSO like to see everyone be capable of TRYING every non-magickal and non-psionic skill, without getting an error message saying they can't do that. I'd like to see everyone be capable of attempting to cut linen into bandages. I hate the "you can't do anything with this" message. Why can't you do anything with it, ever? Why is it not possible for you to EVENTUALLY - ONCE IN AWHILE - manage to rip a length of linen into a few strips, and call it "rudimentary bandage?" Why can't you make a loincloth out of a strip of leather or a strip of cloth? It involves NO sewing. None. At all. Everyone should be capable of doing it, eventually, once in awhile. Same for yanking a root out of the ground, and ripping a chunk of chitin off a scrab, and ducking behind a boulder, and shooting an arrow.

There should be the ability for everyone to _try_ all these skills, even if the chance of success is near zero.

[Reiloth]

That I can agree with 100%.

The Everquest comment means "starting out on rats, in the newbie zone" which is a gross over simplification of your post.

[Lizzie]

I'd also really LOVE it - I mean significantly profoundly adore it - if:

A character with less than 15HPs missing -

be capable of being bandaged by ANYONE. Even if they only have 1HP missing - the bandage skill should work. In fact, it should work more reliably, the fewer hps it has to restore. At 1HP, no one should ever miss, but everyone should be able to do it. Why? For the arr-pee. I've had to deal with people who restore hps naturally SO fast that I can't even get an emote out before they no longer have to be bandaged. And yet - they were just clobbered for 40hps in a single shot, less than 2 minutes ago. But because they crossed that ubiquitous threshhold, I get an error message when I try to wrap a length of gauze around their bloodied wrist. And then, I have to RP it out, and then I have to "junk" the scrap of cloth.

It'd be so much nicer if I could just "bandage amos" anyway and it'd use up that scrap of cloth, and either restore - or not restore - the last few hps the guy needs to be at 100%. Again - even if it didn't restore anything, I'd still like to be able to use that skill and have it use up the bandage and give some echo other than an error message.

[bardlyone]

Agree with you Liz, on the bandaging bit.

I hate that you have to be at such a small and specific threshold to be able to be bandaged even if you have the skill but only at starting levels. It is a source of massive frustration and really skewers mundane healer types.

[Kalden]

It would be cool if there was a random chance of getting some extra psionic skill or two, or a magick skill.

[azuriolinist]

+1 to that idea wherein each PC gets novice in every mundane skill, Lizzie. It should totally be possible for a PC to at least try. I've sometimes found it awkward to RP around the utter disability of my character to do things that weren't on their skill list.

As for the OP's post, I like the idea of getting boosts in certain skills from the get-go. The number of boosts, however, in my opinion, should be based around the PC's age. If it's not a given, the boosts chosen should probably be limited to guild/subguild skills.

I'm unsure about the idea of having a higher skill cap. Master in most skills is already pretty damn OP, from what I've seen, and would make some things (e.g. hide) unrealistically impenetrable. As long as grandmaster is incredibly hard to come by, maybe, but that might just lead to a ton of grinding.

[boog]

I'm not very sure I quite grokked Lizzie's post, but it did motivate me to post something that I've been thinking about after reading some recent threads, namely:

Make us all suck more.  That's the thesis.  Here's how it'd work out, with some motivation.  Non-combat skills would cap at low advanced (with some individual discretion for certain skills that are crucially non-fail and some exception to crafting skills).  Combat sills would cap at journeyman.  You'd move branches down accordingly.

Here's the motivation:

(1) PvE.  As mentioned elsewhere, once you achieve advanced or even high journeyman in your combat skills, there's very little that can hurt you out in the wilds, provided you are paying attention.  (Always bad luck cases.)  And I mean hurt you, period.  I'm not advocating more omidrov wut? moments and staring at the mantis head.  I would like to see more: ouch, flee! moments when moving through the deserts.  Basically, instead of making the mobs tougher, make us less tough.

(2) PvP works out to the same race to the top no matter where that top is: be it master, grand master, or apprentice.  However, there would be a kind of leveling-out effect here by eliminating advanced and master, that I think would be nice.

Ultimately, the motivation is that failing a skill, especially in combat situations, generates a lot more fun than never failing a skill, from RPing out your wound, to having a heart-thumping chase back to safety and a tent for the night, to the potential for more nuanced PvP combat, where arrows fly and some miss, some hit, to having to chase down or hire someone to get more ingredients for the craft you failed, to failing to skin the hide and having to go hunt another one, etc. etc.  We'd also be a lot more 'even' in terms of skills progression.

Anyway, it's a pie in the sky dream idea, but that's it.  There's 20 years or so of work tweaking the current system, so it's really a pie in the sky dream idea, hehe.

I suggested this above, too. But I think it became lost in the post rolls. That's okay. I love you.

[Jingo]

I havn't read the whole thread.

I wouldn't say Reiloth has an awful idea. But it could use some work.

I'm not in favor adding an extra layer to the skill tree. But I am in favor of a sort of questing system that could keep players busy towards the end of their lifetime. Perhaps there was a way for a character to develop jihaen techniques, psionic potential or even rudimentary sorceries after a long, torturous ordeal. Or just get a skill bump or something, I dunno.

[WanderingOoze]

Agree with you Liz, on the bandaging bit.

I hate that you have to be at such a small and specific threshold to be able to be bandaged even if you have the skill but only at starting levels. It is a source of massive frustration and really skewers mundane healer types.

Yeah, this. And it would help to cut down on the dumb but
almost necessary trend of I gotta let myself get my shit kicked
in really bad so I/my clanmate can practice bandaging. That's always been an annoyance. Especially if 'sparring safety' is a rule, but folks are still just not fleeing at an appropriate time -constantly- just to be sure they are 'hurt enough' to be bandaged for the gains.

[Dunetrade55]

Bandaging has never really been that hard for me to master but I agree the magic "twink window" on bandaging leads to some really odd IG behavior, and would like to see it adjusted a little.

[Lizzie]

Bandaging has never really been that hard for me to master but I agree the magic "twink window" on bandaging leads to some really odd IG behavior, and would like to see it adjusted a little.

Not even all that concerned with skill bumps at low successes. But even people who have a papercut need to put a bandaid on, if they're working with "things that will bump into my cut and cause PAIN." And a papercut is maybe - 1hp's worth of damage, if you were to bring "paper cut value" into the game.

Even 1hp's worth of damage should allow someone to bandage them. Even if they get zero skill bump for it, even if it's always 100% successful. I think, whatever the low threshhold is currently, should only mean "this is the lowest that it's possible to fail, and therefore, get a skill raise." And any number of HPs fewer than that would mean "you can still use bandage, it will always work, even if you don't have the bandage skill, and you can't get any skill increase from it."

[Aruven]

I'll just say i've never had a lack of roleplay immersion based on coded combat abilities as is.

[Dar]

Personally, I think all combat skills should be limited to just 1 point prior to having them branched. With that limit dropping down if a character has been alive for 5 IG years, had someone with a Master skill teach them at least once, or is a part of a combat clan.  We can even make it so combat clans allow mastery of different skills.  Tor would allow mastery to shield use.  Byn dual wield, etc, etc.  It would still be possible to master all of these styles, you would just need to hire out someone from a different clan via whatever means available to you.  Working for a Noble house would often entrap you into a lifeoath, but would also open you up to being taught by people that wouldnt normally teach you.


Similar things could work for different skills too. Crafting and such like. Do a stint in Kadius as a crafter trainee, to gain access to mastery on your jewelry/clothes making skills then quit. You'll know the Kadius secrets, but you'll earn Kadius ire via using those secret. Gain a MASSIVE Ire from Kadius by teaching those secrets to other crafters on your way to establishing your own merchant house. Decisions. Decisions.

[Pretentious]

What if skills could go beyond master by a few points so that the range allowed for 'Beyond Master', or "Grand Master"?...

What if you could choose one skill to start at advanced...

Thoughts?

It sounds like it would wreak havoc on the already delicate and quirky balance of the game.

The skill bumps being tied to karma makes sense to me. Hopefully at some point that gets automated. But for the time being, I think it's perfectly reasonable to use special apps if you think your concept should come out of the gates with more skills.

And I DEFINITELY think that any skills having a higher cap than your guild/subguild normally dictates needs to be a spec app, period. And giving any guild that already has the highest cap for that skill even more potential is something I fully object to. I can't think of any instance where that would enrich the game.

Make us all suck more.

I appreciate how well you've articulated your reasoning, motivation, and solution here. However, and no offense intended, I disagree with you pretty much completely. Still trying to articulate my thoughts on it properly, though.

We'd also be a lot more 'even' in terms of skills progression.

By that, do you mean that the difference between and 'old' PC and a 'young' one would be less, or are you talking about the different guilds being more 'even'? Or both?

(Also, if you want to suck more, I'm pretty sure you could spec-app -lower- skill caps)