Idea: New skill grade "Grand Master", and some more stuff.

[Reiloth]

Hello,

What if skills could go beyond master by a few points so that the range allowed for 'Beyond Master', or "Grand Master"?

What if the possibility of gaining this 'grand mastery' was figured out at character inception (rolled randomly, or perhaps chosen) as a potential for the PC? You can choose one skill, and you might (one day) become a 'Grand Master' in this skill. This doesn't mean you will succeed more often, but it does mean you have an edge over similarly skilled people in end game combat and skill vs skill checks (psionics, stealth, and so on).

What if you could choose one skill to start at advanced, three skills to start at journeyman, and two skills to start at apprentice? Eliminate the 'karma' aspect to skill bumps entirely, and just let people play well-rounded PCs from the beginning.

To avoid being OP from the get-go, perhaps limit which skills can be picked for advanced to start. Or maybe not, maybe that will actually make it more conflict-inducing to have an assassin with high backstab (and low everything else including combat skills) out in the political mix.

Thoughts?

[bardlyone]

I like it. All of it.

[Delirium]

Not gonna lie, I'd pick weapon skills, every time.

[Riev]

I'd pick weapon skills because duh.

Also, if it was randomized, I just KNOW I'd be the one with the potential to Grand Master Value.

[Reiloth]

Not gonna lie, I'd pick weapon skills, every time.

Yeah, i'm wondering if there's some metric so it could be like 'You can pick only one weapon skill, and only up to jman' or something like that. Or not! Not having Offense or Defense above starting numbers (and being unable to adjust them) still gives people who have been around/actually experienced fighters or whatever have an edge.

I like the idea of a hawk-eye (Grand Master Scanner) or a legendary sneaker stinker. Dunno. Just a thought I had!

[Patuk]

No.

[Reiloth]

No.

So verbose, Patuk.

[Patuk]

Your ideas as of late just seem kind of bad. Character creation already has a massive imbalance in the way stats are generated; adding randomisation to skills, not to mention giving more power still to those who have karma, is a terrible idea.

[Reiloth]

Your ideas as of late just seem kind of bad. Character creation already has a massive imbalance in the way stats are generated; adding randomisation to skills, not to mention giving more power still to those who have karma, is a terrible idea.

Well, at least I have the imagination and courage to post my ideas, rather than troll people with simple "No" answers, that require basically no forethought or counter-argument capability.

We're all entitled to butts and opinions though, so you're in your right to disagree with me (and my terrible ideas).

Here's a question: Do we change things by complaining about them, or by suggesting ways of changing them? For instance, you seem to think character creation is flawed, but instead of offering a potential solution, you simply admit it's 'flawed' and claim it is imbalanced. And you are (I suppose) alright with that.

If you read my post, I actually said 'Taking Karma out of the equation'.

[bardlyone]

I don't know what you're talking about Patuk, he actually mentions NOT tying it to karma. I like the notion that sometimes people are just savants at something with the chance to be better at them than anyone else and that it really is sheerly chance/happenstance/random. Sure it's not random witchery, which I've always been behind, but it still feels realistic and interesting.

[Riev]

Here's a question: Do we change things by complaining about them, or by suggesting ways of changing them? For instance, you seem to think character creation is flawed, but instead of offering a potential solution, you simply admit it's 'flawed' and claim it is imbalanced. And you are (I suppose) alright with that.

You're better than that, Paris.

People cannot be both entitled to their opinions, and not entitled to express their opinions.

I don't think its a good addition to this game. Possibly other games, but this one is supposed to be about the roleplay, not the grand master (or so I'm told, I still want a slashing fail). Perhaps more room for "random" skills to be added might be interesting, but hard to control for (assassin suddenly gets non-apped for master archery?).

I just don't think it'd work. You could ask staff if, at Master, to go through some IC training to raise your cap a couple points but I bet they'll say no.

[Reiloth]

Here's a question: Do we change things by complaining about them, or by suggesting ways of changing them? For instance, you seem to think character creation is flawed, but instead of offering a potential solution, you simply admit it's 'flawed' and claim it is imbalanced. And you are (I suppose) alright with that.

You're better than that, Paris.

People cannot be both entitled to their opinions, and not entitled to express their opinions.

I don't think its a good addition to this game. Possibly other games, but this one is supposed to be about the roleplay, not the grand master (or so I'm told, I still want a slashing fail). Perhaps more room for "random" skills to be added might be interesting, but hard to control for (assassin suddenly gets non-apped for master archery?).

I just don't think it'd work. You could ask staff if, at Master, to go through some IC training to raise your cap a couple points but I bet they'll say no.

Better than what? It's not a very intense question at all. Do we change things by complaining about them, or by suggesting changes? Pretty simple. I think we change things by suggesting how to change them, rather than complaining about them ad nauseum.

As I said -- Everyone's entitled to an opinion, even Patuk to a 'No', but a 'No' isn't really going to get a very verbose response, will it? Yes, I guess. Maybe?

Your response is much more thoughtful, and actually provides an opinion. That, I can get behind and cherish (and actually respond to).

While this game is about the roleplay, I am attempting to address much of the malaise expressed in other threads recently, of how to get people into the action and plots rather than into the grind.

I think there could be parameters to this (just as there are to any addition to the game), but I don't think Guilds would get non-branched, non-class random skills or random potential. It would be within their current skillset guild/subguild.

[bardlyone]

I also want to point out that like (and you are actually bad about this with me Reiloth, but it's unfair when anyone does it to anyone), it seems like the party of 'no' is reading shit into the post that it doesn't say.

It doesn't say you start with it that level but that it's figured on if it can cap at that level.

It also doesn't say it'd be tied to karma.

Like... I wish people would respond to what is actually said, instead of random stuff they read into things.

The possibility of starting out with a couple j-man and maybe an advanced skill at random without having had to have played for sometimes years and years? Awesome.

The possibility of someone being preternaturally good in a way that people can't 'git gud scrub' grind to, is awesome.

And the objections I've seen seem irrelevant since they're all rooted in stuff that is not actually being proposed.

[tortall]

The possibility of starting out with a couple j-man and maybe an advanced skill at random without having had to have played for sometimes years and years? Awesome.

The possibility of someone being preternaturally good in a way that people can't 'git gud scrub' grind to, is awesome.

Yep. Random awesome skills based on what your PC would already have. Maybe have a range that it could bump to? Like Apprentice to Advanced? Much like your stats get a random level, 1-2 of your skills could possibly have a random level. And if that random level got high enough to branch something, the first time it got bumped slightly you'd get that branch. But you wouldn't get non-branched skills.

I was going to give an example, but I know it would be an overshare in the past about code and branching stuff, so I'm just gonna leave it as is and someone who who hasn't been gone for 2-3 years can clarify. :-D

[Malifaxis]

No.

So verbose, Patuk.

Every time you post, Reiloth, I am happy to find we have more and more in common.  I as well sometimes apologize to inanimate objects when I take an unfortunate turn in a dark room and bump up against something unexpected. 

Personally, I love the idea, but fuck allowing it for combat skills.  I think you know my stance on combat upgrades... you had it in your quote for a while

Oh, and everyone who wants to take this for combat skills, you're a bunch of fucking twinks, and I love you all. 

[Riev]

Oh, and everyone who wants to take this for combat skills, you're a bunch of fucking twinks, and I love you all.

It is only when we have nothing to worry about, that we may truly die!

[boog]

Yeah, I'm in the no camp because it'd just be a gank festival. I'm cool with how it is. Just like I'm cool with ganking so long as it isn't just ganking because you can gank.

I actually prefer lower caps so people don't feel the need to grind to master and focus more on the RP or the collaboration to get to a skill level that is the very life essence of what this game should be.

I am in favor of random magicks and psi stuff given to characters with a really small percentage, though!

[Rokal]

I actually like this idea, really, I've thought of things extremely similar to this and just haven't had the time to get the concept into writing and voice them to the playerbase.

I personally don't think randomization of this is a bad thing, no matter where your random 'skills' go, you still wind up with something cool.

I just like to work it into RP. I would say even randomizing the things where your skills could start  at higher then starting levels.

A pickpocket that starts with their weapon skills already high? Just a naturally talented fighter for a pickpocket, or perhaps they had a history for it that you can improvise.

To me, random things are just another little thing that are a 'surprise' that allow one to improvise and create a better story with a character.

I am in favor of random magicks and psi stuff given to characters with a really small percentage, though!

I would absoutly love the bolded part, for reasons stated above the quote Someone having a small chance as manifesting as an elementalist.. would be cool.

[SuchDragonWow]

I played a game once that had skill talents for mundane and spell talents for casters.  In a random, unrevealed skill/spell, you are a degree better at it.  You eventually find out through performance.  You can't choose or change it, so if you're talented at create water, so be it.  I like the thought, it could add another dimension to a character.  It shouldn't be tied to karma, obviously.

[Hauwke]

I like the idea, it would give you the opportunity to have that one eagle eyed ranger who you just cannot hide from.

That one assassin who will truly disembowel you with a good knife to the lungs.

That one warrior who can actually shoot worth a shit.

That one burglar who can defend itself.

That one pickpocket who just cant be caught with his dextrous fingers.

That one merchant who can... Make bone swords better than any other merchant?

[BadSkeelz]

I disagree with the "Grand Master" skill idea. Combat skills take too long to level up, and have too much range of effectiveness as it is.

I think you would need to keep the "skill gap" between starting and established characters relatively narrow to increase risky behavior. If you push back the "end goal" people will just continue to chase it. You need to narrow the range entirely.

Giving players something more to grind for will just further the need to grind, no matter how competent a new PC is out of the box. People will look at it as needing that end-grind goal, so they can compete with others who have already achieved it.

[Reiloth]

I like the idea, it would give you the opportunity to have that one eagle eyed ranger who you just cannot hide from.

That one assassin who will truly disembowel you with a good knife to the lungs.

That one warrior who can actually shoot worth a shit.

That one burglar who can defend itself.

That one pickpocket who just cant be caught with his dextrous fingers.

That one merchant who can... Make bone swords better than any other merchant?

With your last example, the problem is the binary system where "Merchant Soandso crafts same bone sword as Merchant Dingdong". So there is no nuance to the craft, an unfortunate byproduct of the item database being what it is. In an ideal world, in a different code system, Merchant Soandso could make an 'Excellent Version of that Bone Sword', that does more damage or weighs less or has more embellishment in detail (allows you to append a 60 character tDesc to the weapon that sticks). Merchant Dingdong might be able to make the bone sword, but not as good as Soandso.

[Reiloth]

I disagree with the "Grand Master" skill idea. Combat skills take too long to level up, and have too much range of effectiveness as it is.

I think you would need to keep the "skill gap" between starting and established characters relatively narrow to increase risky behavior. If you push back the "end goal" people will just continue to chase it. You need to narrow the range entirely.

Giving players something more to grind for will just further the need to grind, no matter how competent a new PC is out of the box. People will look at it as needing that end-grind goal, so they can compete with others who have already achieved it.

I disagree (Though it's just a personal difference in opinion). I prefer to have a mildly competent PC, and don't really care to have the 'better than everyone else at <x>' PC. I think more competent PCs out of the box will be involved in more plots, because their employers will rightfully believe they can accomplish the tasks they set them out to do without literal years of training.

[bardlyone]

That one merchant who can... Make bone swords better than any other merchant?

Maybe they have eidetic memory for market values (GM value) or a silver tongue (GM haggle) or they have ears sharper than an elf (listen), or eyes as sharp as any ranger's (watch). There's stuff merchant's can do beyond crafting. It's just not combat.

[Hauwke]

Yeah I couldnt think of anything for merchant, I just couldnt