Idea: Racial skills

[650Booger]

hi all, this has probably been brought up and shot down numerous times over the lifespan of the game, but here is my take on it.  what if every playable race got a bonus starting skill at low jman?

humans: scan
elves: hide (desert or city depending)
dwarves: bash
half giants: subdue
muls: kick

would this break the game in some way I'm not thinking of?

[Riev]

I don't think so far as RACE anything has been brought up, but there are definitely locations that provide a boost to certain skills (Which could be looked at, without Tuluk around, but Morin's hopefully covers it).


I would suggest no, on races, because not 'every human' is going to be decent at one skill. Location based, it was "reasonable" to believe that people who started in Tuluk would be "a little familiar" with chopping weapons.

Though breeds, and their animal husbandry skills, supposedly get something suggested by the lore. So... MAYBE?

[Dunetrade55]

I'd be ok with elves getting master hide, they need it.

[bardlyone]

I would suggest if humans get a default skill as a race thing, it be haggle to represent the heavy saturation of humans in powerful trading positions almost universally with the exception of the Elf Outpost. That's just me though.

Otherwise I quite like the idea.

[650Booger]

I would suggest if humans get a default skill as a race thing, it be haggle to represent the heavy saturation of humans in powerful trading positions almost universally with the exception of the Elf Outpost. That's just me though.

Otherwise I quite like the idea.

my thinking was human-scan and elf-hide would work as a direct counter to one another, so neither was OP.

follow up - breeds should get scan AND hide, lets give them some love out of respect for the cubic yards of manure that they have to endure.

[Miradus]

The way haggle is coded right now that would offer a huge advantage in coin to humans. While thematically I think that's a perfect fit, but code and in-game economy is pretty broken already. With haggle you'd effectively be buying everything at half price and selling everything for almost double. Plus, a bunch of the subguilds and extended subguilds already offer haggle as one of their features. Are they going to get something else? Or maybe the basic human haggle only goes to apprentice?

I refuse to call these races. They are different species. While I don't particularly care for the skills chosen in the OP, I do think having different specifications for them is a great idea.

But I'd want it to be more subdued. Like dwarves are now.

Coming out of chargen with high endurance and ~140 hp is a huge advantage, no matter what guild you pick. Add to that the tough skin that provides for improved defense and you've got a pretty good set of specific traits on the dwarf species already.

I would say something like decreased water usage, or increased distance when looking in a direction. Those would be good elven traits.

[Riev]

Ooh, yeah!

Dwarves get increases poison resistance and natural defense
elves get high agility and the ability to run for 1mv on city streets

.... Do you see where I'm going with this...

[zztri]

I'd rather have all elves have 'steal'.. Or rather, all city elves have 'steal'.. I'm fairly a newbie so correct me if I'm wrong but desert elves look like they've evolved into something completely different from city elves.

I wouldn't give humans and desert elves any other skills. It doesn't fit anyway and they look pretty advantaged already compared to other races.

Documentation claims dwarves are resistant to magic and are nearly immune to poisons. No skills for them, too.. Magic is scary, based on documentation and even having an ability to have a chance to resist it should be huge.

Half-elves are beetle-whisperers, they have greatly improved ride skill... Riding is useful, so this is useful. I could still accept them having another skill for free. Their roleplay requirements are rather strict.

So to sum up, of course I'm a newbie and the only race I've seen in action yet is the human race, but I'd only give city-elves an additional skill - 'steal', because documentation makes it clear all elves, all of them steal. I would love to have the ability to 'steal' and brag about it even with my well-off elven merchants.

Oh.. Also floristry for half-giants. I don't think I need to explain the logic behind this one at all, it's pretty obvious.

[Riev]

One thing to note, Zztri, is that "stealing" to an elf might not -always- be codedly nicking coin or items.

Sometimes, an elf "steals" by buying someone with wooden coins, or selling an item for -far- more than its worth, etc.

[nauta]

I'm not opposed to tweaks to races, but one thing (to OP) is that, as hinted, there already are racial things.  IIRC all elves do get steal (I think) and there's certainly stat differences.  It's a complicated discussion, and it's more complicated since the racial bonuses aren't spelled out in the documentation in the way the Subguild things are (yet?  I hope these too get spelled out) -- so we just have to kind of guess at them.

[zztri]

One thing to note, Zztri, is that "stealing" to an elf might not -always- be codedly nicking coin or items.

Sometimes, an elf "steals" by buying someone with wooden coins, or selling an item for -far- more than its worth, etc.

Yeah I completely get it. If they trade with you, they swindled you somehow, for example. There's more to stealing than simple petty pickpocketing.

But still, I'd like all city elves to have the physical ability to take stuff from someone else's inventory without them noticing as a RP prop, which could or could not be used by individual characters.

I'm not saying they should have it, but if they're to have an extra skill, I believe it should be steal.

[Lutagar]

what if every playable race got a bonus starting skill at low jman?

Why?

[bardlyone]

The way haggle is coded right now that would offer a huge advantage in coin to humans. While thematically I think that's a perfect fit, but code and in-game economy is pretty broken already. With haggle you'd effectively be buying everything at half price and selling everything for almost double. Plus, a bunch of the subguilds and extended subguilds already offer haggle as one of their features. Are they going to get something else? Or maybe the basic human haggle only goes to apprentice?

I've never seen this be possible with less than advanced or master haggle. Journeyman haggle, you might get a pretty nice discount or sell things for about 20% more than the jumping off price, and that doesn't seem terribly OP. Instead, it (to me) reflects more on the fact that the other races are being short-shrifted and overcharged economically due to a pervasive societal bias. Why? Elves are always trying to trick you anyhow, and stumps and HG are both usually dumber than humans. That's the logic there.

[WanderingOoze]

Oh.. Also floristry for half-giants. I don't think I need to explain the logic behind this one at all, it's pretty obvious.

I'm...missing something here. Why is it obvious?

[Miradus]

... and stumps and HG are both usually dumber than humans. That's the logic there.

From the documentation:

As compared to humans, dwarves are stronger and possess more endurance. Their thick-bodied frames, however, make them generally less agile; and because of the incredible singleness of purpose in the dwarven mind, they are usually somewhat less wise.

Not dumber. More fixed of purpose. That could still equate to not caring if they don't get the best possible deal and being in a hurry to get back to their focus, but dwarves are by no means dumber than humans.  Wisdom is not equal to intelligence. Wisdom could be more akin to the ability to control oneself by not doing things detrimental to one's self interest.

Huh. Such as not debating fictional game species on an online forum. Dang. Hoist on my own petard.

[Patuk]

... City elves already get steal, so uh... Thread dismissed?

Less snarkily, city elves do get both haggle and steal, though only the former is really useful. Even pickpocket at master level is going to fail on you, and c-elves don't get it up that high, innately, so while it's nice for flavor.. I wouldn't rely on it. Ever.

[Lutagar]

... and stumps and HG are both usually dumber than humans. That's the logic there.

From the documentation:

As compared to humans, dwarves are stronger and possess more endurance. Their thick-bodied frames, however, make them generally less agile; and because of the incredible singleness of purpose in the dwarven mind, they are usually somewhat less wise.

Not dumber. More fixed of purpose. That could still equate to not caring if they don't get the best possible deal and being in a hurry to get back to their focus, but dwarves are by no means dumber than humans.  Wisdom is not equal to intelligence. Wisdom could be more akin to the ability to control oneself by not doing things detrimental to one's self interest.

Huh. Such as not debating fictional game species on an online forum. Dang. Hoist on my own petard.

It's really hard for me to believe that wisdom =/= intelligence when the given reason for HG's abysmal wisdom stat is a reflection of their being infamously stupid. If we're willing to accept this is true, then the documentation would imply the average human is smarter than the average dwarf, only the difference in average wits isn't large enough to be hugely noticeable.

[Riev]

Please do not turn this into a HG roleplay thread. Some people see wisdom as an intelligence thing. Others see it as a single-minded vs wandering-mind stat. Yet others think of it as "quick to learn", or "superstitious in the face of evidence" etc.

Honesty, Booger, I don't think Racial Skills would go very far. Most races get bonuses from race, or height, or otherwise.

[Hauwke]

If we give the races skills, imo it should be:
Humans: Haggle. To indicate as someone said the fact that folks respect humans more.
Elves: hide, but not sneak. To demonstrate that they are physically weak but their mind is sharp as a obsidian razor (supposedly)
HGs: subdue because even a stupid guy with that big of a hand can grab a guy by the face and not let go.
Dwarves and muls: Bash to well display the fact they can simply shove you down with their shear muscle.

[manipura]

Oh.. Also floristry for half-giants. I don't think I need to explain the logic behind this one at all, it's pretty obvious.

I'm...missing something here. Why is it obvious?

No worries, if it's something obvious I'm missing it too.

[Molten Heart]

.

[Feco]

I don't think half-giants should get subdue.  I suspect subdue takes into account at least size, and maybe weight and strength.  If that's true, I suspect half-giants are already plenty good at it.

Some races already get racial skills.  I dunno if we need to add any more.

[bardlyone]

If we give the races skills, imo it should be:
Humans: Haggle. To indicate as someone said the fact that folks respect humans more.
Elves: hide, but not sneak. To demonstrate that they are physically weak but their mind is sharp as a obsidian razor (supposedly)
HGs: subdue because even a stupid guy with that big of a hand can grab a guy by the face and not let go.
Dwarves and muls: Bash to well display the fact they can simply shove you down with their shear muscle.

I'd be on board w/this. Though tbh I wouldn't mind all elves getting steal, sneak, and hide. Elves need some love to help balance out their playability issues. I think they already have a racial ability to steal, but making every elf able to (at least journeyman) sneak and hide, would to me only make sense, because with a culture that reveres theivery, people not able to make an effective escape, usually through disappearing into a crowd and getting away, I don't think they'd last long.

[lostinspace]

Perhaps the solution to this is to ask staff if they can update Race help files in the same way they updated subguild help files. A little blurb about what each race brings to the table codedly, to follow the themes of the race.

[Reiloth]

Perhaps the solution to this is to ask staff if they can update Race help files in the same way they updated subguild help files. A little blurb about what each race brings to the table codedly, to follow the themes of the race.

This.