Combat Roles within Armageddon - Limited Choices, or is there?

[Ath]

So I was chatting a bit on trying to come up with new combat roles within Arm, and I will be honest... I'm really falling short here.  To me, the main roles that seem interesting would just be Hunter and Mercenary, that's about it.  I know there are others out there, Soldier within the Arm of the Dragon, the Kuraci Fist, but really... those have pretty key roles they fit.  Outside of that, what is there?  There is also the Desert Elves, there are Combat Roles there.  I realize that with the changes to Hunters within the GMHs, that has "moved" the role, not really removed it.  Hunter is still an option, just outside the GMHs is all.

Of course I know some will say reopen House Tor and bring back the Scorpions, and well, that is an idea, but there is a problem there.  Stagnation and boredom.  While yes, I would love to make plots for them to do, that takes a dedicated resource to keep that going and well, honestly... I don't think we should be the only source of "Fun" for a role.  Tor was often used a Mercenaries, and well... that isn't their role.  What is their Role then?  Well... that's the issue, they were Officers for Wars, something that doesn't happen that often, so most of the time, players would get bored.

Boredom... that is the evil entity that causes issue with most combat roles outside of the ones we currently have.  Well, my hope is to talk about ideas that could make for other combat roles.  We can talk about existing clans, new organizations, or whatever really.  I've tossed around ideas of new MMHs, maybe Nenyuk is opened and uses a combat role as muscle, or House Tor is reopened.  The main thing we have to think of is how to combat the boredom and how to keep the role interesting.  Or maybe, is this not really an issue?  Should we let the players run with it and create their own fun?

Lend me your thoughts and ideas on this.  How do we keep other combat roles interesting?  Maybe you have a new clan idea?  (Remember, the Player Clan structure could also be used with this to make an MMH at some point.)  What clans/organization could be reopened or made non-virtual?  (Disclaimer:  Don't go into heavy IC detail if possible, stick with documented clans and organizations.)  These ideas don't necessarily have to come from Allanak specifically.

[Lizzie]

What about the combat equivalent of a Quartermaster? To expound:

Quartermaster is responsible for the upkeep of the barracks and upkeep of supplies. Also the paymaster, and ration-keeper.

For combat - it'd be a single PC employed by any clan that has use for hunters - but doesn't hire the hunters as clanned members. This PC is responsible for coordinating safe passage of his clan (field trips needing the Byn, or walks outside the gate for grebbing expeditions, etc). She is also responsible for ensuring that the crafters/whoever elses have the supplies/materials they need, whether that means to go out and get it herself, or hire grebbers for specific projects on the clan's behalf, etc. etc.

It's sort of like a field aide for clans, but with more *direct* responsibility for the members of the clan they're in. They don't just go out and get stuff, or go out and hire the Byn to get stuff. They are more involved in their clan members daily activities, plus they can even be the Quartermaster and keep the clan compounds organized. But they can ALSO go out and get stuff, because they are combat-oriented characters. They can ALSO help their clanmates with self-defense by leading them in sparring in the sparring rings, or directing them in riding instructions, for example.

It'd be a great option for people who want to play "socializing ranger" types.

[Lutagar]

Dedicated raiding clan. Plssssss.

Everyone would have more to do if there were one.

[Lizzie]

Dedicated raiding clan. Plssssss.

Everyone would have more to do if there were one.

RF4L

Red Fangs 4 Lyfe
\-0-/

[Synthesis]

If you're looking for the source of combat-role boredom, looking at clan structure and function isn't the right place to start.

The place to start is the ridiculous grind you have to go through just to achieve mediocrity as a warrior, and the despair-inducing death march to above-averageness.  I have 4 months in on this PC, and I've branched from one warrior skill.  I've been stuck at (advanced) on my primary weapon skill for like...2 months now.  It's absurd.

[Barsook]

I agree with Synthesis, it's the grind that is always getting me and that grind equals boredom to the point that nowadays I don't want to play any combat-type of roles.  I seem to enjoy the social roles because I don't even need to think about using my active skills (for example: slashing weapons) but my passive skills (for example: the watch and listen skills) along with my roleplay skills (for example: thinks, feels, and emotes).  Yes, I may have played only one PC after the code change but still that grind is a no win for me.

Perhaps, as Lizzie stated, an quartermaster role that isn't that combat heavy is also needed for those who want to be social but want the grind for the skills.  Maybe this role doesn't need to have to stick to the clan schedule where some days they can take a break and organize the barracks or run errans while that player is logged in.  Or bring back the clerk role in AoD for the same reason.

[Miradus]

I don't think you're talking about combat roles. Every role is potentially a combat role.

I think you're talking specifically about militarized roles.

Being in the military is 99% boring. That's just the way it is. That 1% is crazy freaky scary (and exciting, if I'm honest) but it's seriously not the majority of the time.

The game world is absent of conflict. There's no siege going on or open warfare.

I would like to see a mounted tribe from beyond the edges of the Known making raids into our world. Small armed parties of humans that roam about the game map in varying sized groups. They're hostile, of course.

Then the Kuraci Fist would have a reason to patrol the road. Allanak government could pay the Byn to conduct "sweeps" of nearby territory to make sure there are none nearby.

Even if a patrol doesn't come across them, it still draws them out of the barracks more. In terms of lore, it would expand the game universe so that there's a feeling of "something out there beyond the Known". It could even be expanded into larger plots to capture a prisoner or attack a fortified raider position somewhere out there. If the prospect of mounted raiders doesn't appeal, then it could be pirates or a hostile empire arriving in skimmers from across the silt sea.                     

Minimal work to do. Create some mobs, string them, drop them somewhere periodically. Let players do the rest.

Unless you're willing to re-open Tuluk, stir up open warfare with the greater merchant houses, or launch strikes to free Red Storm East from the giants then you are going to have to create something. In lore terms, closing the only other potentially antagonistic power of Allanak is going to result in an enormously decreased need for militarized roles.

[nauta]

I'd like to see (and be able to play) an enemy, both global and local. 

For instance, you could have:

1. Tuluki Clan (global enemy)
2. Akei Ta'Var (local enemy within the Grey / old Tan Muarki lands)
3. Some Mantis Valley / Outpost Clan (local enemy over there)
4. Anyali (local enemy in the Grasslands)
5. Twin Moons (local enemy in the Vrun)
6. Red Fangs (local enemy in Canyon of Waste)

I find it hard to find any motivation for attacking someone for doing stupid stuff or being in the wrong place (e.g., gemmed dancing around near Tuluk).

Some people don't like the 'territorial' roles (such as SLK); some people do.

With (1-5), the roles wouldn't just be antagonistic -- there would be trade, etc. involved too.  But there would be motivation for attacking someone in your swamp -- thus creating fear and RP opportunities -- peace treaties, etc.

[Riev]

I've been stuck at (advanced) on my primary weapon skill for like...2 months now.  It's absurd.

Everytime I send in a report, I mention that my primary weapon skill hasn't gone up. I'm pretty sure my Staffer thinks it was funny... 5 reports ago...


I want to expound more later, but for now I'll say this:

A raiding clan with a semi-dedicated staff to oversee it not being "raiding for raiding's sake" might be a start, but it won't fix the issue. Right now there are only three ways to be "combative".

1. Versus Mob Beasts - Getting materials and resources for other people to make coin off of.
2. Versus Mob NPCs - Usually gets you an item/equipment that isn't craftable. Unique look, also for coins off equipment.
3. Versus PCs - The "meat" of a combative role, but once you're see as someone who attacks other PCs, you have 2 RL days before everyone targets you just to feed off the "something to do".

With staff assistance, these become a bit different. Mantis attacking Luir's. Gith attacking Allanak. Plague of Rats that needs to be culled. Tribe of humans that becomes de-virtualized and needs killing.

However, unless staff have time and resources, you're basically relegated to the three.

[Ath]

Dedicated raiding clan. Plssssss.

Everyone would have more to do if there were one.

The Soh Lanah Kah are technically partial raiding clan, but I have actually thought on this idea before.

[tortall]

What about the combat equivalent of a Quartermaster?

I really like this. This is how I previously used hunters in clans. The crafters and merchants told them what was needed, and they got it. I love the addition of employing  additional people not canned food some extra stuff.

[Riev]

Dedicated raiding clan. Plssssss.

Everyone would have more to do if there were one.

The Soh Lanah Kah are technically partial raiding clan, but I have actually thought on this idea before.

Just saying that if there WERE to be a more-focused raiding clan, I would want to see changes to the way archery works, first.

2 PCs with high archery (which isn't THAT hard to come by) can take down a group three times their size because of low delay, high movement delay, and inability to block incoming missiles with a shield at a certain point.

[bardlyone]

I think?

Open back up the Wyverns, but with the focus on them as basically free gladiators/bloodball players/etc for Borsail. For the past 6+months, the nobility there has had a lot of focus on the Arena in a way that is awesome, and I feel like having that tied in would be great. Especially if they tied into regular PC SPONSORED RPTs, that the past handful of nobility there have been pushing.

And maybe even work it like the trials that they had a while back where you have to qualify through X, Y, and Z tests/whatever, before you are 'invited' to this role. I dunno. That's just me. And it works with a clan that is both already open and has reason to invest in combat capable pcs as part of their ongoing (and recentish prior ongoing) plots.

The bonus to the having to pass whatever tasks/tests, is that they would ideally be X level of combat capable before even qualifying for it to be a thing. And just like Borsail Slave Gladiators, you'd have Borsail Elite/Wyvern/Champion/Free Gladiators, consistent with an already existing function (gladiator) of an already open clan.

[Ath]

Also, i think people get stuck up on skills way too much.  To this day I have had plenty of fun characters that were in combat roles where I didn't get stuck up on my combat skills and having to "grind".  This topic isn't about skills, so lets get off that please.  I realize there is a grind to get to a "good point" but I also think it can be apart of the role itself.

[Barsook]

I think?

Open back up the Wyverns, but with the focus on them as basically free gladiators/bloodball players/etc for Borsail. For the past 6+months, the nobility there has had a lot of focus on the Arena in a way that is awesome, and I feel like having that tied in would be great. Especially if they tied into regular PC SPONSORED RPTs, that the past handful of nobility there have been pushing.

And maybe even work it like the trials that they had a while back where you have to qualify through X, Y, and Z tests/whatever, before you are 'invited' to this role. I dunno. That's just me. And it works with a clan that is both already open and has reason to invest in combat capable pcs as part of their ongoing (and recentish prior ongoing) plots.

The bonus to the having to pass whatever tasks/tests, is that they would ideally be X level of combat capable before even qualifying for it to be a thing. And just like Borsail Slave Gladiators, you'd have Borsail Elite/Wyvern/Champion/Free Gladiators, consistent with an already existing function (gladiator) of an already open clan.

+1 on Wyverns as I thinking the same but also as a beastmaster for beasts for the Arena.

[Ath]

Those are some interesting ideas.  I like the idea of a Raiding Clan, but these take a lot of staff insight because well... some people just get really PK happy... which isn't always a bad thing, but we want to keep up with the RP.  Then there is the case where the entire PC side of the clan gets killed off and then staff has to work on rebuilding it.

The Bloodbowl/Gladiator ideas are interesting, might be something to look at.  I mean, if you could join a clan that was all about being Gladiators, and your character could die in the Arena, would you do it?  The big thing with the Arena IMO is that PCs should die.

[nauta]

Dedicated raiding clan. Plssssss.

Everyone would have more to do if there were one.

The Soh Lanah Kah are technically partial raiding clan, but I have actually thought on this idea before.

Just saying that if there WERE to be a more-focused raiding clan, I would want to see changes to the way archery works, first.

2 PCs with high archery (which isn't THAT hard to come by) can take down a group three times their size because of low delay, high movement delay, and inability to block incoming missiles with a shield at a certain point.

It is true that only two or three PCs can suddenly make an area offlimits to others.  This is probably why raiding clans need to be monitored closely and/or have limitations (territorial) set on them.

That said: can't the people getting shot at just run away?

[Riev]

They can run away, but that ends the conflict. A dozen PCs effectively shooed away from combat because of a single skill that could kill them all before they ever type in "kill".


Arena roles are always interesting, so long as they are balanced, and you don't just continue to pit that one PC against more and more shit until they die. Maybe like UFC-style... once an in game month or so they participate in one round, against a similarly skilled opponent. Sometimes its a PC, sometimes it isn't.

[Narf]

To add to the talk about raiding clans, I think it'd be fun to create a clan of more expendable sorts of characters that people could dip into for a couple days/weeks/months until they inevitably died by creating a clan that works mechanically with a high mortality rate.

People that could dip in and play an antagonistic gith for a month might really spice up travel between the north and the south, but it'd only be fun if they started from a dangerous level of skills (possibly with the trade-off that they'd have lower caps on their combat skills). This would create a class of high-risk taking PCs to make the world more dangerous both for themselves and for others in an intelligent way.

If you wanted to make gladiatorial combat more dangerous, you could also run things the same way for gladiators.

[Synthesis]

Also, i think people get stuck up on skills way too much.  To this day I have had plenty of fun characters that were in combat roles where I didn't get stuck up on my combat skills and having to "grind".  This topic isn't about skills, so lets get off that please.  I realize there is a grind to get to a "good point" but I also think it can be apart of the role itself.

This thread is pointless, then.

The problem is what it is.  You can't simply wish away human psychology.

[bardlyone]

The big thing with the Arena IMO is that PCs should die.

I'm not so much quibbling that they shouldn't die, but more instead that there should be only a CHANCE that they will die. Unless you are thrown in the Arena to be basically sacrificed for the crowd. Perhaps my own perceptions of what the Arena is sway too much toward a roman sensibility, but gladiators didn't die nearly as often in the ACTUAL historical arena games, nearly as often as people think. In part because if you kill off all your people, it's basically unskilled idiots swinging sticks to no avail. But in a more practical sense in the game world specifically, mulish and other specifically gladiator slaves, would not really make much sense from an analysis of cost vs reward ratio. Why sink tens or hundreds of thousands into champion bred, raised from birth, gladiator slaves, if they die so quickly? Sure, at the beginning of their implementation, gladiatorial combatants were little more than human sacrifice, but by the time Rome was an actual imperial power, it was much more like pro wrestling, with costumes, sets, and neither opponent having to die. My own perspective on the arena is shaped pretty highly by the ancient roman arena, and a good source to encapsulate that is here: http://knowledgenuts.com/2013/12/26/roman-gladiators-didnt-die-in-the-arena-as-often-as-you-think/ - I'm not sure how that stands up to your perceptions or thoughts on it, because I never meant to imply that pcs shouldn't be able to die, so I'm not sure if you're suggesting that they should die more than they did in the Free Gladiator competitions (which I thought did a bang up job of representing stuff how I always pictured the arena would/should/did function in vnpc land), or like, every time, or what. Not trying to derail, but am genuinely curious.

[nauta]

To add to the talk about raiding clans, I think it'd be fun to create a clan of more expendable sorts of characters that people could dip into for a couple days/weeks/months until they inevitably died by creating a clan that works mechanically with a high mortality rate.

People that could dip in and play an antagonistic gith for a month might really spice up travel between the north and the south, but it'd only be fun if they started from a dangerous level of skills (possibly with the trade-off that they'd have lower caps on their combat skills). This would create a class of high-risk taking PCs to make the world more dangerous both for themselves and for others in an intelligent way.

If you wanted to make gladiatorial combat more dangerous, you could also run things the same way for gladiators.

This is more or less what the PC gith was.

I'm curious: Staff, can you expand on why the gith PCs didn't work out as expected? 

Or, in more general terms, why the various antagonist roles from history (most are before my time) were put to rest:

1. Tan Muarki.
2. Red Fangs.
3. ATV (in their newest incarnation as more antagonistic).
4. Sorcerors.

Perhaps there are lessons in there we could work through. (ETA: I mean, there might be IC reasons behind the Red Fangs losing or whatever, but I'm more interested in structural worries -- if there aren't structural worries, then once antagonist clan dies out/plays its course after a couple RL years, pop open a new one.)

Also: I'd love to play a gortok.

[Miradus]

Also, i think people get stuck up on skills way too much.  To this day I have had plenty of fun characters that were in combat roles where I didn't get stuck up on my combat skills and having to "grind".  This topic isn't about skills, so lets get off that please.  I realize there is a grind to get to a "good point" but I also think it can be apart of the role itself.

This thread is pointless, then.

The problem is what it is.  You can't simply wish away human psychology.

I watch my skill list as much as anyone and I'd even put my skills on my prompt bar if I could, but ultimately I found that they mattered less than I thought they did. When I hit journeyman I was able to kill most everything I ran into (that I could reasonably be expected to kill). 5 desert tarantulas? No problem. The issue was going to be running into a player who had been more twinkier than I had been and wasn't really interested in anything other than adding a pk notch to their belt. And I just tried to be ready to run if that happened.

With a combat character at about 10 days played you're going to be able to enjoy most of the game content while still minimizing your risk.

The problem I found as a combat-focused character was that there was crap all else to do. Spar in the circle a little while or go out and kill something tough and then sit around staring at the virtual horizon for a while. In a year or so of playing I've only ever had ONE event that count be considered a typical dungeon crawl (and that was only made possible by a fabulous, creative storyteller).

So I don't feel the issue is that it takes too long to be able to enjoy the game content. It's that there's a lack of game content for that specific role.

ETA: I would play a gortok with nauta in a heartbeat. Or a kryl. I absolutely love monstrous roles.

[Ath]

Also, i think people get stuck up on skills way too much.  To this day I have had plenty of fun characters that were in combat roles where I didn't get stuck up on my combat skills and having to "grind".  This topic isn't about skills, so lets get off that please.  I realize there is a grind to get to a "good point" but I also think it can be apart of the role itself.

This thread is pointless, then.

The problem is what it is.  You can't simply wish away human psychology.

If you think that way, then don't participate.  Either way, thanks for the feedback.

[WarriorPoet]

Reopen Scorpions but make PC roles more Academy oriented. Outsource specialized training to AoD, noble houses, Atrium attendees, etc.

Honestly, without a 'big bad guy' to focus on, pure combat and soldiering roles are hard to sit through unless it's Byn, and even Byn can be misery unless the work is steady.

As for what to do to keep it interesting in combat roles: Start some shit. Let's get hateful.

[Barsook]

What we need is conflict/enemies before we reopen certain clans.

EDIT: That was dumb, wasn't it?

[whitt]

That said: can't the people getting shot at just run away?

I know this is a derail and I'll apologize in advance - but, oh do I loathe the archery code.

So with that disclaimer.  The answer to this question? Is almost without exception.  No.

So let's say you're out and about doing your thing.  Your brain is wrapped up in skinning a kill, waying your buddy, chatting with your hunting partner.  In short, you the player are thinking about anything but insta-fleeing some guy on a beetle with a .50 caliber sniper rifle.

Mid skinning attempt or, if they're very clever, just as you start fighting a critter.  An arrow flies in from the west and strikes your PC in the head.

By the time your brain processes that you've just been shot for > 50% of your hp, the archer has already reloaded and is firing again.  A second shot to the head and you are dead.  That's 75% of interaction with "Raiders" with bows.

The next 20% of the time?  That first arrow had Perraine or Heramide.

So yeah, barring the two above situations?  The right response is spam enter move commands until you're back inside the nearest quitsafe place (which is not the right RP response).  Unfortunately?  The folks with the bow are probably watching you before they start shooting, waiting until you are dismounted so you can't run (End) to the nearest safeplace, and then just... shoot you again, while you try to bandage.

Oh... or you make it, this time.  And they bring two archers the next time - as mentioned.  Archery code is dumb - Riev isn't wrong.

[Riev]

Byn/Arm/Legions/Militaristic clans end up being boring without conflict. And they aren't (to me) DESIGNED to be the PC-to-PC conflict resolution. They're the clans you roll up into because staff are going to load up a scenario that ISN'T a PC conflict that you have to try and resolve.

That's how I've always seen it, even when that certainly is NOT how it happens. You want PC conflict resolution? Join a Merchant House, or the Guild. You want to defend against a horde of gith? You better be in the Byn or the Arm because nobody wants a Kadian Hunter on the front lines.

The move away from staff-sponsored plots killed the militaristic/combative role in the game. I hate to be so blunt, but that's exactly what it did. PCs rarely get the Arm of the Dragon involved in their petty squabbles, and even if they do it doesn't make much sense in the gameworld FOR them to.

[Jingo]

I tend to think as "combat roles" as a sphere more than a collections roles. The game has three to four spheres that overlap, Social, Combat, Magick and possibly Criminal. Players that leave the city (including entering the labyrinth) will be expected to fight or avoid fighting something at some point. Wilderness play is always going to be combat oriented.

Assassins are kind of a hybrid between Social, Combat and Criminal. I think the combat grind has the worst effect on them. Partly because the binary test for a successful assassination requires such a high skill threshold and partly because until they can pass that test, they need to play the role of a subpar mercenary or hunter.

As far as finding a way to add new and different ways to enjoy combat in the game? Just think of what players can do while they're out and about in the wilderness. I can think of a metric assload of ideas. But they all require either additional code or staff support.

Scout Prospector: Scouts a location for raw materials that can be extracted.
Scout Outrider: Scouts out the movement and troop strength of Gith, Mantis, Tuluki Forces etc.
Caravan Guard: Guards Caravans
Privateer: Raids Caravans (different from "gimme your boots" raider)
Bounty Hunter: Brings criminals to justice from outside the gates. (Not just PC's)

[whitt]

Byn/Arm/Legions/Militaristic clans end up being boring without conflict. And they aren't (to me) DESIGNED to be the PC-to-PC conflict resolution. They're the clans you roll up into because staff are going to load up a scenario that ISN'T a PC conflict that you have to try and resolve.

That's how I've always seen it, even when that certainly is NOT how it happens. You want PC conflict resolution? Join a Merchant House, or the Guild. You want to defend against a horde of gith? You better be in the Byn or the Arm because nobody wants a Kadian Hunter on the front lines.

+1 to the above.  Without staff driven NPC heavy opposition the military clans stagnate.  When there is an NPC opponent (Gith, Raider plot, Spiders, Flying Spiders, Trouble in the sewers) these clans are a blast.

Beyond that I think the larger topic already mentioned is that there's no "enemy" to fight with Tuluk gone.  Kurac lost the motivation to keep the North Road clear with Tuluk closed.  The DEs never really had a strong opponent to the best of my knowledge (clear exception being the recent plotline).  Find a new focus for the three/four/five clans in play first.  That might be enough to fix the perceived issue.

[Refugee]

Re:  Gladiators

People don't want to put in the time to grind for death matches in the arena.  You get a lot of talk on the GDB about how we should do this, but when Borsail PCs try to hire gladiators for to-the-death fights it's proven very difficult.

I agree, open up the Wyverns.  The Borsail noble PCs' power has been hampered in game since they were closed.  Theoretically they remain very powerful, but in fact, how other actually powerful PCs react to them in game has changed a great deal because they have to pay to get anything done, instead of ordering it done.  And in reality, in this game money doesn't have the power it should have.

Borsail NPCs would think of things for the Wyverns to do, and Wyvern leaders could take their crews out hunting for training purposes.  They could also perform as gladiators and bloodball players.

[WithSprinkles]

I think everyone should get flee. Even if it's at different levels, people can turn tail and accurately make like a bastard for the horizon if they are being attacked. And if we're talking about balancing classes a bit, others can (and are) speaking on that with much more conviction, experience and authority, but I believe that everyone should have at least one weapon skill. Instead of one guild being, "I'm squishy and if you hit me, coins fall out."

Back fully to the topic though, I like Narf's idea of having the equivalent of "Red Shirts" that we can play temporarily to promote conflict. It would keep things fresh and you never knowing if that one chalton in that herd was going to try and face roll you.

I've been part of successful (and painfully, woefully unsuccessful) expeditions before. I kinda feel that it's about putting yourself out there and being open to possibilities, story lines and conflict. If you're bored, try not to be. If your character sees an issue that bugs them, have them do something about it. If you do, you'd be surprised how many people are willing to throw in their sword and their axe and their bow, etc.

As for what those up top can do (the GMs) .. open possibilities up for antagonism in game and let people run with them to their natural conclusions. If you start some political stuff with Tuluk, for example, that culminates in Nak picking up and marching in that direction, let us skirmish in the sands and use that "Red Shirt" proposal to fill out both sides of the conflict. If civil war starts to tear apart the city, enact martial law and curfews that are enforced by the AOD. See THAT situation explode. Rumors of PVE with increased spawn rates, artifact caches, treasure hunt rumors and exotic, dangerous beasts are a draw. Or an item uncovered that is a remnant of lost technology. A dangerous magic remnant that infuses the land with its effects and needs to be destroyed. Stuff like that.

[650Booger]

Instead of one guild being, "I'm squishy and if you hit me, coins fall out."

To be fair, everybody DOES codedly get combat skills, even if not a specific weapon skill.

[Ath]

So... conflict is needed.  I get that.  I've been mulling this one over in my head.  I do have to agree... if there is combat to be had, combat roles will be interesting.  There is going to be downtime for certain...  wars don't happen all the time, but conflict of an environmental nature can also happen.

[Barsook]

As in hunting, or what?

[650Booger]

Lets reopen Tuluk!  pleaseohplease?

it closed before I started playing and even -I- feel the loss of it.

[Miradus]

As in hunting, or what?

Rangers gonna range. Warriors gonna war. Burglars gonna burgle.

I like (as a warrior) fighting gith. It's more epic than killing gortok. I would be pretty pleased if there were more NPC humanoid mobs scattered about to kill. That doesn't really address the issue of "plots" but it's something.

[Barsook]

Lets reopen Tuluk!  pleaseohplease?
[Snip] -I- feel the loss of it.

[wizturbo]

Ath, I'll send you something via the request tool on this. 

The TLDR version for everyone mirrors a lot of other comments though:

1.  Combat roles don't really have a lot of combat in them.  The post about 1% vs. 99% is accurate, and should be.

2.  Fake combat, in the form of games, is the way that many societies have dealt with this problem while still maintaining a lot of fighting types.

3.  We should be focusing on fake combat as the place to fill the 99%, as everyone can still enjoy the 1% situations as they arise.

[Molten Heart]

Wrong thread

[Ath]

Ath, I'll send you something via the request tool on this. 

The TLDR version for everyone mirrors a lot of other comments though:

1.  Combat roles don't really have a lot of combat in them.  The post about 1% vs. 99% is accurate, and should be.

2.  Fake combat, in the form of games, is the way that many societies have dealt with this problem while still maintaining a lot of fighting types.

3.  We should be focusing on fake combat as the place to fill the 99%, as everyone can still enjoy the 1% situations as they arise.

Fake combat... like the Arena, but no one wants to risk their character in the arena.

[Riev]

Ath, I'll send you something via the request tool on this. 

The TLDR version for everyone mirrors a lot of other comments though:

1.  Combat roles don't really have a lot of combat in them.  The post about 1% vs. 99% is accurate, and should be.

2.  Fake combat, in the form of games, is the way that many societies have dealt with this problem while still maintaining a lot of fighting types.

3.  We should be focusing on fake combat as the place to fill the 99%, as everyone can still enjoy the 1% situations as they arise.

Fake combat... like the Arena, but no one wants to risk their character in the arena.

I think it may be a mistake for the Arena to be FATAL and bloody. The Arena can still be bloody, and gory, but not always end in death. That's for criminals. You can have a brutally good warrior fight, with neither side wanting to give in. Until one is downed and needs medics and a month of recuperation, or until their Borsail Master says "I'm done with that one" and okays the death.

Even if people DID want to risk their characters (because you BETTER have some sort of compensation beyond PC Noble #2522 is pleased), warrior on warrior combat is BORING. Parries and blocks like woah. And if it isn't two warriors, the warrior will probably win.

This is where games come in fun, but as an Arena WATCHER, sometimes its impossible to know whats going on outside of the announcer who has to be a fucking SportsCenter professional just to convey the action.

[Ath]

Tuluk is another conversation, maybe one we'll have in the future.  Trust me, it's on the minds of a lot of staff members also.  Tuluk at the moment though won't create stuff for Combat roles to do.

The issue with Wars and setting up things on the staff side is that typically...  we put in a lot of effort, for a very short period of return.  I had an idea though... this may seem kinda "Gamey" but, it's a concept.  What if a threat would present itself, let's say there is a Silt Horror mating season, and it's causing all sorts of havoc on Red Storm.  We create an object that will be 100% skin on Silt Horrors, said object is then just turned in, no reward for turning it in at this time.  We can track the turn ins.  The effort is that in period of time enough of these turn ins happen, a result happens.  Silt Horrors back down...  but if they don't get enough turn ins, they swarm the docks and Spice Sifters stop sifting, which then cuts into Kuraci supply and prices of Spice go up.

What if we did something where we didn't have to "control" every aspect of it... and rewards can still be giving out by staff for effort.  Call it more of an Automated Plot.  Kurac may see the problem and work to resolve it by hiring the Byn. Enterprising Indies might take it upon themselves to try to clear the issue.  All staff has to do is setup the NPC turn in point, setup spawns of Silt Horrors, maybe a bit of randomization, and then setup the Silt Horrors to have the turn in token.  We can control a lot of these aspects... so we can tweak as needed.

Would this be too gamey?  More MMORPG-ish, or do you think this could create a plot and activity for Combat Roles?

[Ath]

Ath, I'll send you something via the request tool on this. 

The TLDR version for everyone mirrors a lot of other comments though:

1.  Combat roles don't really have a lot of combat in them.  The post about 1% vs. 99% is accurate, and should be.

2.  Fake combat, in the form of games, is the way that many societies have dealt with this problem while still maintaining a lot of fighting types.

3.  We should be focusing on fake combat as the place to fill the 99%, as everyone can still enjoy the 1% situations as they arise.

Fake combat... like the Arena, but no one wants to risk their character in the arena.

I think it may be a mistake for the Arena to be FATAL and bloody. The Arena can still be bloody, and gory, but not always end in death. That's for criminals. You can have a brutally good warrior fight, with neither side wanting to give in. Until one is downed and needs medics and a month of recuperation, or until their Borsail Master says "I'm done with that one" and okays the death.

Even if people DID want to risk their characters (because you BETTER have some sort of compensation beyond PC Noble #2522 is pleased), warrior on warrior combat is BORING. Parries and blocks like woah. And if it isn't two warriors, the warrior will probably win.

This is where games come in fun, but as an Arena WATCHER, sometimes its impossible to know whats going on outside of the announcer who has to be a fucking SportsCenter professional just to convey the action.

What if we put in a coded item within the Arena to make it so that there is less risk of death?  Maybe the IC standpoint is that there are medics on hand to stop wounds, but there will still be a risk they fail.  Also, what if we had a way to slow combat in the arena down so that the spam wasn't so quick and it let people put in emotes easier?

[Miradus]

It's absolutely a good idea, but it's not specific to warriors. It's hunting on a different scale.

You could do the exact same thing with kryl coming out of the forest and attacking Morin's.

Are staff adverse to humanoid NPC's in some way that I'm not aware of? Because your idea of the silt horrors is similar to my idea of silt pirates.

[Ath]

It's absolutely a good idea, but it's not specific to warriors. It's hunting on a different scale.

You could do the exact same thing with kryl coming out of the forest and attacking Morin's.

Are staff adverse to humanoid NPC's in some way that I'm not aware of? Because your idea of the silt horrors is similar to my idea of silt pirates.

Not at all, it was just the first idea that came to mind.  The issue with humanoid NPCs that have the ability to under and speak back, staff likes being able to RP responses with.  Though I guess that could be done in other ways.  Also, it's not hunting really... as well, you're still killing a threat and the object to be skinned drops 100% of the time so anyone can get it.  Now if some entrepreneurial Indie group also worked on buying up all of that Silt Horror shell, and then say sold it all to Salarr, prices for Silt Horror armor could drop.  The idea is going to be cause and effect.  Kill too many Silt Horrors, then well...  we reduce their spawn rate.  Kill too few, they overrun areas.  No one kills any, maybe they start causing even worse issues.

[John]

The place to start is the ridiculous grind you have to go through just to achieve mediocrity as a warrior, and the despair-inducing death march to above-averageness.  I have 4 months in on this PC, and I've branched from one warrior skill.  I've been stuck at (advanced) on my primary weapon skill for like...2 months now.  It's absurd.

See, I think the attitude that you've spent 2 IC years and expect to have branched an advance weapon skill to be absurd. Then again, you admit to blatantly grinding your skills until you get to what you consider above mediocrity. So I guess 4 months of grinding would get boring. Of course, the easy solution of not grinding nonstop is available, but one I doubt you would go for.

The biggest problem I see is not having big bags, and the attitude you must be this skilled to do interesting things. Some of this game's most enjoyable moments come from being in way over your head. That happens less if people take the "must grind before playing my charactrr" attitude. I don't know how to fix that though, except to call people out when they propagate the idea.

If you want player run initiatives for raiding clans (or Magick error enemy clans) the game needs more quit rooms in the wilderness. They were removed to force people into the cities, which worked to a degree, but at the expense of power bases getting built up to be antagonists for city players.

[nauta]

Automation sounds like a lot more work, but I like the direction -- I don't really like the quest-reward part of it.  It feels too gamey and not enough story-telly.

You could do the silt horror thing with minimal work, though.  Just load up a few silt horrors now and then, drop a hint from an NPC to Kurac that these silt horrors are a problem, and voila.

Or a rantarri on the loose in the north.

I think the biggest 'problem' to work out would be to supply realistic motivations.  Take the gith war, for instance, or the gryzzak bugs.  There wasn't any motivation for others to come into the tablelands hunting the gith.  Or with the gryzzak, there wasn't much motivation to go out and kill them (that I saw) -- other than the motivation to kill something.

That said, I much prefer intelligent opponents.  Second, would be NPCs with cool scripts: the gith and the kryl come to mind.  Hunting in the Grey or travelling through the gith territories is always an exciting experience.  But, again, there's little motivation to do so.

[Riev]

I think the "Automated" quests aren't a terrible idea, especially since you could set them up in various parts of the world. Don't -tell- people its happened, just an extra NPC in Morin's that occasionally mutters about "those damn gortoks" and, on a discuss topics script, tells you he really wants their skulls (or whatever, etc).

Not only would it be a "quest" to find out who wants the item, but staff can kind of set it and forget it. Players will love it initially, then stop caring about them, then staff has a reason to say "You didn't cull the bull duskhorns during mating season, and now they're rampaging across the scrub, eating up all the plants, forcing gurth into hiding" etc.

[Molten Heart]

More gith and other bad guys to fight through when traveling would create a place for combat types. Also making wagons more vulnerable to NPCs and PC raiders so they require some form of protection when they encounter these kinds of threats. Also, create reasons to travel and ways for combat types to be involved.

[Armaddict]

Lend me your thoughts and ideas on this.  How do we keep other combat roles interesting?  Maybe you have a new clan idea?  (Remember, the Player Clan structure could also be used with this to make an MMH at some point.)  What clans/organization could be reopened or made non-virtual?  (Disclaimer:  Don't go into heavy IC detail if possible, stick with documented clans and organizations.)  These ideas don't necessarily have to come from Allanak specifically.

I, of course, say open all of them, but that's with one caveat staff-side: If you open clans (as you should in my opinion, as stated), come in with less of a plot-oriented mentality of making big projects for them to see to, and more of an antagonist-provision base.  With this in mind, House Tor would actually probably be the last clan to open, rather than the first.  Some examples:

Oash Elite
--Oash is typically pragmatic, willing to obstruct the city for personal gain.
--Oashi interests are money, the study and control of magick, and external control of land suitable for agriculture
(edit:)--Oashi Elite are specialized soldiers that focus on investigation, discovery, observation, and quick removal of dangerous ungemmed/unnatural enemies, as well as protecting their nobles from foreign interests (assassins).
--Oashi antagonists are ungemmed mages, groups strong enough or dedicated enough to destroy Oashi holdings, and obstructionists.

Tor Scorpions
--Typically loyalist, as House Tor's success is directly correlated with expansion and success of the city.
--Tor interests are military prestige and involvement, the top of the food chain in strategy, and small expansion of infrastructure in the interest of claiming involvement in defense of the city and its assets.
(edit:)--Tor Scorpions are politically savvy, disciplined soldiers concerned as much with appearance as effectiveness, knowledgeable of geography, how code works in combat, and comfortable with lecture-like instruction and leadership.
--Tor antagonists are anti-allanak groups strong enough to challenge city holdings, more skilled/as skilled of strategists offering training, and obstructionists to Tor goals.

Breaking apart each opened clan into these categories for inspection show a couple characteristics.  They don't need a lot of PC's to carry out their goals, so long as they're specialized.  They don't have a constant role in the game, but have constant interests to watch out for and further, often to the detriment of other houses or in competition against them (particularly if a pair of nobles are feuding).  They hire out other groups in advancement of those goals and can appoint their employees to oversee them.  But most importantly...you don't -need- to create neato plots for any of them to have a true purpose in the game.  Creation of storylines is great, but a lot of work, and they will indeed add a lot to the list of activities for each group, but are high maintenance in comparison to having players naturally conflicting over the ethos of their clan as a whole.

But more importantly than that, if you create a role/incentive/possibility for playing an antagonist, it spontaneously and continuously creates content.  This isn't to say that we need sponsored roles all over the place; incentive is actually the way to go.  Having Allanak crack down on gemmed mages pushes people towards keeping the magecraft a secret and having a vendetta against the city.  This provides players the actual motivation to play a role where the Oashi Elite suddenly have simmering, constant content that spikes whenever a particularly talented leader comes along on the opposing side.  If they're good enough, that even turns into content for House Tor.

I say House Tor should be the last to open despite it being my favorite clan; It's hard to promote antagonism fitting for Tor in our current setup, since antagonizing them is typically larger scale.  Borsail, Oash, the Merchant Houses...all of their military wings are much easier to accomodate as far as having spontaneous, built in conflict purely through characters acting out their own interests. (Borsail is the least easy to accomodate after Tor until we have a real slave trade in game.  With the removal of playable slaves, slaving took a bad turn in terms of being able to compete and step on Borsail's toes).

In regards to a raiding clan:  I agree it would be nice, but please don't make it desert elf-based.  We have enough complaints about stealth already, and really, Blackmoon was altogether more exciting to have as a presence than Red Fangs ever were.  However, it should be noted that I don't think a raiding clan acts as a blanket antagonist because their interests are both small scale and removed from the specific interests of each group, even the Arm of the Dragon.  We've slipped into a state where raiders are 'omg content, kill it!', but that's purely because of the boredom that's come about from more cooperative play.  Historically, people were too at-each-other's-throats already to worry about a raiding group attacking salters or grebbers outside the city.  Raiders in the past used to be given a pass most of the time unless they targeted soldiers specifically; the same way the Arm doesn't go chasing down murderers for attacks made in the alleys, the violence in the sands is of little interest.

Antagonists aren't villains.  They're just PCs where their interests collide with another group in play.  Through removal of different groups, we ran out of interesting ways for PCs to clash against each other with their goals.  You really have to go out of your way to find a way to piss off a group in our current state, which is why we all mill around waiting for staff to provide things to do instead of us naturally providing conflict to each other.

[Feco]

Automation sounds like a lot more work, but I like the direction -- I don't really like the quest-reward part of it.  It feels too gamey and not enough story-telly.

You could do the silt horror thing with minimal work, though.  Just load up a few silt horrors now and then, drop a hint from an NPC to Kurac that these silt horrors are a problem, and voila.

You can even do the same thing with gith and mantis.  Load a few up, like, on the road or something, or near a common hunting ground, and drop a hint from an NPC, or on a message board.  Someone might get slaughtered by surprise here and there, but adding danger to the world isn't a bad thing.  It'll motivate people.

I really, really don't like the idea of MMORPG type quests.

[Riev]

Automation sounds like a lot more work, but I like the direction -- I don't really like the quest-reward part of it.  It feels too gamey and not enough story-telly.

You could do the silt horror thing with minimal work, though.  Just load up a few silt horrors now and then, drop a hint from an NPC to Kurac that these silt horrors are a problem, and voila.

Or a rantarri on the loose in the north.

I think the biggest 'problem' to work out would be to supply realistic motivations.  Take the gith war, for instance, or the gryzzak bugs.  There wasn't any motivation for others to come into the tablelands hunting the gith.  Or with the gryzzak, there wasn't much motivation to go out and kill them (that I saw) -- other than the motivation to kill something.

That said, I much prefer intelligent opponents.  Second, would be NPCs with cool scripts: the gith and the kryl come to mind.  Hunting in the Grey or travelling through the gith territories is always an exciting experience.  But, again, there's little motivation to do so.

It seems like you don't like the quest rewards because its too gamey, but then recognize that there's "no reason" to fight gith or the bugs. Whats the middle ground?

[Delirium]

I love the idea of throwing random animal/NPCs at PCs for random plausible reasons. Not everything has to be an intricate plot. Sometimes shit happens and you can react to it, or not.

While we love telling amazing stories, a large portion of us also love chopping motherfuckers up with bone swords.

[Armaddict]

Also, I forgot to note in my large post (ton of replies while I was typing it)...I do feel incredibly limited in combat roles in the game, both before joining and after.  The most fun I've had since the closing of military clans has been trying desperately to play groups against each other and finding out that they had little reason to do so.  Nobles are doing a great job trying to keep conflict alive, but are essentially completely dependent on outside groups.  That would be a good thing, except there are so few of them.  Playing the independent providing those services exposes me to just how much is still going on, but also just how crippled the political intrigue game is right now.

I'd like to return to my previous role, which was almost always clanned, loyalist, and constantly looking for opportunities to further the clan's agenda and presence regardless of whether it actually affected anything on a large scale or not.

[Ath]

I don't want Kill Quests where you bring shit back to turn in for reward.  The idea for my concept is to have a turn in to track effort, no direct reward there.  The idea is that RP can be built from this effort show.  With current code and tools we have, it wouldn't be hard to do any of this actually.  We could have plot wrapped around the "Kill/Turn In" aspects.  We'd still expect players to RP why they are killing the creatures, there would be plot reasoning behind it of course.

I miss Tor also, it was one of my best and most favorite characters I played prior to coming onto Staff for the first time.  I do understand that they are one of the hardest to reopen within the combat side of it.

[nauta]

The idea for my concept is to have a turn in to track effort, no direct reward there. 

Can you explain this a bit more?

I remember during the gith war, staff was asking us to track how many gith we killed in character reports.  Is it something like that?

[wizturbo]

Fake combat... like the Arena, but no one wants to risk their character in the arena.

Every major RPT often results in a PC death, but people flock to those in droves.  The issue isn't that people don't want to risk their character, the issue is what are they risking it for?

In an RPT, they risk their character to be part of something big and epic.  They risk it to protect their character's friends, or for the excitement.  The problem with the Arena as it's been in the past is there's nothing surrounding the actual arena event to make it worth the effort.  There's no drama around it, there's no great prestige or tantalizing rewards.  It isn't a career you can actually pursue like you could if you joined a clan.  Being the #1 Gladiator means very little right now.  Change that, and you change the entire dynamic.

Also, as many others have said,  the Arena doesn't have to be a fight to the death every single time kind of thing.  It should be more like being a professional athlete, with a risk of death or serious injury but maybe you'll get out of the game before that ever happens to you. 

I have some very specific ideas on this, but probably best for the request tool.

[Armaddict]

The idea for my concept is to have a turn in to track effort, no direct reward there.

I think the idea is good for providing purpose to combat, but I'd caution to be sure to put conflicting tracking in place.  There needs to be a sense of different 'factions' that players choose, otherwise this turns too far into the direction of cooperative MUDding rather than the roleplaying of Zalanthas.  We don't want Looking For Group type things, and we don't want to make too many things too easily banded together against so that it becomes even harder to play an antagonist to any given group/cause.

It could get very interesting the moment that you have turn in to track events that are directly opposing.  It could also get very interesting if you promote there being third parties who are interested in the outcome, but not in engaging in the event directly.  If it's well done, it can help promote conflict, but if it's thrown together, it will, in my opinion, shift things further towards people engaged in monotony and wanting something real to do.

Over time, it's just my experience that storylines are great and fun, but there needs to be a true enemy/antagonist to make things actually interesting.  It's very rare that the meaningful antagonist is staff-provided or NPC-automated; other players working against you, with you, and making you uncertain and feeling endangered at any given point are what make the game, and accomplishments within it, meaningful.

[Jingo]

I don't want Kill Quests where you bring shit back to turn in for reward.  The idea for my concept is to have a turn in to track effort, no direct reward there.  The idea is that RP can be built from this effort show.  With current code and tools we have, it wouldn't be hard to do any of this actually.  We could have plot wrapped around the "Kill/Turn In" aspects.  We'd still expect players to RP why they are killing the creatures, there would be plot reasoning behind it of course.

I miss Tor also, it was one of my best and most favorite characters I played prior to coming onto Staff for the first time.  I do understand that they are one of the hardest to reopen within the combat side of it.

It doesn't just need to be kill quests. There can be scout quests that can be randomly generated and given to clans. Range them to relatively easy (ride to Redstorm and back, give a report of goings-on) to hard (scout the far reaches of the mantis valley) to impossible (scale the mountains of madness and brave the horrors within). Obviously scale reward to difficulty.

All staff would need to do here is give the quest, come up with a semi-plausable ic reason for the quest and then fork out the reward once it's complete. This isn't too far off from what the byn do already afik.

[Ath]

I don't want Kill Quests where you bring shit back to turn in for reward.  The idea for my concept is to have a turn in to track effort, no direct reward there.  The idea is that RP can be built from this effort show.  With current code and tools we have, it wouldn't be hard to do any of this actually.  We could have plot wrapped around the "Kill/Turn In" aspects.  We'd still expect players to RP why they are killing the creatures, there would be plot reasoning behind it of course.

I miss Tor also, it was one of my best and most favorite characters I played prior to coming onto Staff for the first time.  I do understand that they are one of the hardest to reopen within the combat side of it.

It doesn't just need to be kill quests. There can be scout quests that can be randomly generated and given to clans. Range them to relatively easy (ride to Redstorm and back, give a report of goings-on) to hard (scout the far reaches of the mantis valley) to impossible (scale the mountains of madness and brave the horrors within). Obviously scale reward to difficulty.

All staff would need to do here is give the quest, come up with a semi-plausable ic reason for the quest and then fork out the reward once it's complete. This isn't too far off from what the byn do already afik.

That wouldn't be too difficult to do as I think on it.

The idea for my concept is to have a turn in to track effort, no direct reward there. 

Can you explain this a bit more?

I remember during the gith war, staff was asking us to track how many gith we killed in character reports.  Is it something like that?

Yes, but we wouldn't need you to report the numbers, I'd have it track.  For example we could have had an Elf NPC that was collecting Gith Heads, there is IC reasoning behind the collection, and at the same point staff could use this NPC to track who turned in skulls. We could then use the tracked numbers to go "So and So's warband turned in 50 skulls" and maybe their warband will get a IC reward of some sort via RP.  It would allow us to track effort into it, that is all.

[The Lonely Hunter]

To add to the talk about raiding clans, I think it'd be fun to create a clan of more expendable sorts of characters that people could dip into for a couple days/weeks/months until they inevitably died by creating a clan that works mechanically with a high mortality rate.

People that could dip in and play an antagonistic gith for a month might really spice up travel between the north and the south, but it'd only be fun if they started from a dangerous level of skills (possibly with the trade-off that they'd have lower caps on their combat skills). This would create a class of high-risk taking PCs to make the world more dangerous both for themselves and for others in an intelligent way.

If you wanted to make gladiatorial combat more dangerous, you could also run things the same way for gladiators.

I really like this. Perhaps more "temp" roles where the player knows in advance that it isn't intended to last long. Escaped slaves, kidnappings, gladiators that actually fight to the death, gith, maybe a small mantis clutch got ill and wandered into X area and needs to be exterminated...it can go on. All sorts of things are in line here.

I think that we could use more combat roles in general and the best way to give those roles a purpose is conflict - warring factions. Maybe once and awhile a detachment of Tuluki patriots sets up camp to harass Allanak. Sometimes people just like to play guard-PCs for noble houses. I've had tons of fun doing it before but to make it exciting maybe the above idea can also get mixed in. For example, some temp-PCs are made for the sole purpose of physically harassing a particular clan. The PC guards need to eliminate that threat or protect against it.

[650Booger]

I have a bold idea, what if we created new karma required combat main guilds that were even more badass than warriors?  say they could start with an advanced weapon type, as this seems to be quite difficult/impossible to achieve currently.

not sure how or if this relates to the topic at hand.

[Armaddict]

I don't see why any of those need to be acknowledged as 'temporary' roles.

Build characters.  Engage in conflict.  Lose or win.

The fear of losing time investment is inherent in the game and to be embraced, not avoided and skirted around.  Making those 'temporary' seems to infer that they are meant to be killed off rather than try to actually accomplish their goal.

[Refugee]

Slowing down combat in the Arena would probably help the spectators but take away from the fun of the combatants.  The crazy wtf pulse-thumping chaos of combat is a lot of the draw for me.  But I think death-matches won't succeed unless you find some way to take away the grind of getting ready.  If people could take on throwaway PCs that already had skills for the sole purpose of being gladiators for awhile, they probably would.

People have liked the live-weapon battles at LuirsFest and in the Nak arena that we've had, with the risk of death but mercy on. 

Games that use 9 rooms of the Arena have that annoying double echo thing going on for the spectators, which makes it hard to follow when more than toe to toe battle is happening.  I wonder if something could be done about that.

[Riev]

I don't see why any of those need to be acknowledged as 'temporary' roles.

Build characters.  Engage in conflict.  Lose or win.

The fear of losing time investment is inherent in the game and to be embraced, not avoided and skirted around.  Making those 'temporary' seems to infer that they are meant to be killed off rather than try to actually accomplish their goal.

If we were to create a raider, one of two scenarios has happened (in general):

They've always been a raider.
or
They've fallen to raiding as a means to survive.

In either of these cases, they probably have a few more skills than chargen and a couple skill bumps might provide.

[Armaddict]

...I don't follow.

How are they more likely to have skill bumps than any other warrior-background concept?

[WanderingOoze]

Games that use 9 rooms of the Arena have that annoying double echo thing going on for the spectators, which makes it hard to follow when more than toe to toe battle is happening.  I wonder if something could be done about that.

Yeah, this. Even with brief combat, Bloodball is next to impossible for me to keep track of -and- still interact with fellow
spectators. This may partly be because I'm terrible at tracking the fast-paced screen-rolling action in general, even to this day.
But, there's gotta be a way to make it a bit more managable.

[Jingo]

I don't want Kill Quests where you bring shit back to turn in for reward.  The idea for my concept is to have a turn in to track effort, no direct reward there.  The idea is that RP can be built from this effort show.  With current code and tools we have, it wouldn't be hard to do any of this actually.  We could have plot wrapped around the "Kill/Turn In" aspects.  We'd still expect players to RP why they are killing the creatures, there would be plot reasoning behind it of course.

I miss Tor also, it was one of my best and most favorite characters I played prior to coming onto Staff for the first time.  I do understand that they are one of the hardest to reopen within the combat side of it.

It doesn't just need to be kill quests. There can be scout quests that can be randomly generated and given to clans. Range them to relatively easy (ride to Redstorm and back, give a report of goings-on) to hard (scout the far reaches of the mantis valley) to impossible (scale the mountains of madness and brave the horrors within). Obviously scale reward to difficulty.

All staff would need to do here is give the quest, come up with a semi-plausable ic reason for the quest and then fork out the reward once it's complete. This isn't too far off from what the byn do already afik.

That wouldn't be too difficult to do as I think on it.

Use it as a variable model for other types of quests.

Bounty hunts:
Travel to a location to kill a band of raiders. Bonus if the leader is captured alive.

All staff need to do is populate the bandit camp.

Treasure hunts:
Search one of several locations for a hidden stash. Secrecy is extra important for this one. You don't want any competitors finding it before your do. And if by chance a random grebber finds it first, they can turn it in for their own reward or keep it.

Staff will need to be a bit more active for this. Giving clues about the location in return for bribes or favors.

Prospecting:
Seeking rare materials. Self explanatory.

[Marauder Moe]

Dislcaimer: I've only skimmed this thread because it exploded quickly.

Re: Tor - Maybe house Tor should almot never hire aides, and every Scorpion helps fulfill that function in addition to combat duties.

For everything else, I think Tuluk was on to some good ideas in the year or so before getting closed.
*Public or semi-public sparring areas.  Let clans and maybe independents have a good place to get together and trade lessons (or settle grudges) without the risk or silliness of going out to the desert.  Maybe non-clanned people can get in for a periodic fee.  Will there be some players that abuse it?  Probably, but I think dealing with them on a case by case basis is worth it for the benefit of keeping combat characters occupied and employable.
*True militia.  Non-professional soldiers that get some training (and maybe pay or gear) in exchange for service to the city in times of need.
*True mercenaries.  Clans going out the gates should drop by the Gaj and to try and pick up a few willing bodies to pad their numbers.  Even the Byn could sub-contract independent fighters to fill out their numbers on a mission.

[Jingo]

Dislcaimer: I've only skimmed this thread because it exploded quickly.

Re: Tor - Maybe house Tor should almot never hire aides, and every Scorpion helps fulfill that function in addition to combat duties.

For everything else, I think Tuluk was on to some good ideas in the year or so before getting closed.
*Public or semi-public sparring areas.  Let clans and maybe independents have a good place to get together and trade lessons (or settle grudges) without the risk or silliness of going out to the desert.  Maybe non-clanned people can get in for a periodic fee.  Will there be some players that abuse it?  Probably, but I think dealing with them on a case by case basis is worth it for the benefit of keeping combat characters occupied and employable.
*True militia.  Non-professional soldiers that get some training (and maybe pay or gear) in exchange for service to the city in times of need.
*True mercenaries.  Clans going out the gates should drop by the Gaj and to try and pick up a few willing bodies to pad their numbers.  Even the Byn could sub-contract independent fighters to fill out their numbers on a mission.

Something something Tuluki Arena *grumble*

The only way I would support Tor coming back into the game is they were functionally the same as every other mercenary group. A noble-sanctioned mercenary group (that does not call itself a mercenary group, because noble) that operates on political favor more so than cash collections.

[Jingo]

Here is a question. If we get a robust mercenary economy that can handle all the combat roles outside the city, where does that put the AoD?

As far as I can tell. City militia have four functions outside HRPT's.

1) Patrol around the city.
2) Assist templars with law enforcement.
3) Bodyguard templars.
4) Screen characters who are crime-code eligible through the phases of their career. (I.E. Only Sergeants and above are able to order NPC soldiers around. Privates are crime-code immune.)

If 1 can be outsourced to mercenary contracts. Why can't Templars just deputize commoners for roles 2-4 and make the city's military force virtual?

[Ath]

Dislcaimer: I've only skimmed this thread because it exploded quickly.

Re: Tor - Maybe house Tor should almot never hire aides, and every Scorpion helps fulfill that function in addition to combat duties.

For everything else, I think Tuluk was on to some good ideas in the year or so before getting closed.
*Public or semi-public sparring areas.  Let clans and maybe independents have a good place to get together and trade lessons (or settle grudges) without the risk or silliness of going out to the desert.  Maybe non-clanned people can get in for a periodic fee.  Will there be some players that abuse it?  Probably, but I think dealing with them on a case by case basis is worth it for the benefit of keeping combat characters occupied and employable.
*True militia.  Non-professional soldiers that get some training (and maybe pay or gear) in exchange for service to the city in times of need.
*True mercenaries.  Clans going out the gates should drop by the Gaj and to try and pick up a few willing bodies to pad their numbers.  Even the Byn could sub-contract independent fighters to fill out their numbers on a mission.

The Tor idea is a good one, a good Scorpion could be an Aide for Tor... that is very true.  A Tor family member would probably have a well disciplined scorpion at their side.  This is actually what typically happened with Senior Silver Scorpions, they would move onto being Aides for some of the higher ranking Family members.

I like the Merc idea... I honestly don't see why they cannot do that already.  There isn't anything against it in the docs.  Hey, we need some cannon-fodder to help with a mission.  I'll give you "blah".

Public/Semi-public sparring areas - *sigh*  I like the idea... but difficult to control.  They quickly turned into (I'm being blunt) twink sparring grounds.  Basically all you see using it is people sparring for days at a time.  Now, I mean... if you wanted something like this and we had OOC guidelines where if you abuse it, you will get smacked...  it's plausible, but most would figure you all would think we're being heavy handed.

[Riev]

can public sparring grounds be crime-coded during certain hours? For example, if you're still in the building after dusk, they'll lock the gates. If someone comes by and you're still in there (someone being city soldiers) then they can arrest you? Or if you're sparring in there late at night, you're automatically coded and arrested as soon as a morning patrol comes by?

[John]

Here's a crazy idea, but hear me out: Open up gith as a karma required race that anyone can play. Don't put out an open role call. Treat it exactly the same as the desert elves. Put enough info to create a basic gith background and let players roll up gith (potentially limiting magicker roles as per elves and tribal humans).

At the moment people seem genuinely afraid and wary of the Tablelands due to a desert elf tribe(s) currently operating out of there. Introduce the gith and you suddenly have 3-4 groups at play in the Tablelands: Gith, a particular Desert Elf Tribe, Outsiders (and Kurac). Immediately the gith would present an antagonistic force against the desert elf tribe, but one they could potentially overcome buy themselves. It could cause the desert elves to start brokering deals with outsiders and/or Kurac. However if the gith were given enough leeway to also broker deals, then outsiders could be used as mercenaries in a stand off between the two groups. Furthermore if Kurac has any smarts, they'll realise that either party wiping out the other would be bad for Kurac so that may put them at odds with both desert elves and gith.

This solves the problem of the PCs of an antagonist group getting wiped out (desert elves and gith are born, not hired, so there can always be more). Players from Allanak seem to regularly travel to the Tablelands which will involve them in the conflict. It's PC driven and self-maintains. Finally if one group gets a significant upper hand, the conflict can come to a satisfying conclusion. Imagine playing a tribe of desert elves (or gith) driven from their homeland. What changes would that bring to their culture? How would they adapt? Or would they simply die out?

[Jingo]

At the moment people seem genuinely afraid and wary of the Tablelands due to a desert elf tribe(s) currently operating out of there.

Staff just really need to reverse the presumption that desert elves or any one tribe own the tablelands. I've seen this problem get worse and worse and worse over the years. But that's another thread.

[In Dreams]

This was offtopic, nevermind!

[650Booger]

Here's a crazy idea, but hear me out: Open up gith as a karma required race that anyone can play.

I like it!  more races, more combat main guilds, more karma options in general would be awesome!

I have various ideas for non-lethal combat stuff involving the arena, but I only have the energy to do something every couple of weeks.  The arena should be (and I think actually -is- according to docs) available to any noble clan or the templarate for hosting events.

correct me if I'm wrong about that.

[Armaddict]

As far as the arena...I haven't really seen it used for actual criminals in a fun way for awhile.

Do the whole 'We found a criminal.  Anyone want to volunteer to let him live or die?' i.e. Fight to the death, if the criminal wins, he goes free.

Sometimes other PCs would volunteer.  Sometimes you throw in a baddy that isn't just absolutely weighted to win (Gaj versus elven pickpocket?  C'mon man!).

[Molten Heart]

can public sparring grounds be crime-coded during certain hours? For example, if you're still in the building after dusk, they'll lock the gates. If someone comes by and you're still in there (someone being city soldiers) then they can arrest you? Or if you're sparring in there late at night, you're automatically coded and arrested as soon as a morning patrol comes by?

I imagine code that moves everyone outside when it's closed would be an option.

[nauta]

Here's a crazy idea, but hear me out: Open up gith as a karma required race that anyone can play. Don't put out an open role call. Treat it exactly the same as the desert elves. Put enough info to create a basic gith background and let players roll up gith (potentially limiting magicker roles as per elves and tribal humans).

At the moment people seem genuinely afraid and wary of the Tablelands due to a desert elf tribe(s) currently operating out of there. Introduce the gith and you suddenly have 3-4 groups at play in the Tablelands: Gith, a particular Desert Elf Tribe, Outsiders (and Kurac). Immediately the gith would present an antagonistic force against the desert elf tribe, but one they could potentially overcome buy themselves. It could cause the desert elves to start brokering deals with outsiders and/or Kurac. However if the gith were given enough leeway to also broker deals, then outsiders could be used as mercenaries in a stand off between the two groups. Furthermore if Kurac has any smarts, they'll realise that either party wiping out the other would be bad for Kurac so that may put them at odds with both desert elves and gith.

This solves the problem of the PCs of an antagonist group getting wiped out (desert elves and gith are born, not hired, so there can always be more). Players from Allanak seem to regularly travel to the Tablelands which will involve them in the conflict. It's PC driven and self-maintains. Finally if one group gets a significant upper hand, the conflict can come to a satisfying conclusion. Imagine playing a tribe of desert elves (or gith) driven from their homeland. What changes would that bring to their culture? How would they adapt? Or would they simply die out?

This is in essence what staff did last year with the gith wars.  I'd like to hear from staff why it was retired/how it went.  Here are my reflections (from playing a Sun Runner in the thick of it for a few months):

1. First, it was pretty awesome.  Let me just say that.  Period.  I got my ass handed to me by either NPC gith or PC gith, and in the thick of it, it was very unclear if it was NPC gith, staff animated gith, or PC gith doing the ass handing.  We had a jumping clan with something like 8 PCs, and the Soh were hopping too.

2. Location, location, location.

Players from Allanak seem to regularly travel to the Tablelands which will involve them in the conflict

Unfortunately, this didn't really happen.  I think a total of two crazy indies from outside the table lands opted to start things up, and kudos to you two crazies.  There was little incentive for Allanak to get involved, and surprisingly not much incentive for Kurac (see #3 below).

3. Diplomacy.

The diplomatic aspect was there, but there weren't really enough players to get this aspect off the ground.  Plus, even with Kurac, desert elf pride and the distance to the table lands didn't really motivate much interaction there.  Kurac, in other words, wasn't dying to go into the table lands, and the elves weren't dying to ask for help.

4. Resource War.

This part was a bit hard to deal with.  A key resource was tainted, but on the other end, we weren't really able to do much about that -- and in terms of actual game play, it had no effect, other than to make things more onerous.

But overall, I thought it was a petty good beta for a roll out.  Roll it out in the Red Desert, on the trade route between Luir's and Allanak.  This would get more people involved.

The only problem I saw as a player was that clutch staff disappeared, literally, during the climax of the plotline.  I have no idea what was going on behind the scenes there, but we lost all communication from staff for about a month or two in the Sun Runner clan.

[Dunetrade55]

I think if "badges of prestige" could be given out by clans to combat roles who have served them on a level above and beyond what could be expected of a common mercenary would do a lot to incentivize engagement with other clans. I also think allowing the Byn and AoD to pad out their forces for a big mission with irregulars would be a sensible thing to do. This would allow those who feel stifled by clan life to still enjoy some of the benefits of being assosciated with clans and increase participation.

The only problem then becomes how do you get the training? I suppose that's something to be worked out ICly... or I suppose you could just run in straight out of chargen and pit yourself against challenges until you either prevail or die, but considering the scale of difficulty seemingly tipped toward the strongest links in the chain might make that, unsustainable. As far as gladiator death matches, well, there's little draw to that given previously highlighted reasons. If the incentive or reward exists, then participation will follow.

[Ath]

So on the topic of monstrous races.  I get it, it would be great to play one, I would love to play one, but I also understand why we don't.  It's been explained before, but Gith/Mantis or whatever, don't come close to sharing any semblance of relation with any of the other races.  Gith won't trade with others, they are the utmost evil and downright nasty.  We wrote documentation for our Gith during the war, it was strict, but each of the players understood.  The other issue is they are the ultimate isolationist role.  You cannot go anywhere, you cannot interact with anyone but your own kind in the sense of actual social interaction.

It would be fun to play a Gith with other Gith, but even then... we had the issue that not all the Gith players were playing around the same times as others.  Some got bored and stored, others just ended up dying, and most other PCs when they see a Gith player, they gun for them and shoot first and ask questions later... almost in all cases, no RP at all.  I figure the players had fun, but from a staff standpoint, it was kinda disheartening.

I agree, antagonists would be good for this game, player antagonists.  Balancing it is the issue in most cases.  This does get kinda off topic, but I wanted to at least give an explanation on it.

[Tuannon]

The difference in Tor noble mindsets was always interesting to me. Both had PC Scorpions who they used as aides or bodyguards and actual PC aides.

You had Kharad Tor, who was the officer who had a plan for everything but wasn't always at the forefront of action.

You also had Mallor Tor, who led from the front and sometimes went in without a plan.

Aside from that I think there are a few specific combinations of warrior/sub-guild that CAN work thematically for specific organizations, but most are practically useless for travel situations. This can be fine if you build associations outside of clan circles, but sometimes it does not work that way in game.

[John]

A tweak or five would definitely be needed to gith culture to make it viable as an open clan. I can understand reticence to do that  (although it wouldn't need any retains, as a different leader could rise within gith culture). But yeah, viable PC antagonists near Allanak that operate in grey areas would be ideal. The Tan Muark have filled this role to a degree at different times. Heck the Byn fell out of favour at one stage and I believe we're exiled to Red Storm.

[BadSkeelz]

So on the topic of monstrous races.  I get it, it would be great to play one, I would love to play one, but I also understand why we don't.  It's been explained before, but Gith/Mantis or whatever, don't come close to sharing any semblance of relation with any of the other races.  Gith won't trade with others, they are the utmost evil and downright nasty.  We wrote documentation for our Gith during the war, it was strict, but each of the players understood.  The other issue is they are the ultimate isolationist role.  You cannot go anywhere, you cannot interact with anyone but your own kind in the sense of actual social interaction.

It would be fun to play a Gith with other Gith, but even then... we had the issue that not all the Gith players were playing around the same times as others.  Some got bored and stored, others just ended up dying, and most other PCs when they see a Gith player, they gun for them and shoot first and ask questions later... almost in all cases, no RP at all.  I figure the players had fun, but from a staff standpoint, it was kinda disheartening.

I agree, antagonists would be good for this game, player antagonists.  Balancing it is the issue in most cases.  This does get kinda off topic, but I wanted to at least give an explanation on it.

I'm posting from work (as always) so this'll be kinda rambly.

I played one of the gith who stored. Mostly because the role sucked and I came to dislike the play it was encouraging. The biggest problem  with the role was the isolationist "no communication or interaction other than murder." Even playing with other gith was largely limited to sparring or trying to find other PCs to gank. The only real fun I had was in an encounter with a human that had no actual violence (Although I did steal their sunlon for eating).

Monster races are a dead-end for looking for improved competition and deepening the roles of Combat Characters within Armageddon. Actual Armageddon coded combat is nasty, brutal, and short. Emotes are brief to nonexistent, characterization can suffer, and I wager most of us are just watching our prompts waiting to punch in >flee. Monster Races like the Gith embody the very worst of Armageddon PVP, where there's no recourse but to attack another player, and no reason to do so other than that player is on the approved target list.

As someone who only plays combat characters, I feel confident telling you that the adrenaline and joy that comes from typing ">kill" amounts to maybe 25% of a character enjoyment. And when it comes to actual time spent playing, it's closer to 10%. If I want to swing a sword in to someone I have games that do a much better job of scratching that itch. (btw Ath: Chivalry, duel map,  no archer Comeatmebro)

What make Combat Characters fulfilling is all the work and living that goes 90% of a character's playtime that isn't spent fighting: Talking with your crew, getting to explore personalities; training that focuses on the roleplay, where a fighting style becomes another aspect of the character's personality; interacting with others outside of your clan in non-lethal situations. Being a bloodthirsty blade-twirling psycho in combat is fun, but being that character outside of combat and watching others' reactions is way more enjoyable.

Another key for making a Combat Character fulfilling is to make their jobs Meaningful. I led patrols against the spiders because they provided OOC excitement, but also I had the IC justification of needing to keep the road safe. Make the roads more dangerous and you'll see more combat characters who are probably happier players. The Red Desert gith and the Kuraci Fist are one example. The gith in the Red Desert don't particularly stalk the main trails. It isn't very satisfying going out to "keep the road clear" when you're fighting 10 rooms from the road, which itself is only mildly plagued by snakes and kagors.

[Ath]

At first I was going to smack you BadSkeelz, but you know what... you speak your point of view.  You come up with good feedback on playing one of the gith, that's fine.  It was great to see it in practice and give it a try, nothing wrong with that at all, but as we can see, it isn't the best of combat roles.

The combat role isn't just about the fighting, it's about the roleplay... I'm glad to see that posted.  Anyhow, I'm closing this one up early as we have gone over a bunch of information and we've covered a lot of what I personally was looking for.  Thank you to all of you for the feedback, it's greatly appreciated.