Combat Roles within Armageddon - Limited Choices, or is there?

[Ath]

So I was chatting a bit on trying to come up with new combat roles within Arm, and I will be honest... I'm really falling short here.  To me, the main roles that seem interesting would just be Hunter and Mercenary, that's about it.  I know there are others out there, Soldier within the Arm of the Dragon, the Kuraci Fist, but really... those have pretty key roles they fit.  Outside of that, what is there?  There is also the Desert Elves, there are Combat Roles there.  I realize that with the changes to Hunters within the GMHs, that has "moved" the role, not really removed it.  Hunter is still an option, just outside the GMHs is all.

Of course I know some will say reopen House Tor and bring back the Scorpions, and well, that is an idea, but there is a problem there.  Stagnation and boredom.  While yes, I would love to make plots for them to do, that takes a dedicated resource to keep that going and well, honestly... I don't think we should be the only source of "Fun" for a role.  Tor was often used a Mercenaries, and well... that isn't their role.  What is their Role then?  Well... that's the issue, they were Officers for Wars, something that doesn't happen that often, so most of the time, players would get bored.

Boredom... that is the evil entity that causes issue with most combat roles outside of the ones we currently have.  Well, my hope is to talk about ideas that could make for other combat roles.  We can talk about existing clans, new organizations, or whatever really.  I've tossed around ideas of new MMHs, maybe Nenyuk is opened and uses a combat role as muscle, or House Tor is reopened.  The main thing we have to think of is how to combat the boredom and how to keep the role interesting.  Or maybe, is this not really an issue?  Should we let the players run with it and create their own fun?

Lend me your thoughts and ideas on this.  How do we keep other combat roles interesting?  Maybe you have a new clan idea?  (Remember, the Player Clan structure could also be used with this to make an MMH at some point.)  What clans/organization could be reopened or made non-virtual?  (Disclaimer:  Don't go into heavy IC detail if possible, stick with documented clans and organizations.)  These ideas don't necessarily have to come from Allanak specifically.

[Lizzie]

What about the combat equivalent of a Quartermaster? To expound:

Quartermaster is responsible for the upkeep of the barracks and upkeep of supplies. Also the paymaster, and ration-keeper.

For combat - it'd be a single PC employed by any clan that has use for hunters - but doesn't hire the hunters as clanned members. This PC is responsible for coordinating safe passage of his clan (field trips needing the Byn, or walks outside the gate for grebbing expeditions, etc). She is also responsible for ensuring that the crafters/whoever elses have the supplies/materials they need, whether that means to go out and get it herself, or hire grebbers for specific projects on the clan's behalf, etc. etc.

It's sort of like a field aide for clans, but with more *direct* responsibility for the members of the clan they're in. They don't just go out and get stuff, or go out and hire the Byn to get stuff. They are more involved in their clan members daily activities, plus they can even be the Quartermaster and keep the clan compounds organized. But they can ALSO go out and get stuff, because they are combat-oriented characters. They can ALSO help their clanmates with self-defense by leading them in sparring in the sparring rings, or directing them in riding instructions, for example.

It'd be a great option for people who want to play "socializing ranger" types.

[Lutagar]

Dedicated raiding clan. Plssssss.

Everyone would have more to do if there were one.

[Lizzie]

Dedicated raiding clan. Plssssss.

Everyone would have more to do if there were one.

RF4L

Red Fangs 4 Lyfe
\-0-/

[Synthesis]

If you're looking for the source of combat-role boredom, looking at clan structure and function isn't the right place to start.

The place to start is the ridiculous grind you have to go through just to achieve mediocrity as a warrior, and the despair-inducing death march to above-averageness.  I have 4 months in on this PC, and I've branched from one warrior skill.  I've been stuck at (advanced) on my primary weapon skill for like...2 months now.  It's absurd.

[Barsook]

I agree with Synthesis, it's the grind that is always getting me and that grind equals boredom to the point that nowadays I don't want to play any combat-type of roles.  I seem to enjoy the social roles because I don't even need to think about using my active skills (for example: slashing weapons) but my passive skills (for example: the watch and listen skills) along with my roleplay skills (for example: thinks, feels, and emotes).  Yes, I may have played only one PC after the code change but still that grind is a no win for me.

Perhaps, as Lizzie stated, an quartermaster role that isn't that combat heavy is also needed for those who want to be social but want the grind for the skills.  Maybe this role doesn't need to have to stick to the clan schedule where some days they can take a break and organize the barracks or run errans while that player is logged in.  Or bring back the clerk role in AoD for the same reason.

[Miradus]

I don't think you're talking about combat roles. Every role is potentially a combat role.

I think you're talking specifically about militarized roles.

Being in the military is 99% boring. That's just the way it is. That 1% is crazy freaky scary (and exciting, if I'm honest) but it's seriously not the majority of the time.

The game world is absent of conflict. There's no siege going on or open warfare.

I would like to see a mounted tribe from beyond the edges of the Known making raids into our world. Small armed parties of humans that roam about the game map in varying sized groups. They're hostile, of course.

Then the Kuraci Fist would have a reason to patrol the road. Allanak government could pay the Byn to conduct "sweeps" of nearby territory to make sure there are none nearby.

Even if a patrol doesn't come across them, it still draws them out of the barracks more. In terms of lore, it would expand the game universe so that there's a feeling of "something out there beyond the Known". It could even be expanded into larger plots to capture a prisoner or attack a fortified raider position somewhere out there. If the prospect of mounted raiders doesn't appeal, then it could be pirates or a hostile empire arriving in skimmers from across the silt sea.                     

Minimal work to do. Create some mobs, string them, drop them somewhere periodically. Let players do the rest.

Unless you're willing to re-open Tuluk, stir up open warfare with the greater merchant houses, or launch strikes to free Red Storm East from the giants then you are going to have to create something. In lore terms, closing the only other potentially antagonistic power of Allanak is going to result in an enormously decreased need for militarized roles.

[nauta]

I'd like to see (and be able to play) an enemy, both global and local. 

For instance, you could have:

1. Tuluki Clan (global enemy)
2. Akei Ta'Var (local enemy within the Grey / old Tan Muarki lands)
3. Some Mantis Valley / Outpost Clan (local enemy over there)
4. Anyali (local enemy in the Grasslands)
5. Twin Moons (local enemy in the Vrun)
6. Red Fangs (local enemy in Canyon of Waste)

I find it hard to find any motivation for attacking someone for doing stupid stuff or being in the wrong place (e.g., gemmed dancing around near Tuluk).

Some people don't like the 'territorial' roles (such as SLK); some people do.

With (1-5), the roles wouldn't just be antagonistic -- there would be trade, etc. involved too.  But there would be motivation for attacking someone in your swamp -- thus creating fear and RP opportunities -- peace treaties, etc.

[Riev]

I've been stuck at (advanced) on my primary weapon skill for like...2 months now.  It's absurd.

Everytime I send in a report, I mention that my primary weapon skill hasn't gone up. I'm pretty sure my Staffer thinks it was funny... 5 reports ago...


I want to expound more later, but for now I'll say this:

A raiding clan with a semi-dedicated staff to oversee it not being "raiding for raiding's sake" might be a start, but it won't fix the issue. Right now there are only three ways to be "combative".

1. Versus Mob Beasts - Getting materials and resources for other people to make coin off of.
2. Versus Mob NPCs - Usually gets you an item/equipment that isn't craftable. Unique look, also for coins off equipment.
3. Versus PCs - The "meat" of a combative role, but once you're see as someone who attacks other PCs, you have 2 RL days before everyone targets you just to feed off the "something to do".

With staff assistance, these become a bit different. Mantis attacking Luir's. Gith attacking Allanak. Plague of Rats that needs to be culled. Tribe of humans that becomes de-virtualized and needs killing.

However, unless staff have time and resources, you're basically relegated to the three.

[Ath]

Dedicated raiding clan. Plssssss.

Everyone would have more to do if there were one.

The Soh Lanah Kah are technically partial raiding clan, but I have actually thought on this idea before.

[tortall]

What about the combat equivalent of a Quartermaster?

I really like this. This is how I previously used hunters in clans. The crafters and merchants told them what was needed, and they got it. I love the addition of employing  additional people not canned food some extra stuff.

[Riev]

Dedicated raiding clan. Plssssss.

Everyone would have more to do if there were one.

The Soh Lanah Kah are technically partial raiding clan, but I have actually thought on this idea before.

Just saying that if there WERE to be a more-focused raiding clan, I would want to see changes to the way archery works, first.

2 PCs with high archery (which isn't THAT hard to come by) can take down a group three times their size because of low delay, high movement delay, and inability to block incoming missiles with a shield at a certain point.

[bardlyone]

I think?

Open back up the Wyverns, but with the focus on them as basically free gladiators/bloodball players/etc for Borsail. For the past 6+months, the nobility there has had a lot of focus on the Arena in a way that is awesome, and I feel like having that tied in would be great. Especially if they tied into regular PC SPONSORED RPTs, that the past handful of nobility there have been pushing.

And maybe even work it like the trials that they had a while back where you have to qualify through X, Y, and Z tests/whatever, before you are 'invited' to this role. I dunno. That's just me. And it works with a clan that is both already open and has reason to invest in combat capable pcs as part of their ongoing (and recentish prior ongoing) plots.

The bonus to the having to pass whatever tasks/tests, is that they would ideally be X level of combat capable before even qualifying for it to be a thing. And just like Borsail Slave Gladiators, you'd have Borsail Elite/Wyvern/Champion/Free Gladiators, consistent with an already existing function (gladiator) of an already open clan.

[Ath]

Also, i think people get stuck up on skills way too much.  To this day I have had plenty of fun characters that were in combat roles where I didn't get stuck up on my combat skills and having to "grind".  This topic isn't about skills, so lets get off that please.  I realize there is a grind to get to a "good point" but I also think it can be apart of the role itself.

[Barsook]

I think?

Open back up the Wyverns, but with the focus on them as basically free gladiators/bloodball players/etc for Borsail. For the past 6+months, the nobility there has had a lot of focus on the Arena in a way that is awesome, and I feel like having that tied in would be great. Especially if they tied into regular PC SPONSORED RPTs, that the past handful of nobility there have been pushing.

And maybe even work it like the trials that they had a while back where you have to qualify through X, Y, and Z tests/whatever, before you are 'invited' to this role. I dunno. That's just me. And it works with a clan that is both already open and has reason to invest in combat capable pcs as part of their ongoing (and recentish prior ongoing) plots.

The bonus to the having to pass whatever tasks/tests, is that they would ideally be X level of combat capable before even qualifying for it to be a thing. And just like Borsail Slave Gladiators, you'd have Borsail Elite/Wyvern/Champion/Free Gladiators, consistent with an already existing function (gladiator) of an already open clan.

+1 on Wyverns as I thinking the same but also as a beastmaster for beasts for the Arena.

[Ath]

Those are some interesting ideas.  I like the idea of a Raiding Clan, but these take a lot of staff insight because well... some people just get really PK happy... which isn't always a bad thing, but we want to keep up with the RP.  Then there is the case where the entire PC side of the clan gets killed off and then staff has to work on rebuilding it.

The Bloodbowl/Gladiator ideas are interesting, might be something to look at.  I mean, if you could join a clan that was all about being Gladiators, and your character could die in the Arena, would you do it?  The big thing with the Arena IMO is that PCs should die.

[nauta]

Dedicated raiding clan. Plssssss.

Everyone would have more to do if there were one.

The Soh Lanah Kah are technically partial raiding clan, but I have actually thought on this idea before.

Just saying that if there WERE to be a more-focused raiding clan, I would want to see changes to the way archery works, first.

2 PCs with high archery (which isn't THAT hard to come by) can take down a group three times their size because of low delay, high movement delay, and inability to block incoming missiles with a shield at a certain point.

It is true that only two or three PCs can suddenly make an area offlimits to others.  This is probably why raiding clans need to be monitored closely and/or have limitations (territorial) set on them.

That said: can't the people getting shot at just run away?

[Riev]

They can run away, but that ends the conflict. A dozen PCs effectively shooed away from combat because of a single skill that could kill them all before they ever type in "kill".


Arena roles are always interesting, so long as they are balanced, and you don't just continue to pit that one PC against more and more shit until they die. Maybe like UFC-style... once an in game month or so they participate in one round, against a similarly skilled opponent. Sometimes its a PC, sometimes it isn't.

[Narf]

To add to the talk about raiding clans, I think it'd be fun to create a clan of more expendable sorts of characters that people could dip into for a couple days/weeks/months until they inevitably died by creating a clan that works mechanically with a high mortality rate.

People that could dip in and play an antagonistic gith for a month might really spice up travel between the north and the south, but it'd only be fun if they started from a dangerous level of skills (possibly with the trade-off that they'd have lower caps on their combat skills). This would create a class of high-risk taking PCs to make the world more dangerous both for themselves and for others in an intelligent way.

If you wanted to make gladiatorial combat more dangerous, you could also run things the same way for gladiators.

[Synthesis]

Also, i think people get stuck up on skills way too much.  To this day I have had plenty of fun characters that were in combat roles where I didn't get stuck up on my combat skills and having to "grind".  This topic isn't about skills, so lets get off that please.  I realize there is a grind to get to a "good point" but I also think it can be apart of the role itself.

This thread is pointless, then.

The problem is what it is.  You can't simply wish away human psychology.

[bardlyone]

The big thing with the Arena IMO is that PCs should die.

I'm not so much quibbling that they shouldn't die, but more instead that there should be only a CHANCE that they will die. Unless you are thrown in the Arena to be basically sacrificed for the crowd. Perhaps my own perceptions of what the Arena is sway too much toward a roman sensibility, but gladiators didn't die nearly as often in the ACTUAL historical arena games, nearly as often as people think. In part because if you kill off all your people, it's basically unskilled idiots swinging sticks to no avail. But in a more practical sense in the game world specifically, mulish and other specifically gladiator slaves, would not really make much sense from an analysis of cost vs reward ratio. Why sink tens or hundreds of thousands into champion bred, raised from birth, gladiator slaves, if they die so quickly? Sure, at the beginning of their implementation, gladiatorial combatants were little more than human sacrifice, but by the time Rome was an actual imperial power, it was much more like pro wrestling, with costumes, sets, and neither opponent having to die. My own perspective on the arena is shaped pretty highly by the ancient roman arena, and a good source to encapsulate that is here: http://knowledgenuts.com/2013/12/26/roman-gladiators-didnt-die-in-the-arena-as-often-as-you-think/ - I'm not sure how that stands up to your perceptions or thoughts on it, because I never meant to imply that pcs shouldn't be able to die, so I'm not sure if you're suggesting that they should die more than they did in the Free Gladiator competitions (which I thought did a bang up job of representing stuff how I always pictured the arena would/should/did function in vnpc land), or like, every time, or what. Not trying to derail, but am genuinely curious.

[nauta]

To add to the talk about raiding clans, I think it'd be fun to create a clan of more expendable sorts of characters that people could dip into for a couple days/weeks/months until they inevitably died by creating a clan that works mechanically with a high mortality rate.

People that could dip in and play an antagonistic gith for a month might really spice up travel between the north and the south, but it'd only be fun if they started from a dangerous level of skills (possibly with the trade-off that they'd have lower caps on their combat skills). This would create a class of high-risk taking PCs to make the world more dangerous both for themselves and for others in an intelligent way.

If you wanted to make gladiatorial combat more dangerous, you could also run things the same way for gladiators.

This is more or less what the PC gith was.

I'm curious: Staff, can you expand on why the gith PCs didn't work out as expected? 

Or, in more general terms, why the various antagonist roles from history (most are before my time) were put to rest:

1. Tan Muarki.
2. Red Fangs.
3. ATV (in their newest incarnation as more antagonistic).
4. Sorcerors.

Perhaps there are lessons in there we could work through. (ETA: I mean, there might be IC reasons behind the Red Fangs losing or whatever, but I'm more interested in structural worries -- if there aren't structural worries, then once antagonist clan dies out/plays its course after a couple RL years, pop open a new one.)

Also: I'd love to play a gortok.

[Miradus]

Also, i think people get stuck up on skills way too much.  To this day I have had plenty of fun characters that were in combat roles where I didn't get stuck up on my combat skills and having to "grind".  This topic isn't about skills, so lets get off that please.  I realize there is a grind to get to a "good point" but I also think it can be apart of the role itself.

This thread is pointless, then.

The problem is what it is.  You can't simply wish away human psychology.

I watch my skill list as much as anyone and I'd even put my skills on my prompt bar if I could, but ultimately I found that they mattered less than I thought they did. When I hit journeyman I was able to kill most everything I ran into (that I could reasonably be expected to kill). 5 desert tarantulas? No problem. The issue was going to be running into a player who had been more twinkier than I had been and wasn't really interested in anything other than adding a pk notch to their belt. And I just tried to be ready to run if that happened.

With a combat character at about 10 days played you're going to be able to enjoy most of the game content while still minimizing your risk.

The problem I found as a combat-focused character was that there was crap all else to do. Spar in the circle a little while or go out and kill something tough and then sit around staring at the virtual horizon for a while. In a year or so of playing I've only ever had ONE event that count be considered a typical dungeon crawl (and that was only made possible by a fabulous, creative storyteller).

So I don't feel the issue is that it takes too long to be able to enjoy the game content. It's that there's a lack of game content for that specific role.

ETA: I would play a gortok with nauta in a heartbeat. Or a kryl. I absolutely love monstrous roles.

[Ath]

Also, i think people get stuck up on skills way too much.  To this day I have had plenty of fun characters that were in combat roles where I didn't get stuck up on my combat skills and having to "grind".  This topic isn't about skills, so lets get off that please.  I realize there is a grind to get to a "good point" but I also think it can be apart of the role itself.

This thread is pointless, then.

The problem is what it is.  You can't simply wish away human psychology.

If you think that way, then don't participate.  Either way, thanks for the feedback.

[WarriorPoet]

Reopen Scorpions but make PC roles more Academy oriented. Outsource specialized training to AoD, noble houses, Atrium attendees, etc.

Honestly, without a 'big bad guy' to focus on, pure combat and soldiering roles are hard to sit through unless it's Byn, and even Byn can be misery unless the work is steady.

As for what to do to keep it interesting in combat roles: Start some shit. Let's get hateful.