Marginalization of Roleplay

[a french mans shirt]

That behavior screamed to me, "We are top-heavy and need more minions like you wouldn't believe." People do kind of subtly do it now, in an eternal effort to get more peeps on their side, but I think the throngs of starving, unemployed people in the street help ease it to a decent subtlety. Its playing the game versus realism and I think people play a good balance.

In the Allanak starter rooms, one of the room mdescs states that fighting types can always find work due to the danger.

EDIT: I'd typed more, but after rereading it it kind of felt like bitching about isolated incidents.

Also, I haven't played a fighting type outside of the Byn in... ever? I have vague recollections of the Arm, but that's about it.

[Akaramu]

I played a citizen independent human towards the end of Tuluk, and no one would shut up around me about jobs available in the clans or what clan I should join. Tuluk was beautiful, but if that immersion-breaking shit was normal then I'm glad its closed for now.

Doesn't that still happen?

If you're a good roleplayer and people see that you're active, it probably still happens. I had a dirty street kid with a VNPC rat pet hired for a Fale aide role because a noble liked my RP.

[Jingo]

Going back to the OP. I don't think too many roles have been marginalized.

I think some of the gimmicky roles that never have been really sustainable have been marginalized.

In terms of content, what I think the game lacks are late stage goals.

We've got plenty of intermediate goals:

Gather enough wealth to live comfortably.
Rank up in clan/independant group
Uhhh. Plots?

But nothing that achieves title beyond the character's basic station.

The Grey-Hunt was good for this once upon a time. And magickers have something late stage going on as well.

But most late-stage characters have little to work towards.

[Riev]

Lets take, for example: Kadian Hunters.

Recruit.
Hunter.
Second Hunter.
First Hunter.
That guy with a crossbow grafted onto his had that was probably a Falcon.


These are the stages you have to go through, but after Hunter, what REALLY changes? The ability to hire, maybe? A flimsy "leadership" feel?

By the time you make First Hunter, yes, you have some "extra' responsibilities, but if your Overseer/Agent/whatever has already been having you fill most of those responsibilities, its just a title bump that means very little. You've now "won" Kadius, you're at the top, but you still can't make decisions. Even if you have a solid crew of hunters, what do you do? Wait until some Fale Noble wants a duskhorn chair so you can go roll critters?

There's just... less to do as you get to the top. Much as a great player will say "not if <x> or <y>", it just becomes more administration, less fun. Opening up the "Elite" clans, while fun and entertaining, is just a stop-gap until it happens again.

Sometimes the only "goal" worth having is "die in a spectacular fashion". Which is very Arm, but also very discouraging.

[Reiloth]

Yeah, it's tricky. I think especially long lived PCs sometimes do crazy things just to mix it up, but they may not make sense to the setting (or to their PCs). Or actually, just above their station in a virtual sense, but they've been around for so long, aren't they the most powerful person in their House? etc.

I have found Staff incredibly helpful though when you get to this 'late stage' if you aren't jaded/bored/beyond help. Coming up with new things to focus on or introducing NPCs to the plotting, things like that. I think it takes having a conversation about, because they aren't mindreaders.

I agree that the gimmicky roles have been marginalized, and the House structure seems to have gone horizontal rather than vertical. So you can have promotions that are flavor, or acknowledgement of your efforts, without bumping up to "Senior Whatever" that gives a little too much latitude.

[Reiloth]

Lets take, for example: Kadian Hunters.

Recruit.
Hunter.
Second Hunter.
First Hunter.
That guy with a crossbow grafted onto his had that was probably a Falcon.


These are the stages you have to go through, but after Hunter, what REALLY changes? The ability to hire, maybe? A flimsy "leadership" feel?

By the time you make First Hunter, yes, you have some "extra' responsibilities, but if your Overseer/Agent/whatever has already been having you fill most of those responsibilities, its just a title bump that means very little. You've now "won" Kadius, you're at the top, but you still can't make decisions. Even if you have a solid crew of hunters, what do you do? Wait until some Fale Noble wants a duskhorn chair so you can go roll critters?

There's just... less to do as you get to the top. Much as a great player will say "not if <x> or <y>", it just becomes more administration, less fun. Opening up the "Elite" clans, while fun and entertaining, is just a stop-gap until it happens again.

Sometimes the only "goal" worth having is "die in a spectacular fashion". Which is very Arm, but also very discouraging.

I would say a lot changes, actually. If you aren't a member of the Kadian Family when you start too, that's on the table, and it's a fun rise to power. It sort of touches on the 'Grey Hunt' feel that Jingo mentions, where you can start from nothing and actually achieve quite a bit.

[nauta]

Funny you should use that example!  I think the recent IG closure that may have prompted the OP is related to it.  Are we allowed to talk about this?  I'll talk around it briefly: I was pretty surprised by the suddenness of the closure.  I do have a nostalgic soft spot for the role that got closed, as it was my first.  Overall, I think it's for the better, since it should encourage more interaction with non-clan members.  (How's that for being vague!)

[Reiloth]

Funny you should use that example!  I think the recent IG closure that may have prompted the OP is related to it.  Are we allowed to talk about this?  I'll talk around it briefly: I was pretty surprised by the suddenness of the closure.  I do have a nostalgic soft spot for the role that got closed, as it was my first.  Overall, I think it's for the better, since it should encourage more interaction with non-clan members.  (How's that for being vague!)

Quite vague. What are you talking about? Maybe ask Staff in a request if it is OK to talk about it if you are doubtful.

[Riev]

Funny you should use that example!  I think the recent IG closure that may have prompted the OP is related to it.  Are we allowed to talk about this?  I'll talk around it briefly: I was pretty surprised by the suddenness of the closure.  I do have a nostalgic soft spot for the role that got closed, as it was my first.  Overall, I think it's for the better, since it should encourage more interaction with non-clan members.  (How's that for being vague!)

I could've used the other Merchant Houses as well, though I suppose its important to note that at Second and First (or Corporal and Sergeant) ranks you -might- be able to petition to be in the Merchantry, or the Agentry, as a lateral promotion.

The thing is, at a certain point there is only so much you can accomplish. Rightly so, but eventually you'll either want to die, or be stored, because death is your only release! Or, you pick a goal so lofty that you'll never achieve it on your own, try to get staff involved, have no traction, and do stuff your character would never do, and go down in history saying "You'll never know my reasons".

[Delirium]

Going back to the OP. I don't think too many roles have been marginalized.

I think some of the gimmicky roles that never have been really sustainable have been marginalized.

This.

[Akaramu]

Are you calling the Tan Muark gimmicky? 

That was my favorite role to date, along with my psionicist.

[Delirium]

I loved the Tan Muark. Wonderful documentation, unique setting. But in a shared game world the implementation had flaws. That would be a very long post; tldr is that I'd like them to come back but only in a wagon-based, city-parasite, wheeling dealing scheming sort of role. Elves, but human.

[Jingo]

The Tan Muark are just a human tribe that got a lot of gimmicky goodies throughout it's history.

So really, I wouldn't mind it staying. But as long as it was just a regular tribe.

[Akaramu]

tldr is that I'd like them to come back but only in a wagon-based, city-parasite, wheeling dealing scheming sort of role. Elves, but human.

This is exactly what they were like when I was playing one. They got banished from Allanak twice (for good reason) while I was a gypo. I think Lexie alone had more dastardly schemes going than many city based leader roles did at the time. It was murder, corruption and betrayal at its finest.

Case submitted logs (there was a thread on the original submissions discussion forum) touching on some of that stuff, but there was so much more.

So really, I wouldn't mind it staying. But as long as it was just a regular tribe.

Yet they can be, and have been, so much more than 'yet another human tribe'. See comments above.

[LauraMars]

I'd like them to come back but only in a wagon-based, city-parasite, wheeling dealing scheming sort of role. Elves, but human.

This is exactly what they were like when I was playing one.

Except for the part where they had an unassailable desert paradise to retreat to if times got tough.

I liked/like the Muark too but y'know...that was a little weird.

[Akaramu]

True. But I stand by my opinion that it would have been more fun if the powers that be occupied that area instead of destroying it outright. And I really, really hope the TM isn't just going to turn into yet another playerless tribe that no one cares about. We already have plenty of those. 

[lostinspace]

Except for the part where they had an unassailable desert paradise to retreat to if times got tough.

So? I feel like there's already a clan in game that can always retreat to their unassailable paradise...

[BadSkeelz]

yeah they should die in a fire too

[nauta]

You mean the AoD?   

Doesn't every clan except the SLK, Twin Tribes, and Sun Runners have an unassailable compound?

I wasn't around for the TM.  Maybe theirs was more unassailable.

[Delirium]

The Tan Muark didn't just have a compound - they had a (very fleshed out, unique) village & shops, and surrounding landscape complete with pretty much every single terrain type and lots of animals to hunt. Plus other IC stuff.

I loved their story, and the idea of them, but in a game like Armageddon, they had... well... too much.

I agree that their village/the surrounding area should have been occupied rather than destroyed.

Anyhow, this is getting to be a bit of a derail, so I'll stop myself there.

[BadSkeelz]

You mean the AoD?   

Doesn't every clan except the SLK, Twin Tribes, and Sun Runners have an unassailable compound?

I wasn't around for the TM.  Maybe theirs was more unassailable.

We did

No compound is unassailable with enough staff support. If nothing else you can always target a clan's PCs to the point of forcing them to bunker down in the compound, which is as good as removing them from the game anyway.

I still regret not being able to throw Maurki babies in to the air and catch them on swords.

[Barsook]

I agree that their village/the surrounding area should have been occupied rather than destroyed.

Anyhow, this is getting to be a bit of a derail, so I'll stop myself there.

I know this is a derail but it would been nice as a way to have a "war".

[Kalden]

Throwing out some random questions as far as late stage characters and more crazy things:

1. Commissioning the creation of buildings - possible? Along those lines, can people found Merchant Houses? When was the last time that happened?
2. Is it possible for a commoner to learn to read and write?
3. Can nobles get involved in politics and deal in the Senate, perhaps campaign to legalize literacy or spice, address poverty through revitalizing areas of the 'rinth, or explore technological or trade innovations? Of course the defiler-kings makes that a bit weird, but in my opinion the defiler-kings is more of a vestigial flaw in the game at this point.

I'm back here with my first character after five years. Back in the day, I used to play leadership roles in Shadows of Isildur. With some tenacity, my long-lived characters built organizations: one helped form a militia, building a wooden fort and farm with numerous PCs, while another owned one of the major bars in Mordor. When they died, I started a goblin gang which, had I continued, might have had become something.

I didn't really take advantage of it, but it was cool to really feel like I could influence the world. Collecting coin had more purpose than buying cooler items.

I'm a big fan of "Battlestar Galactica" types of worlds. In Battlestar Galactica, every episode gave you an idea of their limited resources. Ideally, Armageddon has a real sense of limited resources. But it doesn't have that, unfortunately. There's little sense of the population estimates of Zalanthas, and if I create a character who murders a dozen NPCs a day forever, the population won't be affected.

At some point, if I had unlimited time and resources, I would create an RPI which is more of a world simulation. Where killing NPCs affected the virtual population, and the players could see the world ebb and flow based upon their activities.

[WithSprinkles]

1. Commissioning the creation of buildings - possible? Along those lines, can people found Merchant Houses? When was the last time that happened?
2. Is it possible for a commoner to learn to read and write?
3. Can nobles get involved in politics and deal in the Senate, perhaps campaign to legalize literacy or spice, address poverty through revitalizing areas of the 'rinth, or explore technological or trade innovations? Of course the defiler-kings makes that a bit weird, but in my opinion the defiler-kings is more of a vestigial flaw in the game at this point.

1. With hard work, yes I believe this is possible. There is also a system in place to start up Minor Merchant Houses in place. I'm not sure if when the last time that happened is IG info or not.

2. Yes, commoners can learn to read and write, but you have to keep in mind it is still illegal.

3. Nobles can be involved with things that happen with the senate and I'm pretty positive that if someone were to really want to, they could get some pretty nifty things done.

All in all, I'm a pretty new player, so my perspective may be different that some people's. It may even change with more characters under my belt. I tend to be very stubborn and goal oriented when I want to be and so I don't get overwhelmed, I break big goals up into smaller chunks and work to achieve them. It's not about coming in and saying that you're gonna be the next so and so, to me. It's about finding out what my character wants to do and then flowing with their desires and living their story, pursuing their dreams.

I've personally had an absolute blast so far playing. Yeah, I've been told no sometimes and I've had setbacks, but in no way did I feel I should look at them as "Do not cross" roadblocks. It just meant I needed to reevaluate and approach the goal more realistically to the gameworld. If I gave up, I felt like I cheated myself somehow out of something. Not to mean ask 100 different ways til you get a yes, but find a way to make yourself happy and my favorite phrase that I was given was, "Think outside the box".

[a french mans shirt]

3. Nobles can be involved with things that happen with the senate and I'm pretty positive that if someone were to really want to, they could get some pretty nifty things done.

Keep in mind that the particular nobles we are allowed to app for are low-ranking in their respective Houses, although they can be in a high-ranking House or the premier house of Borsail. If they become too ambitious, they get stored, but they can still be ambitious. Its just that staff can't afford to be changing the House colors every week.