Marginalization of Roleplay

[In Dreams]

This might not be the most popular subject, but since I started playing to where it is now it kind of feels like the world is shrinking more and more with each change to ArmageddonMUD. Clans seem to be getting smaller, with more limited scopes and less variation. Roles seem to be of a narrower range with more restrictions placed on their play. It feels like less "things" in general even happen. From what I've noticed ingame it seems like a couple (previously?) major clans are shutting half, or more, of their available doors. They were doors I was used to seeing open and thinking of playing in one day!

It's disheartening to run into seemingly-arbitrary limitations and to feel like the world's scope is getting tinier and tinier all the time. Arm's population seems to be smaller than when I started in general, but I can't help but wonder if part of the problem is just that there's less possibility from the very outset anymore.

I don't mean to be negative so please don't take it that way! But over and over I've seen things I used to enjoy or wanted to try disappear over time. I see other people walking into invisible walls with the paths and possibilities of their roleplay closed off or marginalized. It makes me sad! The world feels like it's receding. Is it just me?

[Hauwke]

I have been playing since about 2013 ish. Maybe even 2012, and I dont see  any change in the game. Ive done a leadership ish position and Ive done a lonely rinth rat, and I dont think the game has changed too much since I started. I really dont, nothing except Tuluk of course.

[Barsook]

I think Tuluk being closed shrunk the world and the roleplay along with it.  But that's me.

[Lizzie]

In Dreams, I know what you're talking about, and to some extent I agree - the scope is being narrowed. However I'm not so sure that's a bad thing. I think it actually -expands- opportunities where previously few existed. Previously, you -had- to be in a clan, to get involved in clan-specific activities. Now, anyone is able to be pulled into it. I think this has the potential to be a really interesting and fun experiment. However that's only once people get past the initial shock and dismay, and continue to play characters who -would- be involved.

We have some damned awesome roleplayers - but they need to get past their disappointment over "this" character and "this character's role in the clan", and start planning "that" character. I know if this had happened to me I'd be pissed, but I'd get past it and get right back into the thick of things as soon as possible.

Imagine doing things for a clan with other people who are unknown - unproven - you're not sure if you can trust them or not, they have no obligation to clan loyalty. I think that has the potential for MORE fun than everyone who just assumes the whole group is working for the betterment of the clan, rather than the betterment of themselves.

It's definitely an adjustment and requires people to think "out of the box" as it were. But that's part and parcel of such a creative atmosphere.

[Akaramu]

I never figured out how to find the fun in Tuluk (it was all too subtle for me), so I can't say I'm upset about not being able to play there. BUT... removing it really did 'shrink' the world in my opinion. It was nice knowing it was there as a living, breathing area that PCs I interacted with enjoyed and incorporated in their plots.

I'm really, REALLY sad about the Muark lands. That was such a beautifully crafted area with so much love and detail. Did it really have to be removed? Really? Even though there was a recruitment call for Muark players right after day X, I'm afraid the Muark are going to just quietly 'go away' and live on as a virtual part of the world only.

Anyway, after closing off these areas, I hope new ones will be opened. New playable areas might also bring back veteran players who haven't been around in years.

[Bahliker]

I always wanted the TM to be forced to run off into the wilds with nothing but their wagons and their wits, even while I fought IC for years to keep them fat and rich. Another breath of life and they could bring something awesome back to the game now.

I do feel like the focus is narrowing overall. No mantis, no halflings, no gith, no anyali(?), consolidated tribals and destroyed tribes, closed clans, closed branches of clans, closed city. I hope the trend reverses. I don't think the gain is worth the loss.

[Akaramu]

I always wanted the TM to be forced to run off into the wilds with nothing but their wagons and their wits, even while I fought IC for years to keep them fat and rich. Another breath of life and they could bring something awesome back to the game now.

Even so, it would have been more fun if Allanak / gith / a huge nasty monster and its minions occupied that valley instead of removing it from the game.

I do feel like the focus is narrowing overall. No mantis, no halflings, no gith, no anyali(?), consolidated tribals and destroyed tribes, closed clans, closed branches of clans, closed city. I hope the trend reverses. I don't think the gain is worth the loss.

+1

[Barsook]

I always wanted the TM to be forced to run off into the wilds with nothing but their wagons and their wits, even while I fought IC for years to keep them fat and rich. Another breath of life and they could bring something awesome back to the game now.

Even so, it would have been more fun if Allanak / gith / a huge nasty monster and its minions occupied that valley instead of removing it from the game.

+1

[Delirium]

I always wanted the TM to be forced to run off into the wilds with nothing but their wagons and their wits, even while I fought IC for years to keep them fat and rich.

Yep.

[Reiloth]

This might not be the most popular subject, but since I started playing to where it is now it kind of feels like the world is shrinking more and more with each change to ArmageddonMUD. Clans seem to be getting smaller, with more limited scopes and less variation. Roles seem to be of a narrower range with more restrictions placed on their play. It feels like less "things" in general even happen. From what I've noticed ingame it seems like a couple (previously?) major clans are shutting half, or more, of their available doors. They were doors I was used to seeing open and thinking of playing in one day!

It's disheartening to run into seemingly-arbitrary limitations and to feel like the world's scope is getting tinier and tinier all the time. Arm's population seems to be smaller than when I started in general, but I can't help but wonder if part of the problem is just that there's less possibility from the very outset anymore.

I don't mean to be negative so please don't take it that way! But over and over I've seen things I used to enjoy or wanted to try disappear over time. I see other people walking into invisible walls with the paths and possibilities of their roleplay closed off or marginalized. It makes me sad! The world feels like it's receding. Is it just me?

It's an interesting question, or a series of observations. I don't know if there is a 'silver bullet' of an answer, it's complicated.

Tuluk, as an example, could serve as a microcosm. On the ground, in the taverns, it may seem that very little was going on. You might see, even at peak sometimes, less than 5 people in any given tavern. However, I found after playing a Templar and Noble or Aides therein, or even a Bynner when they were allowed to be in Tuluk (ever changing), that plotting was going on, and people were busy, which is why they weren't sitting around in a tavern. So indeed, it can be a matter of perception. On the other side of that though, having plots that aren't accessible to the day-to-day population of PCs can be frustrating. To them, it appears that Tuluk is a ghost town.

I've been playing the game for a while -- 15 years. I've seen clans come and go, areas of the game come and go, areas of clans come and go. I don't know if there's any particular time of the game I would call 'better' than now, actually. Nostalgia is a powerful drug, and it's easy to say "2006 Tuluk Rocked!" and "Expansion Division 4eva". But as Lizzie points out, we actually (as Players) have more freedom now than ever to do what we want to do.

Sure, the Amber Wyverns are closed. I played Ravan Ishil'Ravan, the first sponsored leader in the clan when it was re-opened. Even when our Noble at the time was offering a 4000 coin bonus for people who made it past the first year, you couldn't fill the ranks if you tried. It was a great idea for a clan, but it just didn't work on the ground. People keep wanting to reopen it, but again, nostalgia is a powerful drug. Same goes for the Falcons for Kadius, and all of the 'Special Op' parts of the clans. I think what people don't realize is that your PC can fulfill these functions without having the neat 'Title' when you type 'tribes'. I've had several PCs in GMH clans fulfill the more 'special op' functions, but they never even knew the Falcons/Special-Ops existed, or who was in it.

So while the scope of clans are narrowing somewhat, I actually find that alright. It means the glass ceiling isn't this opaque distant stratospheric thing, where there are 8 NPC ranks above my PC's rank. I can see where a PC can end up and what they can do. And getting 'that last rank' just isn't that important if everyone more or less is the same rank.

The problem I ran into when there was so much emphasis on 'Agent vs Senior Agent vs Superior Agent vs whatever the fuck rank is above that' is that PCs would just divert all blame/attention to some NPC. So you had to wait a month for the NPC to hash out some response, that then was given to the PC, who gave it to your PC, and then...You passed it back to your Boss NPC. And waited. And so on.

Now, at least from what i've seen, it's PCs activated with/against other PCs in a much more organic way. There isn't as much of the smoke screen of 'Let me check with my Boss'. And I enjoy that greatly.

[TheWanderer]

Consolidation was and is the right decision for this game. It was absurd to spread a population of roughly 40-65 people at peak across two major cities, two moderate cities, a multitude of tribes, and several different races with their own cultural history (which I don't think most players could do justice).

Allanak and Tuluk had a dozen+ clans between them, some of which were never filled, and staffing efforts were consequently split between the city-states. I was excited when they announced Tuluk's closure because I assumed the same amount of love and devotion from each of the teams would be pumped solely into Allanak. I recall people heralding it as the second coming of Armageddon's Golden Age.

The bigger issue is extremely simplistic and leads to feeling discontent with the current state of affairs. Tuluk was closed April 27th of 2015, but in the year and a half since then I think we've had a... Tableland event. Not sure what came of that, really. Actually, there was a Black Robe kerfuffle, but there again seems to be a big disconnect between writing "world-changing events" and relaying these results IG.

What's changed on a noticeable level within Allanak since people rained a bunch of fire from the sky? Nothing. It's the same exact city I started playing in three+ years ago and that makes things feel stagnant. Were there any power moves? Have any of the Houses capitalized on the chaos? If there's a rift between the Templars after all that bloodshed, it's been hard to detect. Were there any soldiers actively being animated and expressing revulsion for others due to the rampant murders? No. The divide either magically disappeared or has not been adequately represented.

You can't just climax and call it a day -- especially in a video game that touts an evolving world to the playerbase.

Now, I realize there have been additions over this year and a half. There's a cool new roof network in Allanak, magick guilds have been revamped, GMHs had a couple things going on (thanks to staff) when I was near that area of the game, et cetera.  It still doesn't feel like this is the ultimate culmination of staff effort, though.

There's so much that could be expanded upon in Allanak with more players but nobody seems interested in seizing the opportunity. You don't need a fifty acre playground for fifty people if you can pack one acre full of supremely enjoyable content.

TL;DR - Don't reopen Tuluk or open up new clans. Expand on the current clans in Allanak and then invest time and energy into them -- and by that, I mean inject conflict. You could drum up a plot in a Noble House with minimal effort.

"The Lord Patriarch of House Borsail is dying. We need to select a successor!" There's then infighting, outside clans have an opportunity to try to support or negatively influence the results, and there are actual coded benefits for PCs. Starting with the stipend, maybe. An extra guard. More favors. Titles.

I dunno. It does feel like there should be more of these conflict-oriented plot devices going on (that don't necessarily need to involve some earth-shattering event).

[Akaramu]

Expand on the current clans in Allanak and then invest time and energy into them -- and by that, I mean inject conflict. You could drum up a plot in a Noble House with minimal effort.

Or conflict that affects the entire Allanak playerbase, not just a couple noble houses. Like the Ratsucker plot. That was awesome, because everyone knew about it and got involved in some fashion.

Whoever came up with that - I bow to you!

[TheWanderer]

I was using a Noble House as an example. Yes, I mean invest in Allanak as a whole.

[Harmless]

Things should come and go in cycles, kind of directing the playerbase towards one or another part of the world at a time, but there should definitely be a pretty regular return of things after a decent amount of time, especially as they seem to become more relevant to what's going on in the world overall. Tuluk opens when military aggression starts... closes when it fizzles out. Tuluk reopens when refugees are pouring into it... Tuluk closes once things stabilize again, etc.

The same can work for systems, like magick. I'm still wondering when and/or if I'll be able to play a powerful elementalist again.

[Patuk]

Expand on the current clans in Allanak and then invest time and energy into them -- and by that, I mean inject conflict. You could drum up a plot in a Noble House with minimal effort.

Or conflict that affects the entire Allanak playerbase, not just a couple noble houses. Like the Ratsucker plot. That was awesome, because everyone knew about it and got involved in some fashion.

Whoever came up with that - I bow to you!

Oh God yes. Oh God yes please please please heed this call, all ye staff who read this thread.

The Allanaki rumor board, right now, looks something like this:

read board 39
A pungent odor of vomit and stale piss fills the stale air.
Message 39: [Wed Nov 16 02:22:49 2016] Smiling Merchants at the Festival End

Proud smiles are clear on the faces of many of the merchants in the city
of Allanak, as workers dismantle the vast tents and pavilions in the village
of Yaroch.  With a painful rise in the village's population in the hundreds
during this grand event, some tavern goers whisper staggering increases in
profits, ranging from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands, all from
the endless streams of customers who had been present on festival grounds.

"But turning money like that ain't een possible!"   Declared one Yarochi
farmer to another in what some have begun to call the Bawdy Bulb Inn.

To which his provincial companion replied, "You go n sell yer worthless
boots at five sid a piece to five hunderd people and that there's two and a
half large!  Now magine sellin somethin actually worth a decent chunk a
change to five hunderd people and there ya go.  Them there's serious
profits."

Yes, it is without a doubt that many of the city's merchants increased their earnings these past several weeks.  Even the al'Seik and Arabetitribes were reported to have left the city with smiles too large to conceal the mirth of their income.  But what is less spoken of during the craze ofexcitement from the mouths of merchants are the few houses who were not involved in the festival itself.  One can only speculate what a boost the participating merchants were given over the others and some whisper at the possible hidden meaning behind who was granted a position in the festival and who was not.

Which is fun for the two and a half people who care about this sorts of thing, I guess. People are smiling? Some others were left out? There might be hidden intrigue? Wow. If I weren't playing this 'rinthi scum, or some poor Bynner, or a hunter in Morin's, or someone sifting spice in Storm, I might almost have cared.

Things like these, where you have to play a character who's been vetted by a House for X years and then gain the right people's trust in Y ways and only then maybe get half a picture of what's up, both shouldn't and can't be the main focus of either the staff or the game. There simply isn't enough players in the right positions for it, and about 80% of the playerbase is going to be excluded simply by the plots' very nature.

If, however, your plot is about the great ratsucker, that one spider which slays nobles and terrorises the streets, everyone has incentive to care. My soldier got paid to escort merchants through the streets at night. Someone I knew made small spiders as good luck charms. When even a senior noble can get killed, you can be damn sure even high society wants that thing dead.

.. But nah man, fashionable attire. Mean gestures. That'll be sure to capture all the mercenaries' interests.

When your plot is on the level of 'Norshlak, lord of pain and thunder, has appeared from across the silt sea and seeks to recover the artifact that gave Valasurus his power', even a lowlife can feasibly be involved. The kind of cloak-and-dagger thing that seems to be more in vogue the more I play.. Not so much.

[whitt]

Which is fun for the two and a half people who care about this sorts of thing, I guess. People are smiling? Some others were left out? There might be hidden intrigue? Wow. If I weren't playing this 'rinthi scum, or some poor Bynner, or a hunter in Morin's, or someone sifting spice in Storm, I might almost have cared.

It's no Ratsucker plot, but the level of ignorance as to how many different clans and groups of players were very involved in the lead up to, participation during, and the evolving "stuff" that is going on after the Festival leads me to only one conclusion:  You must have chosen or been unable to take part.

Now, the actual event?  Yes, it was in a small farming village you needed to take your character to.  But, well, if you opt out of the goings on?  I don't see where that leaves you in a position to complain.  It certainly doesn't put you in a position to naysay the efforts of others when you so clearly weren't there.

So sure, ask for more plots that force players to react, but to the dozens of players and staff that did get involved and enjoyed the Festival?  Kudos to you and keep up the good work.

[Patuk]

Yes, yes. Git gud. I'm sure everyone who plays a gemmer or a raider just had to self-insert somehow.

[650Booger]

That is a perfectly valid entry on the rumorboards.  You can always add your own exciting rumors.  I would like to see the rumor boards used more often.

[Reiloth]

I don't think there's any good reason to shit all over what people are currently doing in game, and if anything, it can be such a discouraging thing to read for a leadership PC who puts a lot of time to organize events like that. It is pretty easy to criticize when you are on the other side of the aisle.

I think a constructive way to go about it is...What about the Ratsucker plot (or maybe the Tuluki Bat plot) helped involve all strata of society?

My personal opinions -- They were geographical, rather than societal. So anyone could be equally affected, based on if they were in locations X Y or Z. It also appeared that Staff would see if people met criteria (Walking alone at night, in a sparsely populated part of town, or close geographically to a nest or 'hotspot') and then animate on the fly for them. So it could be an absolute nobody indie, or it could be a Noble with their guards. But they might get 'attacked' or affected in some way.

The other part of both plots that worked was the element of surprise -- Things could appear safe one moment, and then be dangerous the next. Much as we would like to see parts of the city during even daylight hours, it was unpredictable.

The issue (again, also, as I perceive it, so it isn't a universal opinion) with a plot like the Black Robe War is that it affected a strata of society (Nobles, Templars) with their minions more minorly affected, and others basically watching a movie with popcorn. Aspects of the plot did become geographical (riots in the street), but it felt forced. It appeared that animations were only for the select few, while the rest could watch on while the powers that be duked it out. While this may have made for an exciting series of chapters in a book, I can see how it didn't suck in a large portion of the population. I don't think it was intended to do so -- But there are other mitigating factors. I remember that there were a pair of PC gangs that were runoff from the Riots that ensued after many commoners were killed. They were routed and killed off by the powers that be in a matter of weeks, and they were within their rights to do so. So what could have been a more 'commoner entry' point to the plot appeared to kaput quite quickly.

As with many things in D&D or any PNP or participatory story...Things, unexpected things, happen. So I think the plots i've enjoyed the most appear to be improvised within parameters. There might be a railroad, but it isn't apparent to the naked eye. Guidelines are set, and it seems that animations happen on the fly for any who fit the criteria, not a select few who are in positions of power (or in the right part of the world).

These are also things I enjoyed about the Black Moon, or the Day of Rain. It affected everyone equally, geographically. Some people were 'involved' with the plot, but everyone could be a part of the plot, or internalize what was going on to let it affect their own story.

[Lizzie]

There have been instances of the following, in this game, but I haven't personally experienced much of it. Things that would directly involve lots of characters from all over the place, rather than a select few counted on to convey information. I've actually implemented this kind of thing when I was on staff in another game, so I'll use my own experience as the example:

I created an NPC that was exclusive to me (not for other staffers to share). It was a little kid. This little kid would show up at random moments, demanding a story from this or that PC. So eventually, people got to know her, and they came to trust that I was playing her as just a fluff piece - some non-crucial random RP device.

Then - I started making her more interesting. Gave her more details in her background and clued this person in to one aspect, that person in to another aspect - eventually, over a dozen different PCs had bits and pieces of information about my NPC. And I had another staffer create my NPC's best friend, another NPC.

One day, some of the denizens of the area got a "thought" of urgency (we had global thoughts). Because my NPC was recognized, people came running to find out what was going on. We turned it into a HUGE game-wide search party for my NPC's best friend, who had gone missing.

The end result: a brand new hunting area of undead creatures.

No, it wasn't an RPI, the main method of advancement was hunting, and you had to train in a totally OOC manner to utilize your advancement (train #40 to get another rank of a skill, for example).

The point being, this was something that was fun for me to implement, fun to involve others, didn't require any "special" people to know what was going on, involved only a little intrigue, plenty of danger. and involved almost all of the playerbase to one extent or another.

As I've said, I've seen this "type" of staff intervention here in Armageddon in the past, so I'm not complaining that it doesn't happen. But as a player, I'd just love to see more of it.

[Dunetrade55]

Honestly, sparse as players may be, removing places they can go for "other" species of RP, in the long run, strikes me as a bad idea. I supported it initially, but sometimes, we just don't want to be trapped around Amos Asshat after the fourth time he's killed our PCs, we want a fresh and insulated world on the other end of existance to play in, and get slaughtered by some other asshat for completely different reasons that make Amos look fun. We could say, how do we consolidate RP into the Gaj? Should we? There are different flavors and characters to whom spending more than 10 IRL minutes in the Gaj could be suicide. When we consolidate to the Gaj, then we eliminate the potential of other plots, even though there's not quite the playerbase to support them.

Point is this, off-peakers have gotten with the game for years. Where people hit snags is the NPC economy. We try to balance this against peak-time PCs who DON'T want to get rich or die trying, but still do every PC, then complain when, yes, they're now rich. Woohoo. We complain about how coin means nothing, etc. etc., about not enough incentive being provided for raiders and muggers... And while all this is going on, it barely lashed together for off-peakers because there was an economy going on to balance their endevours.

Myself, I'd rather look back to the NPC shopkeeper level and make sure the game is still playable if it's five players peak-time. This is damage control, this is ensuring survival worst case scenario until shit kicks back up. No amount of RPTs will fix it, some might even hurt tremendously, depending on the nature and consequences of even attending. These people have been playing the game and solo-Rping and spam-foraging and not playing in your clans and have been more or less happy with that for when actual interaction happens. This is a demographic of the gameworld. They cannot be consolidated because they have real lives, and real jobs, yet, more or less, they continue to play. Rather than trying to cram everyone into one massive knife fight, I'd be asking, what works here, and how do we universalize it? What doesn't work here, why doesn't it work, and how can we limit it?

Cramming everyone in the same place simply homogenizes character elements further and what turns off some players about the Allanaki locker room RPT is now their only option... maybe, you know, just maybe, some people don't enjoy that?

[Dunetrade55]

Have I spent time in some of the Tuluki taverns staff shut down in efforts to "consolidate"? Yes, I have, and they were good times, and we went there specifically because fewer questions were asked in the elven market, like, why was my Allanaki breed hanging out with a human lantern seller. Then she tried to brew beer and we ended up drinking shit-tea, but that's not the point, the point is it was a gathering spot where we weren't THRUST INTO THE HEART OF IMMEDIATE, PANTS SHITTING TERROR just because. It was a sweet scene, and a lot of character development happened, simply because it was a rougher, less give a fuck area. Tuluk had this everywhere. Allanak, not so much, and now, we're all consolidated in Allanak, it was an exciting plot, but some things can't simply be replaced, despite Maurader Moe's attempts. Even if they were, they'd be steered.

You can't explore other flavors because they simply aren't there anymore when you need a break.

[a french mans shirt]

I played a citizen independent human towards the end of Tuluk, and no one would shut up around me about jobs available in the clans or what clan I should join. Tuluk was beautiful, but if that immersion-breaking shit was normal then I'm glad its closed for now.

[evilcabbage]

it was normal.

[Insigne]

I played a citizen independent human towards the end of Tuluk, and no one would shut up around me about jobs available in the clans or what clan I should join. Tuluk was beautiful, but if that immersion-breaking shit was normal then I'm glad its closed for now.

Doesn't that still happen?

[a french mans shirt]

That behavior screamed to me, "We are top-heavy and need more minions like you wouldn't believe." People do kind of subtly do it now, in an eternal effort to get more peeps on their side, but I think the throngs of starving, unemployed people in the street help ease it to a decent subtlety. Its playing the game versus realism and I think people play a good balance.

In the Allanak starter rooms, one of the room mdescs states that fighting types can always find work due to the danger.

EDIT: I'd typed more, but after rereading it it kind of felt like bitching about isolated incidents.

Also, I haven't played a fighting type outside of the Byn in... ever? I have vague recollections of the Arm, but that's about it.

[Akaramu]

I played a citizen independent human towards the end of Tuluk, and no one would shut up around me about jobs available in the clans or what clan I should join. Tuluk was beautiful, but if that immersion-breaking shit was normal then I'm glad its closed for now.

Doesn't that still happen?

If you're a good roleplayer and people see that you're active, it probably still happens. I had a dirty street kid with a VNPC rat pet hired for a Fale aide role because a noble liked my RP.

[Jingo]

Going back to the OP. I don't think too many roles have been marginalized.

I think some of the gimmicky roles that never have been really sustainable have been marginalized.

In terms of content, what I think the game lacks are late stage goals.

We've got plenty of intermediate goals:

Gather enough wealth to live comfortably.
Rank up in clan/independant group
Uhhh. Plots?

But nothing that achieves title beyond the character's basic station.

The Grey-Hunt was good for this once upon a time. And magickers have something late stage going on as well.

But most late-stage characters have little to work towards.

[Riev]

Lets take, for example: Kadian Hunters.

Recruit.
Hunter.
Second Hunter.
First Hunter.
That guy with a crossbow grafted onto his had that was probably a Falcon.


These are the stages you have to go through, but after Hunter, what REALLY changes? The ability to hire, maybe? A flimsy "leadership" feel?

By the time you make First Hunter, yes, you have some "extra' responsibilities, but if your Overseer/Agent/whatever has already been having you fill most of those responsibilities, its just a title bump that means very little. You've now "won" Kadius, you're at the top, but you still can't make decisions. Even if you have a solid crew of hunters, what do you do? Wait until some Fale Noble wants a duskhorn chair so you can go roll critters?

There's just... less to do as you get to the top. Much as a great player will say "not if <x> or <y>", it just becomes more administration, less fun. Opening up the "Elite" clans, while fun and entertaining, is just a stop-gap until it happens again.

Sometimes the only "goal" worth having is "die in a spectacular fashion". Which is very Arm, but also very discouraging.

[Reiloth]

Yeah, it's tricky. I think especially long lived PCs sometimes do crazy things just to mix it up, but they may not make sense to the setting (or to their PCs). Or actually, just above their station in a virtual sense, but they've been around for so long, aren't they the most powerful person in their House? etc.

I have found Staff incredibly helpful though when you get to this 'late stage' if you aren't jaded/bored/beyond help. Coming up with new things to focus on or introducing NPCs to the plotting, things like that. I think it takes having a conversation about, because they aren't mindreaders.

I agree that the gimmicky roles have been marginalized, and the House structure seems to have gone horizontal rather than vertical. So you can have promotions that are flavor, or acknowledgement of your efforts, without bumping up to "Senior Whatever" that gives a little too much latitude.

[Reiloth]

Lets take, for example: Kadian Hunters.

Recruit.
Hunter.
Second Hunter.
First Hunter.
That guy with a crossbow grafted onto his had that was probably a Falcon.


These are the stages you have to go through, but after Hunter, what REALLY changes? The ability to hire, maybe? A flimsy "leadership" feel?

By the time you make First Hunter, yes, you have some "extra' responsibilities, but if your Overseer/Agent/whatever has already been having you fill most of those responsibilities, its just a title bump that means very little. You've now "won" Kadius, you're at the top, but you still can't make decisions. Even if you have a solid crew of hunters, what do you do? Wait until some Fale Noble wants a duskhorn chair so you can go roll critters?

There's just... less to do as you get to the top. Much as a great player will say "not if <x> or <y>", it just becomes more administration, less fun. Opening up the "Elite" clans, while fun and entertaining, is just a stop-gap until it happens again.

Sometimes the only "goal" worth having is "die in a spectacular fashion". Which is very Arm, but also very discouraging.

I would say a lot changes, actually. If you aren't a member of the Kadian Family when you start too, that's on the table, and it's a fun rise to power. It sort of touches on the 'Grey Hunt' feel that Jingo mentions, where you can start from nothing and actually achieve quite a bit.

[nauta]

Funny you should use that example!  I think the recent IG closure that may have prompted the OP is related to it.  Are we allowed to talk about this?  I'll talk around it briefly: I was pretty surprised by the suddenness of the closure.  I do have a nostalgic soft spot for the role that got closed, as it was my first.  Overall, I think it's for the better, since it should encourage more interaction with non-clan members.  (How's that for being vague!)

[Reiloth]

Funny you should use that example!  I think the recent IG closure that may have prompted the OP is related to it.  Are we allowed to talk about this?  I'll talk around it briefly: I was pretty surprised by the suddenness of the closure.  I do have a nostalgic soft spot for the role that got closed, as it was my first.  Overall, I think it's for the better, since it should encourage more interaction with non-clan members.  (How's that for being vague!)

Quite vague. What are you talking about? Maybe ask Staff in a request if it is OK to talk about it if you are doubtful.

[Riev]

Funny you should use that example!  I think the recent IG closure that may have prompted the OP is related to it.  Are we allowed to talk about this?  I'll talk around it briefly: I was pretty surprised by the suddenness of the closure.  I do have a nostalgic soft spot for the role that got closed, as it was my first.  Overall, I think it's for the better, since it should encourage more interaction with non-clan members.  (How's that for being vague!)

I could've used the other Merchant Houses as well, though I suppose its important to note that at Second and First (or Corporal and Sergeant) ranks you -might- be able to petition to be in the Merchantry, or the Agentry, as a lateral promotion.

The thing is, at a certain point there is only so much you can accomplish. Rightly so, but eventually you'll either want to die, or be stored, because death is your only release! Or, you pick a goal so lofty that you'll never achieve it on your own, try to get staff involved, have no traction, and do stuff your character would never do, and go down in history saying "You'll never know my reasons".

[Delirium]

Going back to the OP. I don't think too many roles have been marginalized.

I think some of the gimmicky roles that never have been really sustainable have been marginalized.

This.

[Akaramu]

Are you calling the Tan Muark gimmicky? 

That was my favorite role to date, along with my psionicist.

[Delirium]

I loved the Tan Muark. Wonderful documentation, unique setting. But in a shared game world the implementation had flaws. That would be a very long post; tldr is that I'd like them to come back but only in a wagon-based, city-parasite, wheeling dealing scheming sort of role. Elves, but human.

[Jingo]

The Tan Muark are just a human tribe that got a lot of gimmicky goodies throughout it's history.

So really, I wouldn't mind it staying. But as long as it was just a regular tribe.

[Akaramu]

tldr is that I'd like them to come back but only in a wagon-based, city-parasite, wheeling dealing scheming sort of role. Elves, but human.

This is exactly what they were like when I was playing one. They got banished from Allanak twice (for good reason) while I was a gypo. I think Lexie alone had more dastardly schemes going than many city based leader roles did at the time. It was murder, corruption and betrayal at its finest.

Case submitted logs (there was a thread on the original submissions discussion forum) touching on some of that stuff, but there was so much more.

So really, I wouldn't mind it staying. But as long as it was just a regular tribe.

Yet they can be, and have been, so much more than 'yet another human tribe'. See comments above.

[LauraMars]

I'd like them to come back but only in a wagon-based, city-parasite, wheeling dealing scheming sort of role. Elves, but human.

This is exactly what they were like when I was playing one.

Except for the part where they had an unassailable desert paradise to retreat to if times got tough.

I liked/like the Muark too but y'know...that was a little weird.

[Akaramu]

True. But I stand by my opinion that it would have been more fun if the powers that be occupied that area instead of destroying it outright. And I really, really hope the TM isn't just going to turn into yet another playerless tribe that no one cares about. We already have plenty of those. 

[lostinspace]

Except for the part where they had an unassailable desert paradise to retreat to if times got tough.

So? I feel like there's already a clan in game that can always retreat to their unassailable paradise...

[BadSkeelz]

yeah they should die in a fire too

[nauta]

You mean the AoD?   

Doesn't every clan except the SLK, Twin Tribes, and Sun Runners have an unassailable compound?

I wasn't around for the TM.  Maybe theirs was more unassailable.

[Delirium]

The Tan Muark didn't just have a compound - they had a (very fleshed out, unique) village & shops, and surrounding landscape complete with pretty much every single terrain type and lots of animals to hunt. Plus other IC stuff.

I loved their story, and the idea of them, but in a game like Armageddon, they had... well... too much.

I agree that their village/the surrounding area should have been occupied rather than destroyed.

Anyhow, this is getting to be a bit of a derail, so I'll stop myself there.

[BadSkeelz]

You mean the AoD?   

Doesn't every clan except the SLK, Twin Tribes, and Sun Runners have an unassailable compound?

I wasn't around for the TM.  Maybe theirs was more unassailable.

We did

No compound is unassailable with enough staff support. If nothing else you can always target a clan's PCs to the point of forcing them to bunker down in the compound, which is as good as removing them from the game anyway.

I still regret not being able to throw Maurki babies in to the air and catch them on swords.

[Barsook]

I agree that their village/the surrounding area should have been occupied rather than destroyed.

Anyhow, this is getting to be a bit of a derail, so I'll stop myself there.

I know this is a derail but it would been nice as a way to have a "war".

[Kalden]

Throwing out some random questions as far as late stage characters and more crazy things:

1. Commissioning the creation of buildings - possible? Along those lines, can people found Merchant Houses? When was the last time that happened?
2. Is it possible for a commoner to learn to read and write?
3. Can nobles get involved in politics and deal in the Senate, perhaps campaign to legalize literacy or spice, address poverty through revitalizing areas of the 'rinth, or explore technological or trade innovations? Of course the defiler-kings makes that a bit weird, but in my opinion the defiler-kings is more of a vestigial flaw in the game at this point.

I'm back here with my first character after five years. Back in the day, I used to play leadership roles in Shadows of Isildur. With some tenacity, my long-lived characters built organizations: one helped form a militia, building a wooden fort and farm with numerous PCs, while another owned one of the major bars in Mordor. When they died, I started a goblin gang which, had I continued, might have had become something.

I didn't really take advantage of it, but it was cool to really feel like I could influence the world. Collecting coin had more purpose than buying cooler items.

I'm a big fan of "Battlestar Galactica" types of worlds. In Battlestar Galactica, every episode gave you an idea of their limited resources. Ideally, Armageddon has a real sense of limited resources. But it doesn't have that, unfortunately. There's little sense of the population estimates of Zalanthas, and if I create a character who murders a dozen NPCs a day forever, the population won't be affected.

At some point, if I had unlimited time and resources, I would create an RPI which is more of a world simulation. Where killing NPCs affected the virtual population, and the players could see the world ebb and flow based upon their activities.

[WithSprinkles]

1. Commissioning the creation of buildings - possible? Along those lines, can people found Merchant Houses? When was the last time that happened?
2. Is it possible for a commoner to learn to read and write?
3. Can nobles get involved in politics and deal in the Senate, perhaps campaign to legalize literacy or spice, address poverty through revitalizing areas of the 'rinth, or explore technological or trade innovations? Of course the defiler-kings makes that a bit weird, but in my opinion the defiler-kings is more of a vestigial flaw in the game at this point.

1. With hard work, yes I believe this is possible. There is also a system in place to start up Minor Merchant Houses in place. I'm not sure if when the last time that happened is IG info or not.

2. Yes, commoners can learn to read and write, but you have to keep in mind it is still illegal.

3. Nobles can be involved with things that happen with the senate and I'm pretty positive that if someone were to really want to, they could get some pretty nifty things done.

All in all, I'm a pretty new player, so my perspective may be different that some people's. It may even change with more characters under my belt. I tend to be very stubborn and goal oriented when I want to be and so I don't get overwhelmed, I break big goals up into smaller chunks and work to achieve them. It's not about coming in and saying that you're gonna be the next so and so, to me. It's about finding out what my character wants to do and then flowing with their desires and living their story, pursuing their dreams.

I've personally had an absolute blast so far playing. Yeah, I've been told no sometimes and I've had setbacks, but in no way did I feel I should look at them as "Do not cross" roadblocks. It just meant I needed to reevaluate and approach the goal more realistically to the gameworld. If I gave up, I felt like I cheated myself somehow out of something. Not to mean ask 100 different ways til you get a yes, but find a way to make yourself happy and my favorite phrase that I was given was, "Think outside the box".

[a french mans shirt]

3. Nobles can be involved with things that happen with the senate and I'm pretty positive that if someone were to really want to, they could get some pretty nifty things done.

Keep in mind that the particular nobles we are allowed to app for are low-ranking in their respective Houses, although they can be in a high-ranking House or the premier house of Borsail. If they become too ambitious, they get stored, but they can still be ambitious. Its just that staff can't afford to be changing the House colors every week.

[Barzalene]

This may be an unpopular assessment. I think we do not need more flavor choices. I think more of us should look to the main theme. More Harsh Desert Planet soup for everyone.

[Akaramu]

This may be an unpopular assessment. I think we do not need more flavor choices. I think more of us should look to the main theme. More Harsh Desert Planet soup for everyone.

Sometimes I want the whole known world to be reduced to a bunch of tribes and villages. No city-states. No noble houses. No big merchant houses. Just... people, their families / tribes, and what they do to survive.

[Raptor_Dan]

This may be an unpopular assessment. I think we do not need more flavor choices. I think more of us should look to the main theme. More Harsh Desert Planet soup for everyone.

Sometimes I want the whole known world to be reduced to a bunch of tribes and villages. No city-states. No noble houses. No big merchant houses. Just... people, their families / tribes, and what they do to survive.

Thank you so much for this. I had this floating, nebulous thought that was hard for me to make concrete, and you pretty much put it into the perfect words, right here.

[a french mans shirt]

I would kind of like it if we switched between Tuluk being closed and Allanak being closed, at least until our playerbase gets meaty. Maybe, every three RL years? What do you think?

Its just that... I understand being forced to close Tuluk, but I really miss Tuluk, and Tuluk wasn't even really my style until they injected some grit at the end. You need Luir's and Storm for the rogues, muls, traitors and runaways, otherwise they'd all have to be ranger and wouldn't be able to roll assassins and kill people.

[a french mans shirt]

I would kind of like it if we switched between Tuluk being closed and Allanak being closed, at least until our playerbase gets meaty. Maybe, every three RL years? What do you think?

Its just that... I understand being forced to close Tuluk, but I really miss Tuluk, and Tuluk wasn't even really my style until they injected some grit at the end. You need Luir's and Storm for the rogues, muls, traitors and runaways, otherwise they'd all have to be ranger and wouldn't be able to roll assassins and kill people.

I kind of realized that was a bit of a blanket statement at the end, but you would still need knowledge of watering holes and animals and hiding places in order to close Luir's or Storm, which is something gained through needless death for characters like that, unless they were House hunters. For the most part.

[evilcabbage]

tribal desert survival instead of cities?

with a tribal power structure that everyone has an opportunity to be a part of and possibly fight their way up to?

with similar themes (groups focused on making arms and armor, clothing and jewelry, furniture and such), but working towards a collective goal (being better than the OTHER tribe)?

that sounds like fun to me.

[nauta]

I'm curious why so few players actually roll up characters in the existing tribes.  For instance, if you get a chance and peek at the number of Arabeti in the last few years on their roll call page, I think it's under 10 -- 5 of which were carru'd leaving the tents within the first three weeks (joking ... kind of).  Things aren't that much better for the Seik and the desert elf tribes.

I guess I'd be inclined to leave these roles (Dasari, Tan Muarki, etc.) open provided they didn't burden staff because (a) possibilities inspire creativity and (b) the documentation is beautiful.

Genuine question: How much extra work to staff would it be to leave the Jul Tavan (say) open?  Or the Tan Muark?  Would it be more work than a player who comes in with a virtual tribe?  (I can see arguments for consolidation of players working -- but here I'm curious about how much extra work staff-side such things bring.)

I mean, a PC in Arabet or Seik or Tan Muark or Gribble's Custom Tribe isn't all that different from the perspective of staff work, is it?  The coded bits of the coded tribe are finished.  The documentation is finished.  They all report to the Tribals & Independents Staff time...

[evilcabbage]

i think if we opened up more clans for play, people would start flocking back to play the game for a while.

probably. hopefully.

[Patuk]

Insofar I've asked people, they don't seem to enjoy the human tribals very much simply because, and I quote only one here, 'I don't like playing bitch to delves very much.' Others seem to have said the thing.

Delves seem slightly more popular, but complaints appear to range from 'why are they so outgoing and colorful and rich and safe and wtf' from 'I don't want to be a delf in a pen', though as I understand, both of these have been rectified somewhat.

[bardlyone]

Insofar I've asked people, they don't seem to enjoy the human tribals very much simply because, and I quote only one here, 'I don't like playing bitch to delves very much.' Others seem to have said the thing.

I played several seik before they got put in the Arabet tents and made more pah-centric, when the Seik tents were nearly as close to the west gates of Allanak as the ranch is. I enjoyed playing a tribal then. Not so much while under the thumb of d-elves, so I would concur there. I'm also not fond of the way skellebain changes have made some seik rp, or of the way that their handling of mages changed suddenly as soon as they were in the tents with the arabet.

[Dunetrade55]

The coded tribes require a spec app to even get into. Add to that the random dangers they face and it can seem like you just crapped out a spec app for nothing. Add a point of karma to be a d-elf... yeah, well, ok. Stack that atop a lot of other things to be a mage, depending on tribe/element, and you're looking at something a zero-karma player soon finds a bit daunting, especially if staff isn't entirely pleased with them.

But, if these challenges can be overcome through some means, yeah, I'd rather the cities went up in flames.

[Malken]

My problem with playing Seik/Arabeti is that you hit the ceiling pretty quickly and then there's really not that much left to do. No matter what you do you are told that you are the little fish in the pond and you just need to suck it up.

I don't think that coded tribes require a spec app to get in, though. You just need to apply via the clan request thingie - it doesn't count as a special app.

[Akaramu]

I don't think that coded tribes require a spec app to get in, though. You just need to apply via the clan request thingie - it doesn't count as a special app.

As far as I know, the Tan Muark is only open when staff posts a recruitment call.

[Lizzie]

I'm totally "meh" about the tribes. I've played in a few, desert elf and human. For me, it's just a matter of the RP. I can only stand so much kah kah kah ti ti ti and sexual innuendos/activity before I want to just leap off the shield wall.

[Miradus]

That was my perception of the tribes as well but after playing in one I discovered it's not really like that. It's an affectation of individuals and not REQUIRED behavior. While the tribe may be promiscuous by nature, there's no reason at all you can't come up with your own roleplay as to why you don't want to participate.

Just pointing this out because I felt the same way you did for a long time but then I tried a tribal and loved it, though the frivolous mudsex goofiness is definitely not my style. I want to explore, achieve, and smash things. Nothing in the tribal lore or roleplay got in the way of that. There's no mandatory orgies on Thursdays.

[evilcabbage]

you missed the part where lizzie said "i played in a few" i think.

[puella]

There's no mandatory orgies on Thursdays.

They were highly recommended. ;-)

[Miradus]

Definitely want to skip "Fellatio Friday" as well.

[The Lonely Hunter]

I understand your feelings. I hate when most anything gets closed. However, I think that "Tuluk" closing was a great idea. The new version of Tuluk just never felt like it fit into the world and I think that new Tuluk made a huge negative and permanent impact on the game. The way it was designed was cool but I think that the 'feel' of it was lost on the players and it never really worked out the way that it was envisioned by those who put it together. Many of the players who learned the game in new Tuluk don't know any better and bring that same style to the rest of Armageddon - a style that I never believed fit into the world (again, in the way that it was executed and not intended).

I have been around awhile and I perceive a noticeable difference (real or not) and I have for several years now. It is just the way things are now. I find it sad but truth be told, Arm is still in a league completely different than any other MUD out there and I still have a lot of fun.

If I had it my way I would open almost everything as far as clans go. I would also have more staff interaction to animate NPCs for the sake of driving plots, promoting players, giving clans the 'feel' that they should have, etc. If players want to play together, they will. I never liked the idea of thinning things out in order to force consolidation of the playerbase.

Just a few thoughts from a conservative old fart who will still stab someone in the face for their boots.

[Akaramu]

I'm totally "meh" about the tribes. I've played in a few, desert elf and human. For me, it's just a matter of the RP. I can only stand so much kah kah kah ti ti ti and sexual innuendos/activity before I want to just leap off the shield wall.

My tribal experience (Tan Muark) was totally different from yours. I've never played in the other human tribes, though, and don't feel an overwhelming urge to do so. I could be wrong, but they just don't seem to matter to the world at large. The gypsies used to matter due to their willingness to run dastardly schemes in cities, and have an active city presence. Not sure if this is still the case now. However, as a player, I always enjoyed interacting with them (more so than with any other tribals) and I REALLY hope to still see them IG. I'll be a sad panda if they're all virtual now.

[Malken]

I doubt that the Tan Muark will be playable again so that's why I didn't mentioned them as a playable human tribe.

[Jingo]

I haven't liked any of the human tribes since the Benjari. Neither the Seik nor the Arabet have ever appealed to me.

I thought it would be cool to play a Muark at one point. But I never got the chance.

Oh and the constant threat of commando desert elves trampling the clan doesn't help much either.

[a french mans shirt]

I actually like an area of the game where elves lord it over everyone else. A place where elves actually have power allows their psychology to shine through, their not stealing from their own people, their unquestioning loyalty. I mean, what pc city elf in the world right now is going to put another pc city elf through a loyalty test, and why? Pc city elves have a higher turnover than I do, and they are normally highly distrustful of those outside their tribe.

I wish you could regularly app a major tribal, maybe at one karma, without needing to put it through a special process or go for a role call. One elf tribe and one human tribe, maybe. Sun Runners and Arabetti perhaps?

[whitt]

I wish you could regularly app a major tribal, maybe at one karma, without needing to put it through a special process or go for a role call. One elf tribe and one human tribe, maybe. Sun Runners and Arabetti perhaps?

You only need 1 Karma to regularly app a Desert Elf.  Human Tribals, I believe, do not require any karma.  Certainly neither requires a role call.

[Miradus]

I wish you could regularly app a major tribal, maybe at one karma, without needing to put it through a special process or go for a role call. One elf tribe and one human tribe, maybe. Sun Runners and Arabetti perhaps?

You only need 1 Karma to regularly app a Desert Elf.  Human Tribals, I believe, do not require any karma.  Certainly neither requires a role call.

My experience is that both of those roles are always in need and eager to get new blood. If they appeal to you, or if you're just curious, I encourage you to try. I have had a lot of fun in those roles and I expect to again.

[Armaddict]

Yeah, unless policy has changed at some point, tribal elves/humans are always open for applications.  You don't need to wait for a role call unless you're looking for a leadership position and they won't fill it IC.

[nauta]

Correct.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Arabet

Open for play to PC's. Submit a request, above, before applying to check if there is an open slot in the tribe.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/al'Seik

Open for play to PC's. Submit a request, above, before applying to check if there is an open slot in the tribe.