Crimcode: Some ideas

[nauta]

So, I'm not quite sure how to get these ideas out, but this is for discussion.

Roughly, the idea is to shift crimcode away from coded 'kill' to either subdue or the virtual world (or both).  Make it less (kill) proactive and more retroactive (with the wanted flag) or subdue oriented.

1. All soldiers would get max subdue (or beyond max) and this would be their response to criminal acts.  If a criminal escapes, so what? -- that just makes the story more interesting.

(If this is too hard codedly, then perhaps the soldiers would do nothing but emote and shout, or give them wimpy stats and clubs or something. The burden would shift to #2 -- the virtual world and the wanted flag.)

2. The virtual world would report criminal attacks -- attacks 100% accurate, and steal attempts are pretty good right now --- and wanted flags would get reported to PC soldiers (if not already).

3. If wanted, you'd get insta-subdued at the gates if you enter.  (Perhaps outside apartments and the rinth too?)

4. Wanted flags would wear off much more slowly -- like ten times more slowly in the case of stealing or even not at all in the case of murder -- unless a PC pardons you.

I'm not sure about any of these ideas, but something has to shift, I think.  At this point, I don't initiate any combat commands (subdue, kill, etc.) inside the city or near an NPC unless I wish up first to be sure.

[Sphynx]

+1 vote for crimcode being fixed, it is game breakingly fucked as it is to the point I doubt very seriously I will ever roll up a combat character that has any meaningful interaction with the citys, the only non-virtually represented segment of significant npc population seems to be guard/soldier type npc's that are coded to gang up 100 to 1 with outrageous efficiency and leave exactly no room for player decisions or reactions, regardless of any IC factors that would lead to this coded behavior either not being initiated in the first place, or being altered in significant ways. I understand that the code can only do so much, but as it is, I agree with OP that a serious change should be looked into

[Jihelu]

"1. All soldiers would get max subdue (or beyond max) and this would be their response to criminal acts.  If a criminal escapes, so what? -- that just makes the story more interesting."

So elves+warriors with good subdue would get away and people wouldn't get super murdered all the time, so thats alright I guess.

"3. If wanted, you'd get insta-subdued at the gates if you enter.  (Perhaps outside apartments and the rinth too?)

4. Wanted flags would wear off much more slowly -- like ten times more slowly in the case of stealing or even not at all in the case of murder -- unless a PC pardons you."

That's cool as well.


"2. The virtual world would report criminal attacks -- attacks 100% accurate, and steal attempts are pretty good right now --- and wanted flags would get reported to PC soldiers (if not already)."
I'm confused by this.
Are you saying all criminal activities would be reported to pc soldiers or on a board of theres or something, which would be kinda cool if there was a board in the barracks that was updated with people doing crimes and including whether they escaped or not, or what?
I'm not really fine with "Oh you did a crime at pre dawn and a soldier saw? We know every detail now with full clarity"

[Riev]

I mean, I GUESS PCs could be given the ability to see the "wanted" flag, and the knowledge of what level is what (stealing, murder, etc) but that wouldn't really help.

I'm down with less NPC soldiers and more patrollers. And less "subdue failed because they resisted immediate attack". Also the auto-generate soldier script is just killer. Overkill.

[nauta]

"2. The virtual world would report criminal attacks -- attacks 100% accurate, and steal attempts are pretty good right now --- and wanted flags would get reported to PC soldiers (if not already)."
I'm confused by this.
Are you saying all criminal activities would be reported to pc soldiers or on a board of theres or something, which would be kinda cool if there was a board in the barracks that was updated with people doing crimes and including whether they escaped or not, or what?
I'm not really fine with "Oh you did a crime at pre dawn and a soldier saw? We know every detail now with full clarity"

Yeah, that's the idea (if it isn't in there already): it would go to the board accessible by high-ranked soldiers and templars.

There'd be perhaps some granularity.  Steal attempts might not always get reported -- I think that's how it is now -- but combat things, I think, should get reported, although perhaps with some room to play here, e.g.: reports the sdesc/tdesc/mdesc and lets PC soldierss RP appropriately; or if you successfully hide, then the chance of report is dropped a bit.

Of course, it isn't fully realistic (but what we have now has led to many unrealistic situations), but you could tell some story about the use of the way, the many virtual people on the street who witnessed it, etc.  Doing a crime in Allanak, even in the pre-dawn hours, would get reported.

Now, this would be a hit to the fun mini-game of mug-the-NPC that I've done on some rinthers.  Again, it'd need to be tweaked, but you could maybe still retain this -- the reports would only happen if an NPC catches you, for instance.  Or we could just eliminate this mini-game for the sake of the greater good, which is: a sane crimcode.

[Refugee]

Is there some way to make guards a little smarter?

They don't attack/you don't get flagged wanted -
1.  If you're non-AOD but assist an AOD in a fight
2.  If you're attacking someone who is casting spells
3.  I don't know how it could be done codedly, but if you catch someone picking pockets or something, you should be able to react physically without -you- getting killed for it.
4.  I pretty much think unarmed combat shouldn't be a capitol crime anywhere, unless you attack a soldier or a noble.
5.  Disarm...It would be nice if you could try to disarm someone without starting combat, maybe, and being flagged.  Also if AoD PCs could disarm without starting a dogpile.  Subdue too.
6.  Staff should be able to turn it off somehow when holding RPTs in the city where your PC would naturally be attacking other citizens or even other units of soldiers.
7.  I also got hauled off one time for attacking a NPC rioter invader inside my clan hall, which is kind of odd.

I haven't really thought these through but off the top of my head, these are things that have bothered me through the years.

I like the suggestions you've made, Nauta.

[Synthesis]

I mean, I GUESS PCs could be given the ability to see the "wanted" flag, and the knowledge of what level is what (stealing, murder, etc) but that wouldn't really help.

I'm down with less NPC soldiers and more patrollers. And less "subdue failed because they resisted immediate attack". Also the auto-generate soldier script is just killer. Overkill.

They added the auto-generate soldier script because once they started putting in the patrolling soldier NPCs, people learned the routes and started murking them for their phat loot when they patrolled through areas that were relatively safe.

It's an extremely kludgy solution, though, I agree.

[Synthesis]

I think there should be more crime, not less.

Being subdued and taken to jail is essentially the equivalent of a death sentence in this game, so what the hell is the difference between getting murked by a HG goon squad and getting murked by a PC templar?  Once you've played the "begging for my life" game a few times, it loses its appeal, I don't care how awesome the Templar is (and I've been jail-murked by some of the best).

[nauta]

I also want to say, from a code perspective, granted what I've seen over the years too, the solution I'm striving for here is simplicity.  There will always be exceptions and grey areas, which is why it'd be better to error on the side of caution (more retroactive, more subdue) -- which ultimately encourages more PC-level interaction (jail time, chasing wanted people, bribing guards, etc.)

Criminals, it is true, would have to learn new things and places to train their skills rather than NPCs.

[Synthesis]

Also, subdue is already the default.

Soldier NPCs always try to subdue you first.  They only start whipping that ass if they fail the subdue.

They will succeed 100% of the time if you turn on "nosave arrest," so that idea is essentially already implemented.

[Refugee]

Also, subdue is already the default.

Soldier NPCs always try to subdue you first.  They only start whipping that ass if they fail the subdue.

They will succeed 100% of the time if you turn on "nosave arrest," so that idea is essentially already implemented.

Ah, so everyone I see get ganked has nosave arrest unflagged?  I assumed they were just failing the subdue.

[Miradus]

In another game I play on occasion, their crimcode works essentially this way:

If you witness a crime (theft or murder) then you have been flagged, and the criminal has been flagged. The witness can then go to an NPC and COMPLAIN and their flag gets cleared and the criminal's flag goes from having committed a crime to WANTED. At that point guards start tracking them.

I haven't played in the cities enough to really know the problems associated with the crimcode that the rest of you are upset about, but I thought knowing how another mud handled it might give you some ideas.

[Riev]

Also, subdue is already the default.

Soldier NPCs always try to subdue you first.  They only start whipping that ass if they fail the subdue.

They will succeed 100% of the time if you turn on "nosave arrest," so that idea is essentially already implemented.

Ah, so everyone I see get ganked has nosave arrest unflagged?  I assumed they were just failing the subdue.

The part that trips people up, is that if you "flee" from being arrested, you IMMEDIATELY have nosave arrest off. So the next time an NPC sees you, its instant death.

[Refugee]

The part that trips people up, is that if you "flee" from being arrested, you IMMEDIATELY have nosave arrest off. So the next time an NPC sees you, its instant death.

Ahhhhhhhh!  I did not know that.  That is a very good piece of information to have.

[650Booger]

Seeing alot of good points, and adding my vote in 100% agreement that a change is needed to crimcode.  crime SHOULD be more prevalant, and easier to commit.

*edited* I also think there should be a bigger burden on PC law enforcement.  Every time NPC soldiers merc a criminal is a great RP opportunity lost.

[yousuff]

Is there some way to make guards a little smarter?

They don't attack/you don't get flagged wanted -
1.  If you're non-AOD but assist an AOD in a fight
2.  If you're attacking someone who is casting spells
3.  I don't know how it could be done codedly, but if you catch someone picking pockets or something, you should be able to react physically without -you- getting killed for it.
4.  I pretty much think unarmed combat shouldn't be a capitol crime anywhere, unless you attack a soldier or a noble.
5.  Disarm...It would be nice if you could try to disarm someone without starting combat, maybe, and being flagged.  Also if AoD PCs could disarm without starting a dogpile.  Subdue too.
6.  Staff should be able to turn it off somehow when holding RPTs in the city where your PC would naturally be attacking other citizens or even other units of soldiers.
7.  I also got hauled off one time for attacking a NPC rioter invader inside my clan hall, which is kind of odd.

I haven't really thought these through but off the top of my head, these are things that have bothered me through the years.

I like the suggestions you've made, Nauta.

Modified by user: mechanics and shiz.

When half giant soldiers get involved things get messy. I also think half giant soldiers should be removed, and only be present at the gates. As it is, they're fucking everywhere and it's stupid considering they're meant to be rare.

Just a note but crime is still relatively easy when you have sneak and hide. You can always lure guards elsewhere (or wish up and state you want to distract guards, i.e. make them move to a room further than you are. Guards can't harm you from a distance. Even in daytime if no guards are immediately around? Do your crime, get wanted (if applicable) and find a place to hide. You can still murder people in broad daylight. Learning patrol routes also helps, and not even really public places are as safe as you think.

I do think wanted flags should last longer, depending on crime. Theft? Guards don't have time for that shit. Murder though? Definitely should stick on your ass for longer.

Edit; it's also come to my attention certain bits of crimcode has been changed. Spice smuggling is very different now. For those of you who have been caught with spice by NPC guards, you'll find the new world responses to be much better

[Ath]

So I'm just going to post on this here... no talking about mechanics of the game, especially when you really don't understand them.  I'm already reading here information that is very wrong, and will likely screw up someones experience.  This is really why we don't allow the talking of code and mechanics, because even though many think they know what they are talking about... they really don't.  Unless it's documented in the Help files, please don't try to explain a system of the game.  If you feel you have a reason to know how something works, put in a request, and we can take care of it there.

Crimcode does need work, but the shear amount of work that would go into a revamp would take so much time from other areas of the games that likely need more attention.  Trust me, we know it needs work... but I really cannot say when it will be taken care of.  Maybe if we can find some ways to tweak it, we will.  A lot of us are also annoyed with it also, trust me... I've lost a character to it before, it sucks.

Warning:  People have posted Mechanics that are wrong in this thread.  I am not going to delete them or tell you which, as that could just validate it.

Edit:  Oh, and typically if there is a mechanic change that would make the player experience different, we do mention it in release notes or in the front page news.  We will hint as to how it works, but we won't explain details as that just removes from the experience.  (AKA, yes... the gate guards are a bit more..  conscious of what is going on and act more appropriately to when/if they find contraband.)

[BadSkeelz]

Just remove all soldier NPCs.

[nauta]

Just remove all soldier NPCs.

In terms of simplicity, this is actually the thought that was guiding my other thoughts.  At least make them not aggro, ever, except maybe subdue.  You can shift the burden of punishment to PCs via the wanted command.

And yeah, I think both staff and players agree the crimcode is a complicated lover.

[Jingo]

Make soldiers slower to react. Even a five minute delay.

Failing that. Remove all the idling soldiers that just stand around and replace them with patrolling soldiers.

[yousuff]

People

Sowwy

Edit; Just to clarify, discussion of mechanics already in helpfiles is allowed though, right? I may have strayed a little far from that though.

[lostinspace]

Make soldiers slower to react. Even a five minute delay.

Failing that. Remove all the idling soldiers that just stand around and replace them with patrolling soldiers.

5 minute delay on soldiers would be ideal! I've played a few underhanded types, and crim-code is honestly more frusturating than anything else. Hell a 1 minute delay would be amazing. What if soldiers that SAW you commit a crime immediately agro, and all others have a delay that is RP'd as the information moving through the grapevine? This would give a criminal time to take off and lay low if they mess up. I'm not sure how every soldier in the city knows I failed to take that little elven kids candy, but I'll be damned if they're not pissed about it.

Also crimcode shouldn't trigger when the target of the crimcode is elves, soldiers shouldn't give a shit about elves.

[BadSkeelz]

Make soldiers slower to react. Even a five minute delay.

Failing that. Remove all the idling soldiers that just stand around and replace them with patrolling soldiers.

5 minute delay on soldiers would be ideal! I've played a few underhanded types, and crim-code is honestly more frusturating than anything else. Hell a 1 minute delay would be amazing. What if soldiers that SAW you commit a crime immediately agro, and all others have a delay that is RP'd as the information moving through the grapevine? This would give a criminal time to take off and lay low if they mess up. I'm not sure how every soldier in the city knows I failed to take that little elven kids candy, but I'll be damned if they're not pissed about it.

Also crimcode shouldn't trigger when the target of the crimcode is elves, soldiers shouldn't give a shit about elves.

Elves give a shit about elves.

Rework the "instaspawn Seal Team 6" code so that it spawns elves and only fires when you attack an elf (N)PC.

[In Dreams]

Re: Ath~

I understand that it's policy on this game not to reveal anything on code information whatsoever. I do! But, if the staff really truly agrees that it's kind of ridiculous right now, considering the immense time investment players put into their PCs on Armageddon I would think it was actually prudent to reveal every bit of the crimcode - or at least where it's such an instantaneous unavoidable death sentence -  so great PCs don't wind up dead in ways that staff themselves, plus everyone else, thinks sucks.

[Riev]

Re: Ath~

I understand that it's policy on this game not to reveal anything on code information whatsoever, but if the staff really truly agrees that it's kind of ridiculous right now, considering the immense time investment players put into their PCs on Armageddon, I would think it was actually prudent to reveal every bit of the crimcode - or at least where it's such an instantaneous unavoidable death sentence -  so PCs don't wind up dead in ways that the staff themselves thinks sucks.

I don't need to know when crimcode is off, or what rooms 'might have someone who sees me commit a crime' or anything. I think, however, that its prudent to know that if you flee from arrest, your arrest flag is turned off. Or that you might think you can get away from that one soldier, but have knowledge that soldiers WILL spawn around them and gib you. That's the kind of stuff that, while may be expected in a world like this, is NOT expected in a GAME like this.

[DumbMemeingLoser]

When half giant soldiers get involved things get messy. I also think half giant soldiers should be removed, and only be present at the gates. As it is, they're fucking everywhere and it's stupid considering they're meant to be rare.

+1 to this. The code isn't sophisticated enough to properly portray the consequences of leaving HGs unattended with the apparent instruction to gank anyone they suspect is a criminal.

[Refugee]

Re: Ath~

I understand that it's policy on this game not to reveal anything on code information whatsoever. I do! But, if the staff really truly agrees that it's kind of ridiculous right now, considering the immense time investment players put into their PCs on Armageddon I would think it was actually prudent to reveal every bit of the crimcode - or at least where it's such an instantaneous unavoidable death sentence -  so great PCs don't wind up dead in ways that staff themselves, plus everyone else, thinks sucks.

I agree with this 100%. 

[nauta]

Re: crimcode transparencey) Yes, please!  It is a mechanics thing, not a lore thing.

That said, no matter what system we adopt, there will be those who will find ways of exploiting it -- which I think is something that might motivate keeping it opaque. 

It at least is what in part motivates my ideas in the OP of a minimal proactive crimcode and a maximal retroactive crimcode: you can't game the 'wanted' system (as proposed) -- it will get reported and (high-ranked AOD and templar) PCs can decide what to do about it.

At present, having played a rinther and seen my share of dubious things, there are oodles of ways of gaming the coded crimcode responses.

But like I said, even a new system will have ways of exploiting the system.

To get back to the topic -- or the topic I want, namely: what would the ideal crimcode system look like:

I think a minimal automated system would be the ideal.  Shift the response to the PCs via the wanted reports.  If a response is needed from the world, staff could animate via the wish command.

The pros would be: less messy; less chance of strange friendly fire situations; more interaction with PCs.

Would it be less exploitable?  I'm not really sure.

It'd be kind of cool too: criminals would have to find refuge in the wilds or in the rinth if they get flagged, and not be able to return until they bribe an official.

One thing for sure is: crimcode is a complicated beast.

[Ath]

Re: Ath~

I understand that it's policy on this game not to reveal anything on code information whatsoever. I do! But, if the staff really truly agrees that it's kind of ridiculous right now, considering the immense time investment players put into their PCs on Armageddon I would think it was actually prudent to reveal every bit of the crimcode - or at least where it's such an instantaneous unavoidable death sentence -  so great PCs don't wind up dead in ways that staff themselves, plus everyone else, thinks sucks.

I agree with this 100%.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree.  Crimcode works as it is intended, and I am only speaking for myself in most cases.  Does crimcode have some quirks?  Yes, and with those quirks and those that have to deal with them, appropriate warnings are posted in clan forums.  Yes, it can be a bit ruthless, staff does understand this, but we also know that there are those out there that if you post how it all works, others will find holes and then abuse them.

So no, we won't post how it fully works... as this is primarily an RP mud, it works in the manner intended for it.  Either way, most have figured out in one way or another the basics of how it works.  Don't attack someone in public with Soldiers around, they will defend a citizen.  Oh and if you resist arrest, the soldiers will react appropriately.  Not to come across as rude, but many think that it's all sorts of broken, I don't think it is for the harsh world that is Zalanthas.  I just personally think it could be improved upon, but I know what kind of undertaking a project like that would entail and I'd rather see our volunteer coders put their time into items they feel are needed over others.  Feedback is always being taken, so maybe come time a project will be put together to improve crimcode.

Please don't ask for mechanics to be revealed.  It won't happen, as this game is intended to focus on Roleplaying, not mechanics.  Mechanics that are necessary for players are put into the documentation.  Mechanics that are intended to be a mystery and not have full explanation that can be found out in game, are intended just for that... to be found out in game.  Crimcode is one of those facets, your character CAN figure it out in game, if they wish to put in the risk and effort to figure it out.

As always, if something happens with any part of the game that doesn't seem to be intended, please put in a request in the Bug category so it can be investigated.  Please use the Bug Request in cases where it is more detrimental, while you can use the BUG command for minor incidents.

[Malifaxis]

Zalanthan cops are not going to come in and ask for ID.
Zalanthan cops are not going to be concerned with getting the right man.
Zalanthan cops are not even interested in bringing people to jail.

Zalanthan cops are interested in making everything peaceful again with the quickest solution possible so that the nobles aren't bothered and the peasants do not riot.  Usually that peace is made at the end of a blade.

[WarriorPoet]

Crimcode as it is now is awful, says me, but unless you are actively trying to get slaughtered it is fairly easy to survive. Much easier than some of the black-holes from the past. Mad because a soldier killed you after your 4th flee fail? Try staring in horror as a carru reeled you over and over as 30 days played goes squish and there was NOTHING to be done. Good old days!

[Ath]

Crimcode as it is now is awful, says me, but unless you are actively trying to get slaughtered it is fairly easy to survive. Much easier than some of the black-holes from the past. Mad because a soldier killed you after your 4th flee fail? Try staring in horror as a carru reeled you over and over as 30 days played goes squish and there was NOTHING to be done. Good old days!

I'll be honest here... you should just go to jail. It could lead to a great RP experience.

Zalanthan cops are not going to come in and ask for ID.
Zalanthan cops are not going to be concerned with getting the right man.
Zalanthan cops are not even interested in bringing people to jail.

Zalanthan cops are interested in making everything peaceful again with the quickest solution possible so that the nobles aren't bothered and the peasants do not riot.  Usually that peace is made at the end of a blade.

This is very accurate.  Soldiers could really care less about the person they are dragging in or who is causing an issue... or will end up causing more work for a Templar, that has better shit to worry about.