Money Denominations

[a french mans shirt]

I'm not suggesting any change to the current coin code.

But for god's sake, we need denominations in the culture for allanaki coins. Make counting them and buying anything more than 20 coins a little less ridiculous.

What do you think?

[Patuk]

I think using obsidian for coinage is something no primitive culture would ever have come up with, and that coins are a great convenience as-is.

[Teacup Kitten]

give (passing a small weighted pouch) pouch person
give (extending a weighty bag over) bag person
give (hauling a heavy, filled bag) bag person

I play it by weight, it seems a little more realistic, me thinks.

[Feco]

We already use "small" and "large" so we can avoid talking about large numbers.

Adding more denominations of Sid will just make it mechanically more annoying.  Plus, I like a shitload of money weighing a lot.  Harsh world and all.

[Riev]

half small, small, Runner's Con, half a large, a large, a large and (number) ex: a large and five

some people use "fifteen small" as far as 1500 coins in 15 small stacks.

Denominations wouldn't work too well, though I'd certainly like to see costs and yields slashed in half. Like the American dollar initially being based on gold reserves, Zalanthan coin is supposed to be the water-purchasing-power of an entity.

[Miradus]

I'd like to see more trade done in jewels.

I'll take two garnets for that cuirass, or a diamond for that kukri.

I have the most fun when bargaining and dealing across cultural boundaries, such as with the Sun Runners. Mostly because the different groups aren't interested in raw "sid" but rather something they can't purchase in the shops that the other side can produce.

[Jihelu]

I'd like to see more trade done in jewels.

I'll take two garnets for that cuirass, or a diamond for that kukri.

I have the most fun when bargaining and dealing across cultural boundaries, such as with the Sun Runners. Mostly because the different groups aren't interested in raw "sid" but rather something they can't purchase in the shops that the other side can produce.

I'd just say:
Support that more for trading/bartering/tribals as opposed to city based trade.
Hell
You can prob convince the right person to make a trade of X item for X amount of gems.
(Also thats a shitty trade, those garnets for that cuirass)

[Reiloth]

The interesting aspect of a barter system is there's no real good way to judge if you got a 'good deal'. For a sheep farmer, trading sheep ain't a big deal because they've got a lot of sheep and need other objects/animals to sustain themselves. For people who don't have sheep, but a bunch of the other stuff, hey, sheep!

The PCs i've played that relied on a sort of barter-heavy system, be they a Tribal or Rinthi, I think had a harder and possibly more rewarding time surviving in Zalanthas. The emphasis on barter also sort of conflicts or moves away from 'Jobs that Pay Sid'. This includes the automated salting, or just the idea of 'automated hunting'.

So while I appreciate the barter system where it exists, it also doesn't seem feasible in a city the size of Allanak (I mean, maybe ICly it's possible, but from a game economy standpoint, I don't know if it is.)

As far as denominations go, when i've played Nobles/Templars, I sometimes drop a 'few large chits' or some sort of bigger hunk of pressed obsidian when i'm dealing with massive amounts of coin (5k+). It'd be cool if things like that were around (The 10,000 Sid Bill), but I dunno if it's really needed.

[a french mans shirt]

I read a post by someone who liked to play Stormers, they said that the mark of an outsider was that they would often offer sid for things during pc trades. And honestly that makes sense; what with pearls, spice and unique animal bits in that area, and the fact that a good number of pcs stick themselves in Storm and don't leave. Of course, they could have been playing an elf, a rogue, basically someone who might find themselves in a position where sid doesn't matter as much as getting their hands on spice (like muls, who have to have spice occasionally.)

I feel like chit trading and payment should be a more common part of unaffiliated commoner life as compared to being employed by a merchant or noble house. I just would like my unaffiliateds to feel poor, unless they bust their butt in the flats or something.

Perhaps glass, instead of paying a fortune at the office of the mines, should be able to get you chits at the office. Maybe obsidian too, although it pays an amount that I'm comfortable with if it stays the same.

For every huge chunk of glass, you get a full waterskin of good water, or a certain amount of cooked meat, randomly chosen between the two. For every small chunk, half the amount of meat, or a knife that you can sell five of to the shop or use, or a small chunk of amber, randomly chosen. Jewelers and dagger makes can use the amber, or you could sell it. Remove the one deposit limit for the office, where you can bring one deposit each of glass or sid and then the city doesn't want anymore for the day. I mean really, who's going to amass twelve waterskins? And this lets more than one pc miner work every day, as many as the game can hold really.

The reason I started this thread was because when I pay three small to get in the byn or for a gorget or something, an image of an old woman at the grocery store paying in pennies for thirty dollars worth of groceries comes to mind. In reality, you would be standing there for an hour paying the guy, but no one ever does this and there hasn't been a solution yet. It hurts my immersion, and I thought there might be some way to fix it.

[Jingo]

Cowry shells.

[Jihelu]

I'd rather be paid in money for work.
Not chits that I can use to get fancy water or meat.
Money

[KankWhisperer]

Stable hands won't accept trade.
Apartments won't accept trade.
Water sellers won't accept trade.

If that were on the table,  then this conversation might be interesting.

[Armaddict]

While I think there are many parts of the economy that could benefit from attention, I don't think this part or those parts mentioned are anywhere near the top of that list.

Using coin is fine for where we are, and discussion of alternative payments and currencies is needless complication of a system that still needs streamlining and convergence onto a documented norm (average 'expected' income of a PC).

In my opinion, scaling (non-arbitrary values for items) and diminishing returns rather than quantity limits are where this starts, and we can move on to 'forms of money' afterwards.

[Jingo]

Actually the barter system as envisioned by middle school textbooks never actually existed.

[Erythil]

I think it is not unreasonable to assume that ten and one-hundred piece coins exist.

Otherwise carrying all that shit around would be pretty much impossible.  Imagine a bag with four thousand pennies.

[Lizzie]

Actually the barter system as envisioned by middle school textbooks never actually existed.

I don't remember what was in our textbooks back in Junior High (we didn't have middle school) about the subject. But I do know my family history. So here's a couple stories about bartering and denominations.

1st story, nice and quick: When the VW Bug was in its heyday in the early-1970's, my parents went down the street to the dealer, a valise in hand, and presented it to the salesman. They bought a brand-new 1970-something Volkswagen Beetle with single dollar bills, fresh from the bank. It was just under $3000 singles, and fit just fine into a valise.


2nd story, long: My grandfather was a dentist during the depression. His patients often didn't have money to pay him, but he felt an obligation to his community to maintain/repair their dental health. He wasn't wealthy either, he was just starting out and had bills to pay. With no one giving him money, how was he supposed to feed his family? Well that was easy. Some of his patients had cows. They'd bring him fresh milk or cheese. Some of his patients had chickens. He never wanted for eggs or soup stock. He was up to his ears (pun intended) in corn and other vegetables. The cobbler gave them shoes, the ice man filled their ice chest.  Whenever money -did- come in, my grandmother would deposit it in its entirety in the bank. That was used to cover expenses that required actual money: the mortgage, the electric bill, the phone (my grandfather was listed on one of the very first-ever published, local public telephone books in the country. It was a single page.).  The entire community went to my grandfather for dental care, so my family ate well, lived reasonably well, wanted for very little. Once the slump was over, he was able to give back to the community that treated him so well, and started offering free dental care to any child whose family couldn't afford to pay for it. No chickens necessary. Between my grandmother's banking every single penny that wasn't needed for monthly "money-only" bills, and the community's amazing support of their dentist, my family prospered. My grandparents moved to a fairly tony section of the next town, only four houses away from the prestigious Yale golf course, and was able to provide all three of their daughters with four years of college, and the wedding expenses for each of them.

That's how successful people did business during the depression; they exchanged goods and services for more goods and services, and banked any actual money that came in. If they did it right, their cash expenses were minimal, and they never went hungry and always had clothing, coal or wood for their stoves, hay and shelter for their horses, even trolley tokens, all courtesy of bartering.

[Miradus]

Bartering is alive and well in rural Texas.

Just this week I agreed to barter my calf pulling for a quarter steer next March. Last month I bartered a broken down RV for the materials to build a porch. Same month I agreed to barter fixing a neighbor's chainsaw in exchange for a half cord of mesquite.

The general premise is that money is for paying bills and the government and if you CAN barter than that's the preferred exchange.

[Jingo]

That's not. The barter sys... nevermind.

[Miradus]

Then I guess I don't understand the barter system.

[a french mans shirt]

I wish the barter system was more prevalent in the game, although that'd require adding a lot more cheap items which would be usually copies of existing items (like, instead of 'a large bag' you'd have 'a sandcloth bag' 'a large bag' and 'a chalton hide bag'.) That way you're far more likely to trade a bag for a torch.

I know I'm the only one who's interested in an influx of low-class items so its just a thought.

Variety in general goods would have been pretty nice, though--- different bags of different sizes and materials, different torches, we have many candles but those are useless for walking anywhere. I would have thought fire-striking flint would be a go-to item for people to rp lighting torches and candles (maybe one day it will be required) but I've only ever seen one for sale in a chargen shop.

[Bushranger]

A grain, a pinch, a knot, a thal-knot and a brick. Bam perfect currency

[nessalin]

Currencies are something we've taken a run at a few times.  Both new denominations for the Allanaki obsidian and currencies for other cities/merchant house company scrip.

There are a few issues.

Lots and lots (and lots and lots) of scripts only key off of a number value stored on each character which represents how much money they have.  These scripts would all have to be updated in some way (calculate how much money you would have under the old system with new denominations, convert new currencies (if allowable) to old currency, and so on).

Banks - accept and store the new values.  Old values would need to be updated to new values for existing accounts.

Shopkeepers - convert the denominations/currencies you're offering into a raw number to compare to the value of the item you're buying (or the other way around), rather than keying off the number as being the universal 'coins' value.  Possibly extended to restrict to some currencies for depending on who the shop keeper is or where they operate. (Some may only accept one currency, a regional currency, denominations under a certain size (No $100 bills, please)).


That list is a small start, and certainly can be accomplished, but it isn't a simple thing, either.