Discussion of Read/Write changes.

[Nathvaan]

Please feel free to discuss this implementation: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg964539.html#msg964539

[dravage]

Thank you for the huge amount of work that has clearly gone into this. Looks fantastic!

[Barsook]

Thank you for the huge amount of work that has clearly gone into this. Looks fantastic!

[a french mans shirt]

Jesus, you guys did a lot of work. Good job.

[Seeker]

So, so much thanks.


Seeker

[Jihelu]

Finally, I can go out and rea-


Maybe some day.

[Lizzie]

Tres sexy. Love what you've explained so far, thank you so much. No idea if I'll ever play a PC with R/W any time soon but it sounds like everyone who has it or will have it in the future is going to be in for a huge treat!

[Zenith]

This is an AMAZING change! And I LOVE that books have gotten bigger.

I can hardly believe so much has been written in twenty years, and wish I could read every last page of it.

[flurry]

I haven't looked at the change yet, but I will say this is a really important change and thank you for taking this on.

(Is the editor also different now? Is that reflected in chargen too?)

[Ath]

What I love about this is we can actually more easily have in game libraries.  One of the big things about the old system is we were scared of crashing the damn server due to books.  This should hopefully fix that and allow for massive amounts of books in one place.  *droools*

[najdorf]

hello, perhaps I am missing something here. Is this only a code change (improvement) for those with read/write ability? Or has there been a drastic change so mundanes can now get involved in literacy?

[LauraMars]

:O

amazing.

<3 <3

Does this mean that the R/W skill is going to see more use in the future as a tool for non-noble/merchant commoners....maybe with a SCRIBE extended subguild?

[650Booger]

after reading I was a bit unclear, will there be R/W for other languages besides sirihish?

[The Warshaper]

I think so.

Your skill with the language is now taken into account when writing in books and reading from books.  It will be scrambled in exactly the same way that partly understanding a spoken language works.

Looks like all languages are supported...

[Nathvaan]

I haven't looked at the change yet, but I will say this is a really important change and thank you for taking this on.

(Is the editor also different now? Is that reflected in chargen too?)

Nope, the editor is the same as it always has been sorry to say!

[Nathvaan]

hello, perhaps I am missing something here. Is this only a code change (improvement) for those with read/write ability? Or has there been a drastic change so mundanes can now get involved in literacy?

This was a code change/improvement for those with the skill.  Also ground for for allowing us to add features that I think everyone will like.  As far as mundanes getting read/write, not at the moment but at the very least the groundwork for that being a possibility in the future has be laid.  No promises though!

[Nathvaan]

after reading I was a bit unclear, will there be R/W for other languages besides sirihish?

I am not going to go into any particulars on what languages are covered but know that the changes are for all languages that have a written form not just one specific language.

[mansa]

Have you considered publishing any of the previous written work on the website?

[Barsook]

Have you considered publishing any of the previous written work on the website?

If not, please do! There is a lot of history in those textes that are possibly lost in the game world.

[Riev]

Have you considered publishing any of the previous written work on the website?

If not, please do! There is a lot of history in those textes that are possibly lost in the game world.

I'd third that, I imagine there is a decent amount of "lost" in game knowledge that could end up being done as Submissions (I can think of a particular book my Jihaen used to read a lot about the Copper war)

[Nathvaan]

Have you considered publishing any of the previous written work on the website?

If not, please do! There is a lot of history in those textes that are possibly lost in the game world.

I'd third that, I imagine there is a decent amount of "lost" in game knowledge that could end up being done as Submissions (I can think of a particular book my Jihaen used to read a lot about the Copper war)

I wouldn't count that out of the possibilities in the future but no meaningful discussions about that have been had to date.  Right now I am focusing more on getting this code bug free and then looking at additional potential features.

[Thunkkin]

I'm not even able to play these days (or regularly for a very long time) ... but thank you. This stuff is exciting to watch from afar.

[Suhuy]

I think wide open literacy would remove the mystique behind reading and writing, as well as the appreciation for it. And if there were a subguild that allowed literacy, literate commoners would immediately become a dime a dozen. I don't really know how many closet literate commoners there are, but for me a simple solution is to allow more through special apps (assuming they're as virtually non-existent as I believe). With the opportunity to now marry into a merchant house, the chance for a form of literacy to become available is now within many human PCs' grasp. And I think that's really cool. But the reality of Zalanthas, putting aside the fact that there is a mandate against learning to read and write, is that there just wouldn't be a great deal of motivation to become literate in the first place. Being literate would be a deep dark secret that is almost on par with being a defiler, and ultimately there just wouldn't be a large scale need for it in the survivalist world of Zalanthas. If a change were implemented to increase the literate population on a large scale, I think it would take away certain thematic elements from the game. Moreover, it might even require a change in the world setting. There would have to be a reversal of the current destroyed state of Zalanthas, trees would grow in more abundance and civilizations would advance to a level where not just the elite, but even the every day person could learn to read and write. Rain would fall, metal would be more readily available, and Zalanthas would effectively not be Zalanthas any more.

[Riev]

The extreme sensationalism of Suhuy's last bit there, I do agree. A decent portion of the playerbase that is still active, is active because they are by and large... storytellers. If a subguild suddenly granted access to R/W languages, while the initial excitement may die out, it would become flooded and suddenly everyone would be clamoring to learn, if only to write a book that "cements themselves as legends".


I WOULD, however, supremely enjoy sponsored role scribes. Delivering messages, writing contracts, etc. I think it'd be great if you were doing some non-official work for House Tor, and they give you a bound scroll just in case what you're doing gets you caught by a Templar. You hand them the scroll, assuming its a get-out-of-jail-free card, but really Lady Tor had her scribe write down that you're a bumbling idiot and if you're caught to just execute and them come over for tea. Or maybe that's what the SCRIBE wrote, because he thinks you're an asshole, and Lady Tor doesn't pay too close attention.



I think it'd be great.

[Kankman]

I just want to be able to burn books.

[650Booger]

Does a piece of writing automatically identify who wrote it?  if not, it would be really fun to create false messages and sign them with other PC's names.  I can see some real counter-intelligence applications for that.

but I agree that it wouldn't be proper to have -everybody- suddenly able to R/W.

[Feco]

These changes rule.

[Nathvaan]

Does a piece of writing automatically identify who wrote it?  if not, it would be really fun to create false messages and sign them with other PC's names.  I can see some real counter-intelligence applications for that.

but I agree that it wouldn't be proper to have -everybody- suddenly able to R/W.

I may have been somewhat obtuse in explaining how writing will work with regards to identification.  We (staff) can identify who wrote what and when.  The characters with read/write do not have the ability to know who wrote them other than who signed the pages (right or wrong).

I can pretty safely say there is no intention to suddenly have everybody being able to read and write.  These changes were needed from an infrastructure perspective and I threw in some feature upgrades for possible future use.

[Barsook]

As some said, I do dig the scribe idea as it could lead to cool plots.

[a french mans shirt]

Special app only, or a couple of subguilds (one for written sirihish, one for written elvish) at high karma levels, sounds good to me. Written elvish sounds like something that the elvish desert tribes would keep, even just to record their legends and great warriors and leaders.

I've always seen the major tablelands tribes as having some small number of literates, but that's just a guess. It would be beneficial for them to do so (to a certain extent, like having an architect in the family), and they are not in danger if they don't do it outside of their tents.

Even if this became a 2-karma subguild, I kind of doubt everyone and their brother would know how to write a couple of months from now. Possessing a skill that, unless you were an aide or the merchant house guy, would instantly get you killed upon the discovery that you had it, with no obvious benefit to having it, does not seem like something people would try *for the awesomes of it.* I mean, really, what benefit is there in this particular world for a commoner to know how to read and write? The detriments are many, and you'd have to be a double-agent for Tuluk or just against Allanak, and be delivering a scroll yourself, to make use of your gift in sekrit ways. You would then become suspect after you used the information in the scroll--- because guess what genius, it was sealed with the seal of House Tor. They -always- are.

Whenever I play an elf babe or a witch babe or whatever, I get the sekrit catcalls for go-to-bed-with-me from human normal men about once a RL month, when I play a lot. That's one of those things we all know will get you banished, whipped and/or killed. So, that's how many literate people I kind of expect to be around after the first few months when everyone's tried it. About one new guy a month. That's not so bad. I could be wrong, but this is my expectations.

[MarshallDFX]

Maybe really basic questions because I'm not in the know...

In the old world, would it have been not codedly possible to learn to read without staff intervention?  Is this no longer the case in the new world? 

When an illiterate character uncovers a buried cache of books in the desert, does this change how we might codedly interact with them?

[wizturbo]

This is probably the most exciting change I've seen in Armageddon in ten years.  It isn't overt, or immediate, like the extended subguilds or whatever...  it's the long game where the impact of this could be staggering. 

[Hauwke]

I suspect that with this change, people will certainly try to find a good reason to have books on hand. Not that it would be hard to find one.

[WanderingOoze]

When an illiterate character uncovers a buried cache of books in the desert, does this change how we might codedly interact with them?

craft book 2.book 3.book 4.book into campfire

[Jihelu]

Do people in this thread think reading is as easy as finding a book and looking at it for a year.

This change is cool. Real cool.
This change also only effects a small amount of the playerbase.

[Nathvaan]

Maybe really basic questions because I'm not in the know...

In the old world, would it have been not codedly possible to learn to read without staff intervention?  Is this no longer the case in the new world? 

When an illiterate character uncovers a buried cache of books in the desert, does this change how we might codedly interact with them?

Correct, it would not have been possible without staff interaction and this is still the case now. 

This change was about making books more manageable and accessible as well as laying the ground work for other features in the future.

I don't see this changing the way you interact with the book at all.  Your character might burn then, use them to wipe their arse or try and sell them to someone who can read to make a few coins!

[MarshallDFX]

Do people in this thread think reading is as easy as finding a book and looking at it for a year.

if you mean me, no, I was just wondering how it worked before.

Code Select Expand

You rent 'Hooked on Phonics - Reading with Tektolnes" from the Allanak Library.

[Hauwke]

Lol, I suspect it might be as easy as getting a book and looking at it for a year to learn to read. Your character might get it wrong but hey reading.

[wizturbo]

Repeated use of the 'teach' command granting the ability to read/write would be a fantastic addition to the game.  Since virtually all PC's that start with read/write are sponsored roles, I don't expect the abuse to be too much of a concern, and any such abuse could be dealt with through IC means (see: it's a death sentence for a commoner).

[MarshallDFX]

Repeated use of the 'teach' command granting the ability to read/write would be a fantastic addition to the game.  Since virtually all PC's that start with read/write are sponsored roles, I don't expect the abuse to be too much of a concern, and any such abuse could be dealt with through IC means (see: it's a death sentence for a commoner).

Yes I guess this was the genesis of my staff intervention question.

[a french mans shirt]

Are there any plans by staff for making reading/writing for nonsponsored folks automated in any way? Like a secret cult that worships the evil snake god and hides from Tektolnes, also the head guy and his elite section know how to read and write sirihish.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm not even able to play these days (or regularly for a very long time) ... but thank you. This stuff is exciting to watch from afar.

Same here. I love this shit. Curiously, have you considered support for non-language entries into books? FOr instance, when I wrote books, I'd throw in line dividers and all sorts of artistic flourishes. Those didn't involve language, and it would be neat to have a hash system to denote such a thing, like $$--------$$ where the line remains unscrambled.

[Erythil]

This looks great.

I totally think, for the record, that lifesworn aides of Senior rank should learn how to write.

[Barsook]

I had a character who was close of learning to read and write in the merchant's.

[Nathvaan]

This looks great.

I totally think, for the record, that lifesworn aides of Senior rank should learn how to write.

Thank you!  I do just to make sure it is abundantly clear,  the changes I did were code changes and were in no way a change to the IC way read/write work.  One should still understand this help file is still completely accurate and to my knowledge there is no expectation that will change.

Code (help write) Select Expand


   Please note that literacy is illegal or unknown for most people on
the face of Zalanthas. While nobles and templars are trained in the
arts of reading and writing and the Merchant Houses pass along a
knowledge of how to write the trade-ciphers associated with Cavilish to
their agents and merchants, it is considered treason for common
citizens to possess such knowledge within the city-states of Zalanthas.


[Nathvaan]

I'm not even able to play these days (or regularly for a very long time) ... but thank you. This stuff is exciting to watch from afar.

Same here. I love this shit. Curiously, have you considered support for non-language entries into books? FOr instance, when I wrote books, I'd throw in line dividers and all sorts of artistic flourishes. Those didn't involve language, and it would be neat to have a hash system to denote such a thing, like $$--------$$ where the line remains unscrambled.

I have considered similar things, nothing pending though.  Believe it or not, it's an inordinate amount of work to make changes to this kind of stuff!

[Erythil]

This looks great.

I totally think, for the record, that lifesworn aides of Senior rank should learn how to write.

Thank you!  I do just to make sure it is abundantly clear,  the changes I did were code changes and were in no way a change to the IC way read/write work.  One should still understand this help file is still completely accurate and to my knowledge there is no expectation that will change.

Code (help write) Select Expand


   Please note that literacy is illegal or unknown for most people on
the face of Zalanthas. While nobles and templars are trained in the
arts of reading and writing and the Merchant Houses pass along a
knowledge of how to write the trade-ciphers associated with Cavilish to
their agents and merchants, it is considered treason for common
citizens to possess such knowledge within the city-states of Zalanthas.


I'm aware of the fact that's nothing changed, but I suppose I'm just taking the opportunity to suggest that perhaps a few more people should get to make use of the new code!  I think there'd be more books getting made if books had an even slightly wider audience, and aide roles don't really have a lot of perks compared to some others...