I Miss The War: Discussion on How To War

[nauta]

I too miss the war, but I'm not sure how you could get the war back, without re-opening Tuluk.  I thought I'd start a thread on it, see what bright people had to say.

Here are some points for discussion.

1. PC opponents.  Part of what worked, I think, was that the opponents in the war were PCs.  Not only did this require less staff involvement, but each side was, so to speak, on equal footing (see #2).

2. Diplomacy, aka intelligent (human) opponents.  Pace the gith, what was also nice was knowing that your opponents were as human (or at least as sentient) as you.  One thing about the gith war was that the gith, although PCs, weren't really able to be negotiated with, or talked to, owing to, I assume, them being gith.  Hence, the main strategies during the gith war were combat and ruining resources.  (Which is fun, but it's only one aspect of the War -- there was, in short, a lack of diplomacy options, at least vis-a-vis the opponent.

3. City-wide.  Each city-state was united on the issue.

4. Omnipresent.  From the lowest (newbie) grebber to the highest templar, the fact of the war was present.  While you could RP this however you wanted, it offered a nice hook for new characters: how does my PC understand the war?  am I a patriot?  a traitor?  do I not even care?  Moreover, even tribals and desert elves and Kuraci could get involved in the war.  (Again, to use the gith war as a counterpoint, there was little motivation for people not directly affected by the gith to get involved, namely, Allanak.)

5. Equal Footing.  See #1.  Both sides were, as it were, on equal footing, even if there were differences in approach/resources.

While the war doesn't limit any other RP opportunities -- you can still have intra-city strife, corruption in the templarate and among the soldiers, criminal elements, etc. -- it did offer us all something as part of the background.

Now, that said, I dropped into this game towards the tail end of the war -- and from what I gather from previous discussions on the topic, some people found the war frustrating because it didn't go anywhere/nothing happened.  To that, I'd have to say that the war was more of a feeling, a kind of flavor, which, on occasion, did manifest in actual coded skirmishes/plots.  And that's probably good enough.

Now, that said, I'm not sure how you could implement the war without opening Tuluk, or at least have all five factors above.  You could, for instance, have a group of rebels, but these would not (5) be on equal footing, nor would it be (3) city-wide and (4) omnipresent.  The gith came close -- even if it was a localised conflict -- but even a global gith conflict, i.e., one against Allanak, you'd still be faced with an opponent who wasn't (2) intelligent/capable of diplomacy.

P.S. I also think the gith war was a great idea, and, having witnessed a lot of it, the idea of PC giths seems like it has a lot of promise to it.

[dravage]

The question is really, "What did you like from the war that we can't have now?" If it's PC vs PC intrigue, politics, grand scale combat, skirmishes, a clash of cultures, well technically all that is still feasible in the current setting. Tribes can ally, so too can other races (think Thrain), outposts, or GMHs with enough of a goal and means to achieve it.

[evilcabbage]

i think people assume that war is this giant battle with constant strife on either side.


war is logistics. it's plotting supply routes. it's hitting supply routes. the grand conflict rarely happens, it's mostly skirmishes and small battles.

very rarely do huge warfronts happen, especially in this tech level. you would see a lot more skirmishes and small conflicts that led into maybe one or two actual large-scale battles.

[Dresan]

I admit it would be interesting to see how that war would have play out now with the changes to the game(magickal sub-guilds, extended sub-guilds, flame arrows). However its mostly Rose coloured glasses. You only need to go back to those long threads about tuluk to see the one thing that drove people from that city.

Skirmishes, battles, and combat are things we can still do, with NPC tuluk and NPC gith. What I feel is more lacking though is the need for espionage. A war against NPC cannot promote that, what we need is to give organizations/clans more reasons to give a shit about what others are doing or thinking. This is something I miss about tuluk, the theme made propaganda so important. Imagine was important in public. Information especially about the 'enemy' was so much more valuable. Even if you could only use it to make yourself look better. This helped drive more plots.

I've said this before, Allanak has gotten too big and powerful for the game's own good. Its very hard to throw a good plot at it because realistically it feels like nothing can hurt it. Nobles don't need to give a shit about commoners at all. A huge Gith menace driving the tribes out of the Pah, potentially taking over a huge area of land is not even worth lifting a finger for either. This is just really to name a few things.

I know there have been attempts to crack this but at the moment everything in Allanak still feels untouchable and too big to fail.

[Dar]

Espionage war?

How much enjoyment and game awesomeness have you experienced during and after the completion of the Tree Life Burning espionage plot?

[Large Hero]

Actual, coded PVP combat in Armageddon is terrible and badly designed. Definitely not the game's strength.

What I'd like to see is PCs on both sides running/contributing to plots that are competitive with the other side's plot.

"The agricultural centers of both city-states are struck by <some bad event>. Who can solve the problem faster, thereby feeding the NPC soldiers and restoring the logistics pipeline for the military?"

PVP can be involved with that, sure.

But anything that is focused on leading to a PCs-vs.-PCs battle scene is just gonna be, in my opinion, not very fun.

"Oh. I got 1-hit by a unit mob during screen scroll. OK."

"Oh. This small-scale battle was decided because the other city-state happened to have 3 buff half-giant PCs. OK."

[Dresan]

I think everything that needed to be said about the spy plot has been said already in the long winded threads of that time.

However, you used to be able to sell allanak tavern rumours to nobles in tuluk for some good coins, and really profit from if you could bring in more information. Just to see if there was any oportunity to create a plot to stick it to the enemy.  This sort of thing was vital during the copper wars too.

I remember early in the gith wars, I tried to offer a information, exotic goods, long lost knowlege, gems, long lost treature and the potential to create plots outside the city with the hopes of some backing. You think they gave a shit? No. Their aide was the only one really sad about it.  But  why would that noble care? Nothing really effects the city or their house, they were already wealthy and rich beyond belief often without any well defined responsibilities.  I remember the information I did bring back to the city about what was going on in the pah was met with more curiousity than any interest to get involved.

Its more of a hit and miss thing now if you ask me, in that it isn't as relevant as it used to be.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I don't see why there isn't, now with an IG closing of Tuluk, a huge movement to become imperialist Allanak again. Anybody who discusses history IG will tell you Allanak owned half of the world, it would be great to see them setting up fortresses all over (which need to be nothing more than even a relatively guarded, shady, save/quit room).

I think it would be fun to be able to play a patriot, and sending out AOD and Byn units to clear out the area, or bolster the defenses at fort Kha'zin. It would be cool to suddenly get a startled way from somebody over on one of the rim forts about how "They are at the walls!" Or "we haven't heard anything from the far eastern post and all our supply cart hasn't returned. go check it out." And suddenly you are rallying everybody to dig a few guys out of a hole.  It would make the city-state feel more like a political power concerned with gain and taking advantage of an isolationist move and also nicely set up a house of cards to be knocked down again when/if anyone decides to turn Tuluk (Or any world power really) into antagonists again. Also it would be cool to add some notches to that world history belt.

Whether people disliked the war or not, does not mean that it cannot be done differently or better, or that there even needs to be a war for those aspects to be around. Tell me I'm wrong.

[Refugee]

(A lot of brilliant stuff)

I loved all of this!  I think imperialist Allanak might work.

OK.  I've been sitting here trying to come up with something profound and insightful as to why I loved the war so much, and why I miss it so much.  Without much luck.

There doesn't seem to be much of an enemy to work against anymore, or much of a will to work against the enemies that do/can exist.  It's pretty frustrating to try to work something up House vs. House, even when there is every provocation.  Nobody really wants to do it.  There's a lot of stuff that you would think would work that doesn't really work.  It's not much fun to fight a war alone, for me anyway.  I am a team player and the war made us into teams. 

With the war, you could sit in a bar and start badmouthing the opposite side, people would join in, and you might dream up some plot that probably never got done, but just the talking and the planning was fun.  Maybe someone would take a different view and you could use that to think he was a traitor, and do things to screw him over, or even kill him for it.  It gave purpose and reason.

Sometimes something -would- happen, from one side or the other, and no matter what side you were on, there was RP to be had.  If you were on the side of the attacked, say they burned a building or something in your city, no matter who you were, there was RP.  You could just sit and complain about it, or you could alter your PCs behavior to watch out for the culprits, or you could get up a group and hunt them even if all you were was a tok hunter.  If you were on the side of the attacker, you could bask in the stories, and buy drinks to celebrate, and remember.  There was a collective feeling of being part of something big, something important, all pulling together to do something (even if they really weren't).

Maybe you would just run across another PC from the opposing side, and maybe you would fight, or maybe just give each other shit, or maybe plot treason together, or maybe just run...I loved the tension of being in the other city, or the other lands, and having to watch out for people who rode near.

I guess I like playing patriots, thinking back over my PCs over all my MUDs.  And you can still play a patriot without the war.  But I miss the war.  It made it better.

It hasn't really been so long since the war petered out, I guess.  But it's hard to keep that feeling and get it back. 

For people who venture outside the city, a lot of these feelings could be experienced by traveling into the Tablelands (assuming you don't belong there).   But the tribes come to the city without problems.  So it's still not the same, you see.  And there's no collective enmity for them...not really. 

Could imperalistic Allanak bring this back?  I think so.  The tribes would unite against Allanak, raiding outposts and parties, the city-bound would hear of the atrocities and bind together to rail against them and support people who fought.  I think it could work.  I've never played in the tribes, so maybe it's something they couldn't muster the numbers to support?  Is that so?

[Desertman]

I'm much less interested in grand pre-scripted wars.

One of the most jarring things I ever saw in relation to this was when a staff message went out to everyone fighting at Tyn Dashra to the affect of:

"Hey all of you should probably stop fighting if you want to see what is about to happen!".

Then we all awkwardly stopped fighting so that we could watch the staff ran show.

The translation I got was, "The fact you are even here fighting doesn't matter. What's about to happen in this area was pre-decided so really nothing you are doing matters.".


I would rather see more small-scale battles with definitive victory and defeat perimeters in place and dynamic outcomes left open and possible based on who wins and how they win (if anyone does).


Big wars can be fun. I enjoyed fighting in Tyn Dashra, but, I enjoyed it about as much as I would ALSO enjoy just reading about it on the history page.


Smaller goals for smaller PC led groups that don't need massive NPC Untouchables Oversight deciding the pre-determined outcomes of the battles with actual payoffs for the victors.


Another example of this would be the raiders that were setup in the salt flats for the T'zai Byn to go and battle a while back. I was there for this. The T'zai Byn lost that battle. They absolutely lost. BUT, it was pre-determined that we were supposed to win and find the "chest of loot" at the end.

It was setup magnificently. It was really a great effort on staff's part. It was a smaller scale battle where the PC's actually determined the outcome......until we didn't.

We lost. We got the fuck beat out of us.

But, we were still allowed to "win". An NPC mul was animated in the camp and he saved our comrades (those still alive) and set fire to the camp and allowed us to get to the loot we were supposed to get to if we won.

We weren't even allowed to properly lose because it wasn't pre-scripted that way.



Anyways, yes to wars, but not grand scale NPC driven and determined wars....smaller PC driven and determined battles with real rewards for success and real chances of failure based entirely upon PC actions.


(Just to give staff props, the rescue if Iancu Oash from his wagon that fell into a chasm in a dangerous place was a great example of a player driven major battle. Sure it was against dozens and dozens of spiders and not "people" (I want to say it came out to over 120 spiders by the time it was done, and not just regular spiders), but I really felt like getting everyone out alive was the product of player actions. It was absolutely possible based on the massive numbers being thrown at us that we wouldn't get out alive, and neither would our charges we were there to rescue. We did, and it was a great feeling, and a great payoff for everyone involved, and it was player decided. There were a handful of times during that battle where we were razor thin on the wire of just losing and having massive losses for everyone and having to retreat, but we held out and it was awesome.)

[Riev]

I feel like, when I think of "war" in arm that... yes.. the general idea may be that "Allanak wins this one" but EVEN THEN, as players, the majority of us still get to participate in the fringe stuff. A well-planned war would be railroaded into one of maybe three big outcomes, and just leave the rest as "winnable/failable scenarios" that get run once in a while.

The idea that the fighting at Tyn Dashra meant nothing always put a pit in my stomach, because there was such buildup for "this pre-generated shit is gonna happen". But the leadup to it was still great.

[Desertman]

I think I have been DM'ing for too long. Maybe what I'm thinking about can't exist more often in game because of reasons I don't understand.

I would like to see more outposts of random raiders popping up every now and then for people to go and fight, and maybe they lose, and maybe the product is those raiders get more people to join their cause and they actually get stronger.

Maybe if those raiders beat back a couple of PC forces they get enough clout and numbers to actually branch a second outpost/base somewhere else that threatens another PC interest.

So on and so forth.

If the PC's win they get some interesting/valuable loot. Nothing game breaking but enough to make it worth the trip.

PC led and determined battles, not wars. The benefit in terms of "fun payoff" to the playerbase is the same. We all get together and enjoy having a fight.

The difference is Black Robed/Red Robed Immortal-Ran Templars aren't deciding the outcome/leading the fights and pulling the strings....players are and what players do matters.


I can think of a dozen good examples of plots to run along these lines....maybe because I've ran a lot of them that last many RL years for groups. I don't know. I just don't think we see enough of it.

I think it is absolutely needed more these days now that Tuluk is closed.

2) A kryl nest has been discovered in the tunnels bellow Allanak. Rinthers have started to disappear and a few skirmishes with the things have been reported openly in the alleys. Kryl randomly spawn in certain areas in the rinth until PC's get together to go down and wipe out the nest. The number of kryl IS NOT INFINITE. There is a predetermined number of kryl and the PC's either win, or they do not. If the PC's ignore the problem, the problem continues to get worse and worse and the numbers grow and grow. If/when the PC's find the nest and destroy it they find the remnants of the bodies the kryl had drug back to their nest to feed their queen...along with the discarded goods/loot of the corpses.

3) A rogue rukkian of no small power has somehow managed to erect a fortress of sand in the Red Desert complete with sand minions (sand zombies, basically) to protect his holdings. From here his sand minions go out and raid travelers going through The Red to get their valuables (by killing them) and bring them back to their overlord. The longer people ignore this threat the stronger it actually gets/the more "sand zombies" spawn and cluster in The Red until travel really is a serious concern. Finding the sand fortress is up to the PC's as is figuring out how to take it out. If they do, it collapses and left behind for the players are some interesting things the rukkian himself was maybe using as well as a horde of valuables he had collected from his raiding as loot.


I could go on and on and on.

I'm not looking for deeply laid plots that require fifty paragraphs of planning and explanations.

I don't see why we can't do #3 above, write the room descriptions, and throw it in the game and see what comes of it.

There's two outcomes. Either players ignore it and it gets worse, or they go and win/lose and we take it from there.

I feel like I could put it together and have it up and running in a single Saturday of effort.



(Or maybe it's a thousand times harder to actually do things in the game than I think it is based on my player-only perspective.)

tldr; Huge wars and deeply laid plots and politics and staff involvement and intrigue are great.....but mostly, I just want some player driven good ole' dungeon crawls, because why not? I think we should have one of these more or less running on some level most of the time and a new one to replace it for the playerbase's enjoyment within a couple of months of the last one's closure/resolution.

[a french mans shirt]

Yeah, right now if tuluk remains closed, a war between the cities would require a lot of staff work, when they are probably busy with other plotz.

I was thinking, what about a war between Kurac and Allanak? Just have Kurac get busted for selling spice in the city behind its back. I'd like to see how a war between those two would unfold. Is spice more powerful than the city, or is the city more powerful than the spice? Its not like Kurac really ever hangs out in Allanak. They feel like they need to keep things running in the outpost. Kurac usually has enough people in it so they could run their own shit. To keep staff work low, not plan any actual takeover of the post. And Allanak's powerful still want their spice after the war, so they have an incentive now -not- to completely bitchface the outpost. So just small skirmishes here and there, until Allanak gets bored and restless and wants its spice back.

[Riev]

I like the ideas, D-man, but the issue is that even with all the staff we have... they take breaks. They "staff" for a few hours a week, sometimes, where all they can manage is to keep up to date on reports and bugs/typos/applications.

Not to mention that to add anything like "a new kryl nest" into the game, you have to contend with the bureaucracy of needing not just one person's okay, but like two or three who all keep different hours. Very very few are given the ability to "come up with a plot and see it through" like a DungeonMaster can, because they are storytellers. Their purpose is to push paperwork and plop obstructions in our way.

Then you contend with the solo players who will solo the encounters with their advanced poison code knowledge and ninja tactics, just to ruin the story, or people who will complain that "HOW COULD KRYL BE DOWN THERE THIS WHOLE TIME AND NOBODY KNEW HOW DID THEY SURVIVE THIS PLOT LINE IS STUPID STAFF YOU ARE ALL DUMB AND etc etc etc".

Staff have my sympathies, but I WOULD like to see more "small arcs" that either win, or lose.

[Desertman]

I like the ideas, D-man, but the issue is that even with all the staff we have... they take breaks. They "staff" for a few hours a week, sometimes, where all they can manage is to keep up to date on reports and bugs/typos/applications.

Not to mention that to add anything like "a new kryl nest" into the game, you have to contend with the bureaucracy of needing not just one person's okay, but like two or three who all keep different hours. Very very few are given the ability to "come up with a plot and see it through" like a DungeonMaster can, because they are storytellers. Their purpose is to push paperwork and plop obstructions in our way.

Then you contend with the solo players who will solo the encounters with their advanced poison code knowledge and ninja tactics, just to ruin the story, or people who will complain that "HOW COULD KRYL BE DOWN THERE THIS WHOLE TIME AND NOBODY KNEW HOW DID THEY SURVIVE THIS PLOT LINE IS STUPID STAFF YOU ARE ALL DUMB AND etc etc etc".

Staff have my sympathies, but I WOULD like to see more "small arcs" that either win, or lose.

1) Recruit more staff.
2) Give under-staffers more power if this is really an issue.

I would rather give up a little bit of oversight and virtual power than allow things to become a bit more stagnant than they should at times.

(Of course that may not be the issue at all. It's all speculation and theorizing.)

[650Booger]

I joined the game, I think, shortly after the fall of tuluk.  So I don't know what it was like.  But I think it would be good to have another major city, and hope tuluk reopens some day.

[Dar]

I was under impression that one of the reasons why the previous war never amounted to much was because PEOPLE KEPT DYING!.

The last generation of the Legion kicked ass. They managed to have a core group that got decently trained up, in part because the sargeant knew what he was doing, and were no longer easily perishable at the smallest of RPTs.  At that time, Allanaki militia just kept dying again and again. Without a steady at least a 'somewhat' decently trained core group of Arm and Legion present at the same time, it is difficult to have a war.

You want war events? Join Legion/Arm and dont die.  Hell, you want "military" events? Join a Legion/Arm and dont die. You dont even need a war. If the AoD/Legion is kicking at the same time, some kind of skirmish/event/plot is going to happen.  But if the clan consists of one sponsored role of 5 days played, 1 warrior of 10 days played, and 3 recruits of 3 days played, all of whom fall off their mounts during combat, do not expect any freaking military plots.


I dont think anyone who spent their time indying around a ranger has any ground to stand on, while complaining that there was not enough war related plots during the Nak/Tuluki war.

[Riev]

I dont think anyone who spent their time indying around a ranger has any ground to stand on, while complaining that there was not enough war related plots during the Nak/Tuluki war.

Like three Legionnaires, including a Sergeant that almost joined the Ivory guard, and a Jihaen Templar, here. There was almost never any worry about a 'Nakki war, and the few times I ever heard of 'Nakkis coming up to scout', it never ended up as more than like 2 PCs that came to the span and left. Not that anything would've happened anyway.

I've seen HRPTs where people get fastracked apps just to be able to join the conflict. People being unskilled wasn't the problem, it was people feeling that the skills were needed to accomplish things (because there's an air that no staff is going to help out some 2day warrior, you haven't been around to devote my time into. An air, by the way, perpetuated because I've watched staff tell someone "no" because they weren't around long enough to put their time into)

Honestly, there just need to be more ACHIEVABLE objectives. THAT ONE MUD WE DON'T TALK ABOUT had siege roads you could build, and were a thing. Putting down 40 blocks of stone, after emoting digging in an area for three RL weeks gets "Nah but how about a sponsored role?"

[WalkAmong]

I would love to see a Tuluki occupation of the South.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Alternatively, let's look inward. Civil war. Mounting tensions between some of the red/black robes has a schism forming between them. Each house gets assigned a side (because the senior house member have decided whom to follow) and suddenly we wouldn't need some big baddie or any more coding than a single animation and a few rumors.

This would be an amazing result of any house of cards that does get built where there can be massive shifts in house structure. What if Oash and a handful of others were ousted and fortified up the vineyards as a result, suddenly they are another option for nongemmed and a threat to be reckoned with. I digress.

All of that said, I agree with the above. HRPTs are a drag compared to smaller festering RPT projects for the most part, primarily because smaller ones are relatable to the common PC. Like the comet. My PC is unlikely to go comet hunting, but if a bunch of kryl are pouring out of the sewers someone's gotta stop them. A PC is more likely to toss their hat into that ring.

[Dar]

I dont think anyone who spent their time indying around a ranger has any ground to stand on, while complaining that there was not enough war related plots during the Nak/Tuluki war.

Like three Legionnaires, including a Sergeant that almost joined the Ivory guard, and a Jihaen Templar, here. There was almost never any worry about a 'Nakki war, and the few times I ever heard of 'Nakkis coming up to scout', it never ended up as more than like 2 PCs that came to the span and left. Not that anything would've happened anyway.

I've seen HRPTs where people get fastracked apps just to be able to join the conflict. People being unskilled wasn't the problem, it was people feeling that the skills were needed to accomplish things (because there's an air that no staff is going to help out some 2day warrior, you haven't been around to devote my time into. An air, by the way, perpetuated because I've watched staff tell someone "no" because they weren't around long enough to put their time into)

Honestly, there just need to be more ACHIEVABLE objectives. THAT ONE MUD WE DON'T TALK ABOUT had siege roads you could build, and were a thing. Putting down 40 blocks of stone, after emoting digging in an area for three RL weeks gets "Nah but how about a sponsored role?"

What is the mud that we dont talk about? I find the whole post unclear. Am I missing the point? sorry.

Unless the point was that staff is unwilling to invest major staff backing for people that can die within a rl week. That 'does' tend to slow down gameplay. But ... is that really so unexpected? That's like saying Byn is bad for the game, because it forbids people from leaving the city for the first game year.

[a french mans shirt]

I would love to see a Tuluki occupation of the South.

I think the reasons Allanak invades Tuluk instead of Tuluk invades Allanak are the resources and the people.

Allanak is in the middle of a desert, while Tuluk is next to the forest and the ground is relatively more viable for growing stuff.

Allanak has a bunch of witches. Allanak has the rinth.

Tuluk has no pesky witches to fight back or burden society with.

At least, that's what I've been led to believe.