New Blood

[Mook]

Nothing to see here.

[creeper386]

Considering the North sucks. I think not.

Considering the fact that I think most people coming to Arm for the harsh desert landscape would be turned off by the north, I'd say no.

Considering Allanak is still better, I still say no.

Also, there is more support in Allanak for newer players. Maybe less players but alot more support.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Considering the North sucks. I think not.

Agreed. And what's worse is how you Northern barbarians keep pushing it on us like crack. Don't you know that a gathering of twinks and n00bs in Tuluk is the first sign of the Zalanthan apocolypse?

What's the second sign? You guessed it; AC making a Kadian merchant character. (Hint: Think hand-crafted baobab dildos and ginka-flavored lube, and you'll get the picture).

Also, there is more support in Allanak for newer players. Maybe less players but alot more support.

All jokes aside, this would have to be the real reason. First of all, the core of the T'zai Byn is there, which is the unofficial newbie training school (although I understand there is some desire for it to not be so anymore, on both an IC and OOC level). More than that, however, would be the obvious titling of rooms. 'The Main Bazaar', 'Commoner's Way', 'Warrior's Way', and 'Tradesman Street' all give a newbie a fairly good idea of where they are, and what's going on around them. Just my opinion.

[EvilRoeSlade]

There is also another clan set up to aid newbies seperate from the Byn and unavailable in Allanak.

I'd say more, but in matters such as these I prefer to let my signature to speak for me.

[Armaddict]

Bah!  Tuluk isn't for new armers!  It's for new northerners!

"-REAL- armaddicts choose 'nak!"

[Delirium]

You know, I'm getting kind of tired of this Tuluk-bashing. (Yeah, yeah, but if I don't say it, who will?)

First of all, it's a new area in the game, relatively speaking, and thus it is understandably going through growing pains. I like the direction that it is taking and think that after a while, people will begin to see that it is not bunny-hugging paradise and begin to roleplay accordingly.

Templars are still deadly, they're just more efficient about it than the blood-flinging, brutal infidels in the south that oppress people to make up for their own personal shortcomings and dare to call themselves... er, well. *cough* But you know what I'm getting at.

Nobles and Templars already know they're better than those commoners, so they don't need to be bowed and scraped to, to prove it. The people are tools. Some are more useful than others. They shouldn't be wasted unless they are causing problems that are best resolved by making them disappear. That is a different attitude than the basic southern "kill'em all and let Tek sort'em out" method, yes, but it isn't necessarily a 'softer' attitude.

The area is not lush by a long shot,  though it is less of a complete wasteland than the south is. It's got plenty of dangers, it just hasn't been totally raped of its sustenance. People complain that there are too many deadly NPCs, but then turn around and complain that the northern hunting grounds are too 'soft'. (Which eh, they're not, it's very easy to die.) Make up your minds!

Yes, there are areas, RP-wise and code-wise, where it could probably use improvement to make it more 'Armageddon flavored', but it is still a developing area. Be patient. I have recently seen a drastic improvement in the way people act and react, and hopefully Tuluk will eventually turn into what it was meant to be.

If you want brutal, senseless violence and oppressive harshness, go to Allanak.
If you want efficient deadliness and lots of behind-the-scenes political action, go to Tuluk.

Yeah, it IS different from Allanak. What's your point? The reason for making a second city shouldn't be to make it a clone of the first. Different cultures and styles allow for varied play.

And no, I don't hate Allanak. I enjoy playing there, but I also enjoy playing in Tuluk.

And uh.. now, back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Edited to add: Just because politics are behind the scenes doesn't mean that everyone should have to be nice to each other. Far from it. But I would expect to see a lot more barbed words, more insinuated meanings, more subtle competitions to see who can insult the other in the most artistic fashion, a lot more silent glaring and whispering behind people's backs.

In contrast to, say, jumping up and starting a bar brawl, or bawling in 'Storm-speak about what a gith and their mamma did and how they're going to be cut open from chin to crotch if they don't back off.

[Rindan]

That is an easy to argument to nullify Delirium.  I retort everything you said with these two simple and true facts.  The North sucks.  The South rules.  I fail to see the confusion.

As to the idea of changing the documentation, as much as I would like to see Tuluk turned into a nice sandy waste courteously of his Holiness, The One True God King, The Great Dragon Who Saved Us All, The Mighty And High Protector Of The Known World, it might not hurt to change it.  I would not suggest changing it to point people just to the North.  Allanak rules and should not be abandoned because everyone likes hugs and snuggles.  However, it might not be a bad idea to suggest that either Tuluk or Allanak make acceptable starting positions.  Both can support a new player easily.  Allanak is still a good place to start.  It just so happens that the care bears in Tuluk also can love and nurture a newbie with warm and gentle loving hands, regardless of his race, into a happy and adorable member of society who can receive hugs and sweet kisses at a moments notice.  Both places make find starting points in my opinion.

I hope I don't need to point out that most of the above was humor.

[Delirium]

And here I was hoping to have a creative debate with the great Rindan, drawing upon all of my resources in a futile attempt to combat his worldly knowledge.

Damn, that just sucked. C'mon old boy, you can do better than that.

Meh, to get back on topic: you southern bastards can keep your newbies. To be honest, while Tuluk might be "easier to survive in", Allanak does have more support for newer players. It has organizations that help a new player to learn the ropes, and opportunities for survival that don't necessarily require a certain guild or particular skill.

[Marauder Moe]

I think (hope) most of the Tuluk vs. Allanak comments are IC feelings turned OOC humor.  The Imms haven't given us an active war recently so we have to vent IC frustrations in other ways.  :wink:

[Warlord]

"Bah! Ya whinin' 'Nakki fecks, got yer panties in a feckin' twist 'cause ya lost the war! Too busy feckin' yer kanks ya were, no brains behind yer fight...just jumped in swingin' like a drunken sot!" says the one-eyed, grizzled veteran as he urinates upon the head of a human soldier of Tektolnes.
"Maybe we'll just head down and clean the place up fer ya kank-feckers, the Sun King willing." he mutters quietly with a look to the sky as he relieves himself.

[Angela Christine]

Meh, to get back on topic: you southern bastards can keep your newbies.

Oh no you don't.  This is like that "duck season, rabbit season" bit in the loony toons cartoons, isn't it?  Well it isn't going to work, YOU take the krath-damned newbies!  Wait . . . that isn't right.  Err.

Anyway, I think it could be changed to recomend either large city.  The north is a little easier on people who want to learn on thier own and run out the gates to start killing vestrics on day one, while the south is slightly easier on people who want to join a newbie-friendly organization right away so they have IC help from day one.  The north is a little easier on newbie outdoorsmen, while the south is a little easier on newbie city dwellers.  Have you ever tried to map Tuluk?  Tek's Tits that is difficult!  It doesn't fit on one sheet of graph paper, it doesn't even fit on two sheets of graph paper.  I haven't actually tried to combine my "neighbourhood" maps, but I suspect I would need to tape together at least 4 sheets!  How am I supposed to fit that bad boy in a binder?

AC

[CindyLou]

I have it on one page, AC. Except for the insides of places, and one certain area that I have on its own separate page, and isn't fleshed out because I haven't been through the whole thing yet. And I ain't sharin. Nya.

But it -can- be done, so don't give up hope!

As for the topic at hand, a message to Newbies:

Please try to understand that a lot of the diatribe here is made in jest. People who love playing the south get a kick out of poking fun of the north, and vice versa. It's just an ongoing thing, and shouldn't be taken too seriously.

I've played both north and south. Love them both, for different reasons. At the present time, it -seems- as though the north has more player characters. It could just be that they hang out together more though.

I'm still fairly new to the game - just over a year, with only half a dozen characters so far. The Byn is an excellent way to get started with a combat-oriented character, and at the moment they're only available in the south. The Atrium, from what I understand, is also an excellent way to get started with a non-combat-oriented character, and they are also only available in the south.

On the other hand, the north has the Sun Legion, which has its training for combat-oriented characters, and a special school (I don't know if it has an official name) that you can seek out IC, for people who don't want to join the Sun Legion.

It also has very active nobles and templars, if you want to get into group participation without being a mercenary right away.

Luir's is also another possible starting point for newbies, because the Kurac clan is extremely active and present there. Kurac allows you to learn a myriad of things, from their military operations to their merchant operations, yet lacks the "fear me or die" aspect of the southern templarate, or the "they're all out to get me" paranoia of the more subtle north.

So honestly, pick whichever you like, and base it on how exactly you'd like to approach the game with your style of RP.

[Malifaxis]

Luir's is also another possible starting point for newbies, because the Kurac clan is extremely active and present there. Kurac allows you to learn a myriad of things, from their military operations to their merchant operations, yet lacks the "fear me or die" aspect of the southern templarate, or the "they're all out to get me" paranoia of the more subtle north.

Yes, the Outpost definitely has a different attitude.  A "lets get all baked and drunk and laugh at the idiots to either side of us because they think they're tough and we're fucking unstoppable" kind of attitude.

[witchman]

Is it just me or would anyone else also like to see the North disolve back into a collection of barbarian strong holds with no real civilization?  Add a sprinkling of one or two villages and boom there you have it.

[Anonymous]

Is it just me or would anyone else also like to see the North disolve back into a collection of barbarian strong holds with no real civilization?  Add a sprinkling of one or two villages and boom there you have it.

Sorta.

I'd really like to see northern nobility be closed down.  They seem redundant to the nobility in the south but without the recent history.

[crymerci]

I would actually go the other direction and say I'd like to see more Northern nobility.  Just the two houses is fine, but more nobles per house.  As it stands, a northern noble with only one counterpart pretty much has to either get along with them or have no one to interact with on an equal basis. More nobles will allow for more complex and varied webs of alliances within the houses and between them. I.e. say you're playing a Tenneshi noble, and you have a firm friendship and alliance with one of the Winrothols, but you want to have another one of the Winrothols killed.  Makes for interesting tea parties.

I guess that's fairly off-topic, sorry.

[Anonymous]

I would actually go the other direction and say I'd like to see more Northern nobility.  Just the two houses is fine, but more nobles per house.  As it stands, a northern noble with only one counterpart pretty much has to either get along with them or have no one to interact with on an equal basis. More nobles will allow for more complex and varied webs of alliances within the houses and between them. I.e. say you're playing a Tenneshi noble, and you have a firm friendship and alliance with one of the Winrothols, but you want to have another one of the Winrothols killed.  Makes for interesting tea parties.

I guess that's fairly off-topic, sorry.

And its what already exists in Allanak but with 3 noble houses and a senate.  I'd be a little bummed to see it, but if nobility in Tuluk is to remain a playable option, then maybe the Allanak nobility should be closed.

Try starting up a human PC and NOT getting a job in either city.  Its too easy and sets the wrong precendent for new players who might not have any idea just how hard it is to get 300 sid a month.

My first human PC was begging for jobs in Allanak left and right and Kadius, Salarr, Borsail and Oash all turned him away because they had plenty of PCs.

[Cuusardo]

Flame much?

Some people prefer the Northlands, and others prefer the Southlands.  Opinions are like assholes, people.  Everyone's got one and they all stink.  

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

My first human PC was begging for jobs in Allanak left and right and Kadius, Salarr, Borsail and Oash all turned him away because they had plenty of PCs.

But I thought that there were no players down south anymore. Isn't that what you folks keep saying, you stupid slaves to Tek down there? I must be missing something, but if the Houses have enough PCs not to hire anyone, then I am going to go on and assume that there are plenty of players on this mud, and that you just don't think so because they are not sitting at the bar in the Gaj with you.

It would not hurt to see more, of course, but still...

[Anonymous]

My first human PC was begging for jobs in Allanak left and right and Kadius, Salarr, Borsail and Oash all turned him away because they had plenty of PCs.

But I thought that there were no players down south anymore. Isn't that what you folks keep saying, you stupid slaves to Tek down there? I must be missing something, but if the Houses have enough PCs not to hire anyone, then I am going to go on and assume that there are plenty of players on this mud, and that you just don't think so because they are not sitting at the bar in the Gaj with you.

It would not hurt to see more, of course, but still...

Please argue that point with someone who is trying to make it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

That wasn't directed at you. It was directed at whomever said that there were no PC's in 'Nak. I should have been clearer.

[Anonymous]

That wasn't directed at you. It was directed at whomever said that there were no PC's in 'Nak. I should have been clearer.

I can see that now.  The way you kept on saying 'you' and quoted me had me confuzzled.  Thanks.

[naatok]

Anyone who honestly believes the northlands to be 'fluffy bunny land' is somehow missing the entire point.

The point is that compared to Allanaki culture, Tuluki culture is refined.

If Allanak is the New York of Zalanthas (meaning the economic giant), Tuluk is the Paris (center of artistry).

It irks me that people honestly believe Tuluk isn't a harsh place to be.
I mean, c'mon, people...scratch just a wee bit below the surface before you flame the northlands, will ya?

Tulukis prefer finesse over success.  To give a for instance, a Templar of Tuluk has just as much political authority to walk into a tavern and have half-wit guards grab a hapless fool and drag 'im off to the arena, or the Templar's district for 'questioning' as any 'naki Templar.  In Tuluk, such a bald display of brute force is acceptable only in the most extreme cases of criminal activity.  Even then, it would probably be frowned upon as 'unrefined'.

There are other ways to deal with miscreants.  Quiet ways.  Unseen ways.
That's the Tuluki spirit.  No reason to spoil the facade that Tuluk is a nice happy place.  It ISN'T, but why be brutishly obvious about it like the blood-thirsty vermin under the bootheel of the Jade Cross?  Oh, it just isn't -done- that way here.  Life imitates art in Tuluki society.  If you don't see the undercurrents of terror in the machinations of the nobility and the templarate of the northlands, then chances are good it is because the players of those pcs are playing EXTREMELY well.  If you don't think that bad things happen to good people in Tuluk, then you're either extremely fortunate or extremely blind to the less than obvious.

Just because you don't see bodies in the streets and don't feel the backhand of Tuluki justice, doesn't mean that people aren't getting dead...or worse there on a regular basis.  After all, body dumping, like any other activity, is an art form in Tuluk.

Authorities in Allanak make huge scenes when they deal with problems.  In Tuluk if no one sees a problem, it doesn't exist and the more quietly you eliminate problems, the less likely it is for someone to 'see' the problem before it is gone.

There are many totalitarian states throughout terrestrial history that have built the success and happiness of the empire on just such ways and means.

Most people would be happily unaware of the jack-boot hanging over their heads.  Well and good.  Out of sight is out of mind for most.  
Most people don't cause problems.  It is that element of society that has the audacity to 'think for themselves' that upsets a tyrant's rule.  Those people are well aware that there is an unseen current of maintaining order in Tuluk, and most of them are scared shitless, just waiting for that inevitable day when they, or someone they know, disappears without a word or trace.

Enough of the political differences...

So there's a forest and game and food aplenty in the northlands.  Uh...not.
Having played a few pcs in each area of Zalanthas, the average person of Allanak has a much better chance at a long life than the average person in Tuluk.  Most of this is based upon assumption of danger.  People assume life in Allanak is more dangerous and thus they plan better in an attempt to avoid the dirt nap.
I've seen people in Tuluk, drunk with the initial success of acquiring and selling good amounts of supplies, wind up as rotting carcasses in the wilds because they assumed Tuluk was a nice place to live.

Sorry folks.  Tuluk is a nice place to VISIT, but you sure as hell won't live there for long if you think it's just a Nice Place.

[Rindan]

Staying unemployed is a challenge in Allanak.  You have to go out of your way and try to keep from being gobbled up by a noble or merchant house.  You just walk down the street, a noble realizes you are a PC, and before you can move they have throw a pile of silk at you and have two body guards trying to stuff you into it.  The problem with Allanak is not that it lacks players.  The player base is actually fairly solid.  My complaint is the type of characters.  Everyone and their gortok is dressed up in noble house colors.  It is like a continual tea party.  There is just not enough scum these days.  Elves are rare, seedy gemmed are rarer, and the gritty dishonest folk of Allanak really are just in poor supply.  The poor militia must piss themselves when they hear of a pick pocket in a ravenous attempt to find the guy just for something to do.

The magik of Allank is its seedy underside if you ask me.  Silks are fine as they make wonderful victims / shady employers and reinforce the divide between the two societies, but it is just depressing when silks are all there is.  I am not saying that the seedy element is not in existence, just that it is depressingly small these days.  The thing that always draws me to Allanak is its dark underside, not the fluffy nobles, advisors, and servants talking about who slept with who or what Templar so-and-so is doing.  Allanak's dark underbelly can never be too big if you ask me.  

All you people playing your damned desert elves need to go jump in front of a rampaging mek and get a real elf in good old Allanak.  The hidden mages need to stop wussing out and avoiding the scorn they deserve and make gemmed.  Finally, we need northerners to get their fluffy, snuggles loving, elf hugging, peacenik asses to Allanak and play proper victims.

[Anonymous]

GO Naatok!
I think those that think the north is bunny-hugging fluffy shit, haven't actually delved into it, expect all dangers to be seen and out in the open,(like 'nak) and get up there going...what's going on where's the conflict?where the danger?
Living in the wilds in the north is a bit easier than in the south, not easy, but easier than in the south. Almost impossible down south.
I don't know how many southerners have gone into the wilds up north and got themselves killed being foolish because they think they know what the north is.
Crap, lately I think more southerners have been dying up north than northerners.
I know of an entire clan killed off by others up there and most people, other than those involved don't know what ever happened to them all.

Just because you don't see or hear about it, doesn't mean it isn't there.