Locked Apartments

[nauta]

So, I had this thought:

You can leave a locked apartment (without a key), but you can't enter a locked apartment (without a key).

This would dramatically affect a very classic murder strategy -- but I've always found that murder strategy to be borderline meta, and certainly lame.  (It's been a couple years since I was apartment murdered, and ever since then I cringe when I read the word '*click*'.)

[Armaddict]

I don't think the timeless strategy of 'Trap them in a meeting place' is exactly meta, or something that needs to be removed from the game.

[Riev]

I still say, stop blocking people from entering apartment buildings just because they don't rent there. Let people use "knock door" more... anyone thats gonna break in isn't scared of your guards anyway.

So far as the locked room.... in the MODERN world? This makes sense. You lock with a key on one side, but the other you can just twist. I'm alright with Zalanthan locks requiring the use of a key on either side.

[WanderingOoze]

I still say, stop blocking people from entering apartment buildings just because they don't rent there. Let people use "knock door" more... anyone thats gonna break in isn't scared of your guards anyway.

Yeah this. Anyone going to burglarize/assasinate generally has the sneakyness to get past the guards anyway. What if Amos just wants to drop by, for
non murdery purposes to check if someone 's home. Oh and this severly limits any door-to-door salesman concepts!

[Lizzie]

I recall awhile back, there were parties and card games over the Gaj. Someone always had to come downstairs to let the guests upstairs from the bar. In the real world there'd be a buzzer, or at the very least, a concierge or red-hat to let the list of approved guests up.  Can't do that with Armageddon, but the next-best thing (and much more in keeping with the murder/betrayal conspiracy harshness them) would be to not have doormen at all.

Once upon a time, there were individual apartments and houses, that had no guards, and no NPC to hand you your key. You either had your key, or you had a lockpick, or you didn't get in, period. If you were the tenant and lost your key, you were SOL til you could find the PC agent to get you a new one.

I kinda miss those days. It made burglars scarier. Now, they just seem like a "I'll make money by picking every door in this building, now that I'm past the guard" kind of thing. One-shot wonders. Used to be scary because breaking in meant yhou might be seen by the soldier walking up the road. And you ran that risk for most of your attempts.

[Pale Horse]

I both like and do not like this idea.

I like the aspect of having someone outside of the apartment complex being able to walk in and knock.  Having friends over and all that, as brought up.

I don't like the idea because, like many, I've had some "bad" experiences with burglars in the past.  Being burgled can lead to some great RP and character development, but when you find out they stole everything ludicrously heavy to carry or sneak out..then I start just rolling my eyes.

Maybe this has been fixed and I am just not aware.  Can anyone tell me if dragging something behind you or carrying a bed, a keg and three chests prevents you from sneaking/hiding?

[Reiloth]

My biggest gripe with apartment slayings is my PCs would be caught dead saying "errr, an apartment? I don't go to apartments. Those are scary death traps!" So ooc, I might know what's coming. But IC, it's a sticky wicket. Then you are "that guy" and the meta tables suddenly flip.

I mean one exit places are suspicious, granted. But you usually don't assume the #2 reason to rent an apartment meant is to murder people, IC.

I mean maybe apartments have a different purpose in Zalanthas haha.

"Not a Rinthi, but looking to store your stuff, bone people, and kill your enemies where soldiers won't notice? Look no further than Nenyuks Gaj Estate Apartments! Cheap affordable housing and non-stain performance flooring. Maximum occupancy, inquire with Landlord. His name is Googamooga. The great. "

I don't think apartments need to change much. Really this is just a subset of our binary crime code. Pick, sneak/hide, burglery all don't set off crime code meters, because the reaction of the law is worse than Rodney King in 91. You will literally be murdered in the street for resisting arrest over stealing a fruit. By like 8 half Giants. Without more nuance to crime code, putting more grey area crime within its grasp would further stifle crime activity to the point of non existence.

To get down to basics, the reason people murder in apartments is it guarantees secrecy, and adds immensely to the attackers chance of success. Murderimg someone in a lawful area is definitely possible, but requires greater skill, planning, and a greater risk.

I'd personally like to see murder and corpses out in the streets, rather than locked up in an apartment. It always felt cheap because there's no way out. But then again, Zalanthas is a brutal place.

In essence I think more attention in a broad stroke could be focused on crime code rather than apartments specifically. I don't think locked apartments are bad, but I do like that new apartments for the most part have two entrances.

I would rather have crime code operate as it does at night 24/7, and rely on brain patrolled NPC human soldiers to spot crime and attempt to arrest someone. Remove stationary soldiers except those guarding entrances. Have overlap, delays, open spots. Give soldiers billy clubs and subdue priority, with mercy on and attempts to knock out rather than murder. Grade up if the crime is past petty.

It all sounds simple but obviously it isn't. Coding a realistic yet pragmatic crime code sounds like a fun nightmare.

[Doublepalli]

My biggest gripe with apartment slayings is my PCs would be caught dead saying "errr, an apartment? I don't go to apartments. Those are scary death traps!" So ooc, I might know what's coming. But IC, it's a sticky wicket. Then you are "that guy" and the meta tables suddenly flip.

I mean one exit places are suspicious, granted. But you usually don't assume the #2 reason to rent an apartment meant is to murder people, IC.

I mean maybe apartments have a different purpose in Zalanthas haha.

"Not a Rinthi, but looking to store your stuff, bone people, and kill your enemies where soldiers won't notice? Look no further than Nenyuks Gaj Estate Apartments! Cheap affordable housing and non-stain performance flooring. Maximum occupancy, inquire with Landlord. His name is Googamooga. The great. "

I don't think apartments need to change much. Really this is just a subset of our binary crime code. Pick, sneak/hide, burglery all don't set off crime code meters, because the reaction of the law is worse than Rodney King in 91. You will literally be murdered in the street for resisting arrest over stealing a fruit. By like 8 half Giants. Without more nuance to crime code, putting more grey area crime within its grasp would further stifle crime activity to the point of non existence.

To get down to basics, the reason people murder in apartments is it guarantees secrecy, and adds immensely to the attackers chance of success. Murderimg someone in a lawful area is definitely possible, but requires greater skill, planning, and a greater risk.

I'd personally like to see murder and corpses out in the streets, rather than locked up in an apartment. It always felt cheap because there's no way out. But then again, Zalanthas is a brutal place.

In essence I think more attention in a broad stroke could be focused on crime code rather than apartments specifically. I don't think locked apartments are bad, but I do like that new apartments for the most part have two entrances.

I would rather have crime code operate as it does at night 24/7, and rely on brain patrolled NPC human soldiers to spot crime and attempt to arrest someone. Remove stationary soldiers except those guarding entrances. Have overlap, delays, open spots. Give soldiers billy clubs and subdue priority, with mercy on and attempts to knock out rather than murder. Grade up if the crime is past petty.

It all sounds simple but obviously it isn't. Coding a realistic yet pragmatic crime code sounds like a fun nightmare.

This right here. And - put a soldier in every apartment complex patrolling. It's a well-known fact now in-game that murders happen in apartment buildings yet - no one asks questions when only one person leaves the apartment...ever. Then, shocker, a dead body. I can't tell you how many times IG people have refused to step into apartments - because they are notorious for being death traps. And the utter obliviousness of the people handing out the keys/doorman. Sure , those two people entered, sure, only one left with a barrel of cleaning fluid....but that other guy or gal never left. /ever/.

[Dunetrade55]

I've only been apartment killed once, and I always follow strangers with candy.

[Majikal]

I don't think the timeless strategy of 'Trap them in a meeting place' is exactly meta, or something that needs to be removed from the game.

I agree with this.

Do I do it? No. I prefer to find more entertaining ways to murder mundanely, and plus.. who wants to clean up the body in your own crib? Go to their crib and you don't have to get out the bloodstains. Bonus points if you kill someone in the middle of the street, a feat I've pulled off only twice since the crim code changes way back when.

I did once slay someone in the Sun King's Sanctuary once which is probably still my favorite kill to this day.

I also killed two pc's once who attacked me while I had internet trouble and was afk.. that's a close second.  

[path]

That *click*

I don't mind the meta aspect. The game has gaps that lack realism, and we can chose to approach that as a gamer and give our characters supportive reasoning, or primarily as characters and try to keep our ooc knowledge out of the picture. They're both completely valid and good. I have no problem with the players who understand the code and correct their play to allow for a longer lived role or to get the upper hand.

A crim code revamp is a good idea. Reiloth, you make some nice jabs at a few of the major problems. There's no scale for crime severity. Running is death. There are, can we fix this first, so many half giant guards. If we're going to leave them, let's amend the docs to account for the Allanaki half giant army.

I'm not sure how I feel about nauta's suggested change. Maybe it could be given a trial run on one of the commoner apartment buildings and we could see how it plays out for a bit.

Play testing is good and fun.

[Jingo]

Apartment killings are lame and meta as fuck. They rely on the ooc assumptions that the vnpc's next door won't report any suspicious goings on in the next hobble. Or that the apartment clerk won't notice someone not returning from said apartment.

But generally you don't have to worry about vnpc's. Their family isn't going to come by and ask any questions. The servants won't notice when you dismember a body in your office.

No need to give any fucks about the virtual world.

[Inks]

Other people's apartments not meta.

But yeah. Take the vnpc population into account. At least wish up.

[Synthesis]

I don't think being killed over resisting arrest is really a bad thing, when you have the easily available option of turning on nosave arrest.  This is Allanak.  You have no civil rights.

Otherwise, being crim-flagged is just a roll of the dice to see whether you can pass your flee and hide checks.  Without the possibility of death, there's no down-side to resisting:  if you pass, you get away...if you fail, the end result is exactly the same as if you hadn't resisted at all...so there is no incentive -not- to resist.

Especially when subdue is really janky (only 1 person can subdue you at a time) and there are no handcuffs or shackles.

[Jingo]

Other people's apartments not meta.

But yeah. Take the vnpc population into account. At least wish up.

That's just yer old timey assassination. Good clean fun.

[Reiloth]

I don't think being killed over resisting arrest is really a bad thing, when you have the easily available option of turning on nosave arrest.  This is Allanak.  You have no civil rights.

Otherwise, being crim-flagged is just a roll of the dice to see whether you can pass your flee and hide checks.  Without the possibility of death, there's no down-side to resisting:  if you pass, you get away...if you fail, the end result is exactly the same as if you hadn't resisted at all...so there is no incentive -not- to resist.

Especially when subdue is really janky (only 1 person can subdue you at a time) and there are no handcuffs or shackles.

The only standing issue with nosave arrest is if you are currently in combat, you can't be subdued. So soldiers will just gank you instead.

[Armaddict]

No need to give any fucks about the virtual world.

I think you need to remember that the virtual world fears templars.  You make it sound like everyone is very dutiful and eager to go pointing fingers at people who just killed someone to a templar who might kill them for wasting their time with the report of it.  The whole 'fear of the upper class' isn't situational for most of the virtual world, it's omnipresent.

That isn't to say that you -should- ignore the virtual world, but before you go off on a little tangent like that, you should at least remember the qualities of the virtual world that you are, once again, seeming to transpose next to what the virtual world of real life would be (I will emphasize 'seeming', because that is how it seems to me).  Life is cheap on zalanthas, and not everyone is eager to get tangled up in plots that just got someone else killed, and the thing about that virtual world is that they do virtual things.  The 'neighbors' aren't virtual.  They're real.  The apartments are coded in for PC's, and they aren't home; if they notice something, they will be around.

It is not metagaming.  Once again, I think you're just averse to anything that results in character death.  Meanwhile, we have an entire other thread about a powerful skill being useless because people can run away from it too easily.  Then one of the most common 'plotting' events in literature and history (trapping someone in closed room or place where they can be stuck), and 'simplest' way to plan for escape, is attacked as metagaming.

If you're unwilling to go into an apartment with someone, that's probably a sure sign that you don't trust them yet, and that's not some terrible crime against the purpose of apartments, nor is it a wonky side effect of game code.

[Refugee]

I've been trying to figure out how to put my difficulty with this suggestion into words that would make sense to someone.  It's true that it's a little gamey that you can kill people in apartments and get away with it, but it's also gamey how ridiculously difficult it is to do it otherwise and get away with it.  There is so much codedly on the side of the victim in this game, some of which don't make a lot of sense either.

There's a considerable amount of RP involved in earning trust and luring a victim someplace you can lock them in, too.  I've worked for IG years on people at times.

So I think it's ok the way it is.

[manipura]

There's a considerable amount of RP involved in earning trust and luring a victim someplace you can lock them in, too.  I've worked for IG years on people at times.

So I think it's ok the way it is.

I often have my characters show their level of trust, and judge someone else's level of trust, through the whole locked apartment scenario.
Like Refugee said, there can be a considerable amount of RP involved and a lot of opportunities for character development.
I like it the way it is. 

[Armaddict]

As a note, it's not that I think everything is perfect as is.  But there are other changes to be made to apartments that would make this scenario very different and make burglary better.  (I proposed an idea awhile back for the simple 'sliding bolt' lock to be in place, to promote people actually sleeping in their apartments/being in their apartments).

But in the context of this idea, and the current framework of code, I think this is kind of a one-sided proposal that doesn't really fix anything in the game.

If anything, making it harder to shadow into apartments would be a good thing that might alleviate some of the more 'gamey' versions of this, while leaving the more sensical versions (deceiving someone into trusting you behind a locked door) of it intact.  Promote breaking in after they're already in, rather than following them in.  Something of that nature, for the quick fix to this (and honestly, this step might have already been done; it's been proposed a bunch of times).

[Jingo]

I think you need to remember that the virtual world fears templars.  You make it sound like everyone is very dutiful and eager to go pointing fingers at people who just killed someone to a templar who might kill them for wasting their time with the report of it.  The whole 'fear of the upper class' isn't situational for most of the virtual world, it's omnipresent.

That isn't to say that you -should- ignore the virtual world, but before you go off on a little tangent like that, you should at least remember the qualities of the virtual world that you are, once again, seeming to transpose next to what the virtual world of real life would be (I will emphasize 'seeming', because that is how it seems to me).  Life is cheap on zalanthas, and not everyone is eager to get tangled up in plots that just got someone else killed, and the thing about that virtual world is that they do virtual things.  The 'neighbors' aren't virtual.  They're real.  The apartments are coded in for PC's, and they aren't home; if they notice something, they will be around.

I guess npc's shouldn't report my pickpocket because they fear the templarate as well. Maybe they shouldn't report to the templarate if I try to kill them directly. By all means they seem to have the agency of your average sheep. I bet it's just a coincidence that it's a good justification for getting away with  questionable player killing.

The rest of your post isn't worth a response.

[Dunetrade55]

I agree, the shadowing into apartments thing is kind of questionable. Is it possible? Yes, I imagine it is, but it should be very difficult. Making it so just anyone could walk by the desk, but making it harder to stay hidden in the hallways and, particularly the apartments themselves, would change the equation a good bit, in a way that would improve the game in my opinion. I kind of like the idea of anyone being able to unlock the door from the inside for OOC practicality, as, when I lock the door and a guest is over, and I end up going linkdead or having a RL emergencey, I'd like them to be able to get out... however, my OOC convenience probably shouldn't be the biggest priority when considering changes to the game.

[Armaddict]

In light of Jingo's deep, penetrating gaze, I must change my stance.

This idea cannot be implemented because it will prevent me from being a homicidal maniac, you guys are purposely trying to remove every code advantage I have.  My only purpose here is to troll your game, and that's all that I've done for my entire tenure here. How dare you make this a game for carebears.  The only reason I stuck with this game so long was to acquire more knowledge than you and turn it on you, and you're ruining it.

[Jingo]

lol cry me a river

[BrokenRomance]

I think it'd be nice if the front door maybe let you out of it, but there was another door inside. The old 'Please, step into my office.' trick. It'd make parties easier to get to, and murder still easy to commit!

I've never had an apartment so far. One day, I hope to have these problems.