Yet Another Climbing Idea

[nauta]

So, here's the idea (maybe it's been had before):

The better you are, the softer you fall.  Your skill in 'climb' reduces the damage you take when you fall.

Motivation:

o I once had a desert elf with master climb, and I would climb everywhere, but there was still this feeling: one in a hundred chance and I'm dead.  I'd rather the feeling be: one in a hundred chance and I'm fucked (but not dead).

o Falling sucks -- you could find a monster or pass out.  But dying sucks worse.

o Conceivably, master climbers could then do the whole 'up up up' thing to stop their fall without worry of that being so damage inducing.

I don't know, other motivations too -- I just find it very binary to the point where even master climbers are playing roulette climbing certain rooms.

[Majikal]

The better you are, the softer you fall.  Your skill in 'climb' reduces the damage you take when you fall.

Other than giving a weird bonus to climbers, being a good climber doesn't necessarily make falling off a cliff suck less.

I don't know, other motivations too -- I just find it very binary to the point where even master climbers are playing roulette climbing certain rooms.

Mountain-climbing with primitive tools should be like playing roulette with death. I think most characters would acknowledge that they are in fact doing something dangerous and deadly.

[Armaddict]

Mountain-climbing with primitive tools should be like playing roulette with death. I think most characters would acknowledge that they are in fact doing something dangerous and deadly.

This is kind of my qualm with climbing threads.  I am -not- against changes to climb, because I do find the nature of the skill a little outdated.  But the problem is whenever we discuss it, by and large, people seem to be trying to make it altogether safer to climb, which I don't want.  It needs to keep the above in mind.  For short falls, it's no big deal.  It's some bad shit, but nothing terrible.  Once you start getting to 30 and 40 foot drops and three story buildings, and large cliffs like the shield wall, this becomes an entirely different thing. (edited here because I noticed a stupid typo when I was quoted later)

Changes to critical fail are okay, as long as you make it so that critically failing with a massive drop beneath you is -probably still going to make you come close to dying at the very least-.  A mediocre climber should -never- feel that comfortable with 3 or 4 rooms beneath them.

Make changes.  But don't remove the risk from climbs.

[Dunetrade55]

I've only instantly fallen into NPC death, or staff animated death. I think climb needs a fix.

EDIT: Oh, then there's the death drops. which can be an excessive loss.

[Dunetrade55]

If I had my way, climb would be  thing that always happens, based on skill for delay. As it stands all it is is aw, shucks, plot ruined, or aw sucks, time to burden staff with another PC app.

[Synthesis]

I think, as a matter of game design, the question we should be asking is not "how difficult should it be to climb," or "what should the risk of climbing be?"

The question is:  What is the POINT of having climb rooms in the first place?

I think the primary answer to that, clearly, is:  to make certain locations relatively inaccessible.   If you make climbing less risky, you make the areas more accessible.

At that point, the question becomes:  which areas should be more (or less) accessible, and to whom?

If you want an area to be accessible to anyone with the climb skill, just set the difficulty so that jman climb always passes.

I think...what folks are really crying about...is that they really, really, really -want- to be able to see what's over there, and they want to believe that their character OUGHT to be able to do it, when the staff who coded the climb room probably thought otherwise.

[Desertman]

I want to say that you are describing what is basically a facet of the "Tumble" skill in Dungeons and Dragons 3.5.

When you fall you can make a "Tumble Check" when you hit the ground to take less damage.

Basically, it amounts to someone who is acrobatic enough/skilled enough at "falling" to do this or something similar to this to prevent taking as much damage when they hit the ground, because they know how to hit the ground:



While you can argue, "Well that's a practiced controlled environment and not really like falling on accident in Armageddon.", I will argue....."People throw fireballs and fight house-sized dinosaurs with bone swords.".

Basically, I back the idea in theory because I've already seen it work pretty well in another game rule set.

Better climbers have fallen A LOT early on to become better climbers, it is fair to say they probably learned better how to land as well when they fall.....because they have fallen....many times.

[Armaddict]

That would be a falling skill, I think.

I'd like to know how he got up there.  If it was without assistance.  The majority of people can't confidently look at a sheer wall and think 'I can get up that.'  The majority of people don't look at a massive cliff side and think, 'Yup, I can move laterally along that as far as I want to.'  That is the climb skill.  Not everyone has it.  It's not about taking less damage.  It's about looking at sheer to near-sheer surfaces and being able to have the know-how to plan a route, to know their limits, and to not fall off.

So no.  This is not the tumble skill.  I think Synthesis's assessment is accurate; climb checks portray areas that are accessible, but not to those just moving around.  It's for those who can look at those surfaces and think of them as paths, rather than walls.  That is neither low-risk nor widely accessible.  (Edit here to add:  I am, however, thinking that 'climbing up' should be a lot more viable, with movement side to side and climbing down being far more intimidating).

Your journeyman climber looks at some surfaces and says 'Low risk, I can do it.'  But they shouldn't look at those buildings and think 'Yup, no problem.' because the risk is that if they are wrong, it's going to be a disastrous event.

While the current climb code can definitely use work, amid a myriad of other skills that could use more elaboration and filling in, the risk involved is not something that needs to be or should be removed; It's not about taking longer.  It's not about it being more tiring.  It's about there being situations where if you fuck up, it indeed can fuck you up real bad.

[Desertman]

I'm not talking about climbing.

I'm talking about falling.

I don't think you are disagreeing with me, I'm just making it clear to other readers.....I'm probably actually proposing a hidden "tumble" skill associated with climb instead of a change to climb as we know it.

Thread just made me think.

[manipura]

That would be a falling skill, I think.

I'd like to know how he got up there.

Maybe to get to the top he was wearing some crappy cloth gloves with some shards of bone jammed in that made climbing way easier?
Or maybe he had a non-functional cloth rope that made climbing way easier?
Or maybe a combination of non-functional frayed cloth ropes and bone-shard gloves?
Or maybe the wall you can't see had a ladder?

I'm betting it was a crappy rope on each shoulder and bone-shard gloves though.  

[Armaddict]

Ohh, my bad Dman, I misunderstood.  Thought you were revamping climb into tumble.


Edit: Pffft, that was a passing tangent to demonstrate the difference between climbing and falling.  I'm guessing there was indeed a ladder or assist, but my point stands!

[Majikal]

I want to say that you are describing what is basically a facet of the "Tumble" skill in Dungeons and Dragons 3.5.

When you fall you can make a "Tumble Check" when you hit the ground to take less damage.

Basically, it amounts to someone who is acrobatic enough/skilled enough at "falling" to do this or something similar to this to prevent taking as much damage when they hit the ground, because they know how to hit the ground:



While you can argue, "Well that's a practiced controlled environment and not really like falling on accident in Armageddon.", I will argue....."People throw fireballs and fight house-sized dinosaurs with bone swords.".

Basically, I back the idea in theory because I've already seen it work pretty well in another game rule set.

Better climbers have fallen A LOT early on to become better climbers, it is fair to say they probably learned better how to land as well when they fall.....because they have fallen....many times.

Tumblechecks are pretty sweet, I'm also 99.9% sure the game factors in a tumblecheck of sorts (damage has never been a static number for me). However, your average 'whoops I fell" I zalanthas ammounts to something like:



With the occasional:



You don't really breakfall that.

[Brokkr]

That would be a falling skill, I think.

I'd like to know how he got up there.

Maybe to get to the top he was wearing some crappy cloth gloves with some shards of bone jammed in that made climbing way easier?
Or maybe he had a non-functional cloth rope that made climbing way easier?
Or maybe a combination of non-functional frayed cloth ropes and bone-shard gloves?
Or maybe the wall you can't see had a ladder?

I'm betting it was a crappy rope on each shoulder and bone-shard gloves though.  

-Verified that climbing tools (separate from +climb gear) works, contrary to player belief.

Or maybe he had some sort of climbing tool in his hand, as would make sense?

[Armaddict]

...honestly, it's kind of a moot point.  As was pointed out, I was making it a segue into the difference between climbing and the proposed change to climb, and I don't think it came across the right way.

Nor was it even necessary, because as Dman clarified, he wasn't saying what I interpreted from his post, making the whole reply of mine pointless in the first place.

Mostly, I was just trying to reiterate the same point that I held before:  While I'm more than okay with changing around the climb skill and making adjustments, I'd like for us to keep in mind the dangers of large drops and keep those dangers intact.  I don't want everyone with the climb skill looking at big drops and thinking 'no problem'.  I want them to be scary, but perhaps in a different way than it is now (which is why the brainstorming is occurring). 

I think this idea, in particular, is closer to the mark than I first gave it credit for, because I was thinking in terms of the current function of the climb skill being removed entirely in favor of everyone being able to climb well.  If the climb skill affected climb success and the fall damage, it may indeed fulfill the goals in mind, I think?  If this isn't in there already?

[nauta]

the climb skill <would> affect[ed] climb success and the fall damage...

Yep, that's the proposal.  My thought is that the more skilled you are at climbing, the better you are at (a) not falling as often and (b) catching yourself when you do fall and (c) navigating the fall to avoid damage.  So novice climbers will fall often, without catching themselves, and take a lot of damage.  Master climbers will fall less often, will be better at catching themselves, and take less damage.

Re the giant pit) I'm pretty sure the master climber would not just jump into that hole, but rather slide down the side of it.  If they slip, they would try to find handholds.

There are also climb rooms in the game that fail no matter what level you are.

The proposal isn't about making climb easier, but making it less binary.

[Majikal]

the climb skill <would> affect[ed] climb success and the fall damage...

Yep, that's the proposal.  My thought is that the more skilled you are at climbing, the better you are at (a) not falling as often and (b) catching yourself when you do fall and (c) navigating the fall to avoid damage.  So novice climbers will fall often, without catching themselves, and take a lot of damage.  Master climbers will fall less often, will be better at catching themselves, and take less damage.

Re the giant pit) I'm pretty sure the master climber would not just jump into that hole, but rather slide down the side of it.  If they slip, they would try to find handholds.

There are also climb rooms in the game that fail no matter what level you are.

The proposal isn't about making climb easier, but making it less binary.

But a novice climber who falls does have less of a chance to catch themselves and does take increased damage.

A master climber does fall less often and is better at catching themselves.

[path]

Climbing is just SO MUCH COOLER since the city got those absolutely incredible rooftops. Never before have I so wanted to climb everything as part of my character roleplay. It's impossible for me to fully convey how much adoration I feel for the work that was done there.

[Inks]

Mountain-climbing with primitive tools should be like playing roulette with death. I think most characters would acknowledge that they are in fact doing something dangerous and deadly.

This is kind of my qualm with climbing threads.  I am -not- against changes to climb, because I do find the nature of the skill a little outdated.  But the problem is whenever we discuss it, by and large, people seem to be trying to make it altogether safer to climb, which I don't want.  It needs to keep the above in mind.  For short falls, it's no big deal.  It's some bad shit, but nothing terrible.  Once you start getting to 30 and 40 foot drops and three story buildings, and large cliffs like the shield wall, this becomes an entire thing entirely.

Changes to critical fail are okay, as long as you make it so that critically failing with a massive drop beneath you is -probably still going to make you come close to dying at the very least-.  A mediocre climber should -never- feel that comfortable with 3 or 4 rooms beneath them.

Make changes.  But don't remove the risk from climbs.