Idea: Waiting and RL matchups hindering plots

[Desertman]

I wouldn't even be opposed to it if it were an NPC only Houses had access to within the walls of their own compounds.

That makes perfect sense to me and would only serve to pass on messages IC'ly that people generally use their clan GDB's for anyhow.

If anything it takes it off of the clan GDB's and puts it actually IN THE GAME, which I can't be upset about.

Yeah, I'm for this. Anything that takes something from OOC usefulness, to IC usefulness, and builds RP potential and increases immersion, I'm all for.

Yeah in my opinion the clan boards are being used a bit too much to relay things "easily" that should instead be relayed in the game.

I was in a clan recently and I won't point fingers or name names but I just kept thinking, "Why is this being put in the clan boards as a rumor/passing word instead of this player letting people find this out in the game if they have a reason to know it?".

If nothing else I think staff needs to buckle down on that.

I'm fine with, "Word gets around that something might be happening pretty soon on this day and if you want to know what it is you should show up for details.".

What I'm not fine with is, "Hey, everyone in the clan knows this specific thing about who/what/how/when/why and now your PC knows that even if it's a miniscule minute thing like what objects go in which chest in a room.".

No.

[bardlyone]

And, just allow me to interject here, this is not an issue specific to the current character I have.

Then consider the question a universal "you" not related to your current character. You proposed the issue is these characters don't have money.

So the question still stands.

no. I proposed that was "a reason". not "the reason you can't". fact of the matter is, while some pcs manage to get insanely rich, most of mine never get anywhere near that. be damned if they piss away money on a messenger for anything. I will just literally completely let the matter go unresolved forever if it comes to it. because that sounds like a lot of unnecessary bullshit and work for something that 99% of the time I OOCly don't give enough of a fuck about to care. given the many people who obviously feel differently, and the fact that you seemed to think there was some personal angle which there wasn't, involved in it all, I was trying to speculate from their perspective.

yep, that's me. if you ask me to get in touch with someone and I never do? it's because they weren't around when I was for me to pester. or I forgot. or I didn't care. I'm pretty sure it mattered more to my character than it does to me the player, and probably they would have put more effort into making it happen somewhere but me as a player... nope, sorry. I spent 5 RL days trying to find you. even if I do find you at some point, it's clearly going to be like talking into a black hole of forever wait times or hoping that people who are going to paraphrase what I said into something hopelessly and pointlessly different deliver an amount of specifics that I would not and could not reasonably expect them to. so I just don't bother with it.

sorry if you put me in that position or are on the other end. I'm a flake like that. I can tell you that if the npc were an option that might change, because I wouldn't have to dance around and jump through hoops to "get shit done" that was as simple as a brief exchange. but until it does... *shruggle*

[Desertman]

What about the delivery service talked about by the OP? A messenger service seems cool, even if people are afraid of the way other people would use it, but a delivery service seems very useful.

Seems like a pretty great business someone should start IC'ly.

It would require them to develop well known clout as being honest and trustworthy that they could then shift and mold into a business where people basically trust them by reputation to handle their goods/items/messages for them.

I would hate to see this great opportunity robbed away from someone (maybe me one day actually, seems like fun) by easy-mode-code implementation.

[Desertman]

And, just allow me to interject here, this is not an issue specific to the current character I have.

Then consider the question a universal "you" not related to your current character. You proposed the issue is these characters don't have money.

So the question still stands.

no. I proposed that was "a reason". not "the reason you can't". fact of the matter is, while some pcs manage to get insanely rich, most of mine never get anywhere near that. be damned if they piss away money on a messenger for anything. I will just literally completely let the matter go unresolved forever if it comes to it. because that sounds like a lot of unnecessary bullshit and work for something that 99% of the time I OOCly don't give enough of a fuck about to care. given the many people who obviously feel differently, and the fact that you seemed to think there was some personal angle which there wasn't, involved in it all, I was trying to speculate from their perspective.

yep, that's me. if you ask me to get in touch with someone and I never do? it's because they weren't around when I was for me to pester. or I forgot. or I didn't care. I'm pretty sure it mattered more to my character than it does to me the player, and probably they would have put more effort into making it happen somewhere but me as a player... nope, sorry. I spent 5 RL days trying to find you. even if I do find you at some point, it's clearly going to be like talking into a black hole of forever wait times or hoping that people who are going to paraphrase what I said into something hopelessly and pointlessly different deliver an amount of specifics that I would not and could not reasonably expect them to. so I just don't bother with it.

sorry if you put me in that position or are on the other end. I'm a flake like that. I can tell you that if the npc were an option that might change, because I wouldn't have to dance around and jump through hoops to "get shit done" that was as simple as a brief exchange. but until it does... *shruggle*

Eh, I'm not sure what you are on about exactly.

I've hired a lot of messengers in the game and it works out great and leads to interesting things.

I wasn't accusing you of being a bad messenger or whatever it is I think you are saying here.....you gave a reason, I asked you to give further details, I assumed your reason was from personal experience, so I asked you for further clarification. It wasn't from personal experience....fine....ok I guess.

[bardlyone]

no I wasn't assuming you were implying or saying anything about me being a bad messenger.

I was saying basically... just exactly what was said. if I thought you were saying that and felt it was important to touch on or refute somehow I would've spelled that part out, too. I try and be clear about what I'm supposing is said by stating it back, like the part where I said it seemed like you thought there was something personal in there involved as reasons go, so... if it's not included in a phrased bit that way, I'm responding to actual stuff typed and not something implied/inferred, but outright stated.

eh. basically: if I had to hire a pc to stable a mount, I wouldn't have a mount. since I can check one in and out of the stables reliably and for less than a skin of water with instant gratification, I have a mount. if an npc allowed passing messages with people who weren't around when I was to be as easy and cheap as stabling a mount, I might use them, it depends on implementation. but the time/sid/trust/etc needed for dealing with pc messengers makes it just as big a hassle as pushing my playtimes for RL days on end to actually find the person - and option 2 of those, doesn't require pissing money away which my pcs often don't have as much of as they'd like anyhow. if that makes more sense and seems to more concisely address your point/question?

[Molten Heart]

.

[Desertman]

Developing one's own messenger service or delivery service that one can come to trust and rely on seems like a lot of work. I'd rather spend my time working on other plots I enjoyed being engaged with, ones that others that are working with me, also enjoy where they don't spend a lot of time waiting around for other people.

It's not for everyone but I could have a lot of fun with it. I would hire third parties as outriders to pass messages and goods over distances for me for clients.

I would eventually probably get access to some very interesting information people started trusting me with.

I would enjoy connecting the dots between cryptic message A, and B, and C from multiple sources all using my services to get the big picture.

Damn. Now I want to do this. It sounds awesome.

[Desertman]

if an npc allowed passing messages with people who weren't around when I was to be as easy and cheap as stabling a mount, I might use them, it depends on implementation. but the time/sid/trust/etc needed for dealing with pc messengers makes it just as big a hassle as pushing my playtimes for RL days on end to actually find the person - and option 2 of those, doesn't require pissing money away which my pcs often don't have as much of as they'd like anyhow. if that makes more sense and seems to more concisely address your point/question?

Finding PC's/employees you can trust and are dependable can be a hassle I agree.

Then again, it sounds like part of the game that shouldn't go away.

I understand some people not liking that part, but I like it.

[Molten Heart]

.

[Tisiphone]

Sooooo....

Can someone explain to me exactly how this is different from the clan bulletin boards we already have in the game? And why that difference is a good thing?

Other than the fact that nobody ever uses the clan bulletins, that is.

[Delirium]

Sooooo....

Can someone explain to me exactly how this is different from the clan bulletin boards we already have in the game? And why that difference is a good thing?

Other than the fact that nobody ever uses the clan bulletins, that is.

First thought: Holy shit it's Tisiphone.

Second thought: that's what I've been wondering for this entire thread.

I feel like I've been alone in hating the transition from clan boards to GDB boards - I really wish that any clan communication had to be accessed in-game.

That includes clan documentation to a certain degree, such as rules and schedules and a "who's who".

(also, I hate check-in posts. I don't play so y'all can know who I am out of character. I play so that y'all can interact with my character. Not me.)

[Samoa]

Sooooo....

Can someone explain to me exactly how this is different from the clan bulletin boards we already have in the game? And why that difference is a good thing?

Other than the fact that nobody ever uses the clan bulletins, that is.

First thought: Holy shit it's Tisiphone.

Second thought: that's what I've been wondering for this entire thread.

I feel like I've been alone in hating the transition from clan boards to GDB boards - I really wish that any clan communication had to be accessed in-game.

That includes clan documentation to a certain degree, such as rules and schedules and a "who's who".

(also, I hate check-in posts. I don't play so y'all can know who I am out of character. I play so that y'all can interact with my character. Not me.)

You're not alone. I hate the clan GDB boards with a passion, and lament the loss of the clan bulletin boards in-compound. What's the point of even sneaking into an enemy compound to learn secrets? You can't. You can't even find out that someone got murdered in there two days before your arrival. Frankly, I don't even like the GDB that much, either. If we could just move back to Hypernews without it lagging the game every time someone refreshed...

[Talia]

About clan boards in game: There are a few reasons we don't use them more widely, and have moved to replace some of that communication on the GDB.

The main reason is that clan boards are hard-coded into the game and we can't just add new ones easily, like we can with most other objects. So newer clans, including player clans, don't de facto have boards for this reason.

A secondary reason is that clan boards require direct staff maintenance, for things like posting rules and whatnot (and I think we can all agree that the text editor is the worst), and then ongoing pruning of old posts, as well as responding to players' inevitable complaints about what is posted on the boards by others.

Third, and much more minor, clan boards are infallible. They say exactly what the poster wanted them to say, they are difficult to spy on for outsiders, and their messages don't expire unless staff removes them. They can't be bribed or manipulated or accidentally overheard.

I think a solution for passing messages in game would be really neat. We don't currently have anything even approaching a good method for doing that.

[nauta]

It'd be super cool to combine the two -- as with BIOGRAPHY.  That is, entering an entry into the thread 'Rumours' (or whatever it is for your clan)  would get slurped into the database of a certain NPC inside the clan (or the rumour board itself inside the clan) -- and vice versa.

I think, however, an NPC messenger is most useful for delivering messages between clans or between independents or from clan to independent.  I think in every clan I've been in, the leader has said something like: just PM me if you want me to log in!  So you can just PM your leader (usually) and deliver the message and they can log out.  But between clans or clan-independent interactions have no way of doing this.

So, perhaps the messenger could be something that takes no content, but just schedules:

tell NPC delivermessage Bob
The NPC says, "Ok, I'll let Bob know ya lookin' for him."

Then Bob logs in and does:

tell NPC messages
The NPC says, "Well, Suzy was lookin' for you last Detal in the Lord's Age of Whatevs."
The NPC says, "Well, Shivs was lookin' for you last Yochem in the Lord's Age of Whatevs."

[Dunetrade55]

What are you all talking about? I just AIM people when I have a concern. This is an effort to bring what would otherwise be OOC communication back into IC, and I, for one, think that would be of great benefit.

[Reiloth]

It'd be super cool to combine the two -- as with BIOGRAPHY.  That is, entering an entry into the thread 'Rumours' (or whatever it is for your clan)  would get slurped into the database of a certain NPC inside the clan (or the rumour board itself inside the clan) -- and vice versa.

I think, however, an NPC messenger is most useful for delivering messages between clans or between independents or from clan to independent.  I think in every clan I've been in, the leader has said something like: just PM me if you want me to log in!  So you can just PM your leader (usually) and deliver the message and they can log out.  But between clans or clan-independent interactions have no way of doing this.

So, perhaps the messenger could be something that takes no content, but just schedules:

tell NPC delivermessage Bob
The NPC says, "Ok, I'll let Bob know ya lookin' for him."

Then Bob logs in and does:

tell NPC messages
The NPC says, "Well, Suzy was lookin' for you last Detal in the Lord's Age of Whatevs."
The NPC says, "Well, Shivs was lookin' for you last Yochem in the Lord's Age of Whatevs."

This seems borderline pedantic though. A Noble,for instance, would log in and see like 80 messages for 'Soandso is looking for you'. At the end of the day it isn't about knowing someone is looking for you -- I already have enough guilt for not logging in 24/7 -- it's the typically simple message 'Go ahead with X instead of Y' that hinders plot development and slows things down to the pace of the United States Congress passing a bill on Immigration.

There are things that can and should happen behind the scenes, because they aren't that important of a detail, but they can and will hold up plots IG. I admire Desertman for hiring the minions he hires and having people do it in the game -- In my experience, it isn't always so simple though. People have variable playtimes, even within peak, and off-peak to be sure. I once played for a Noble that our only playtime overlap was Wednesday between 4-6:30PM. So much more could have developed, and been possible, between those two PCs if some sort of message relay system in the game were possible. One that allowed for spies/being overheard (which I feel was part of the importance of clan boards in the compound, should a spy come in and see what they are talking about).

Basically, something in the middle between extremes is what i'm looking for. I'd like communication to happen in the game -- I personally as well despise the GDB forums being used for anything besides documentation and playtimes. I hate the rumor boards. Why are these rumors being posted on the GDB and not being disseminated in the game?

My 2016 Presidency Platform:
*Eliminate GDB Rumor Threads
*Create a system that facilitates IG communication, and message passing, whether by PC or NPC
*Create a system that facilitates IG bag storage, and possible theft.

[Dar]

I once played for a Noble that our only playtime overlap was Wednesday between 4-6:30PM. So much more could have developed, and been possible, between those two PCs if some sort of message relay system in the game were possible. One that allowed for spies/being overheard (which I feel was part of the importance of clan boards in the compound, should a spy come in and see what they are talking about).

I dont get it. Why didnt you just write a message on the scroll and given it to your aide to go deliver it to that other person?

[Reiloth]

I once played for a Noble that our only playtime overlap was Wednesday between 4-6:30PM. So much more could have developed, and been possible, between those two PCs if some sort of message relay system in the game were possible. One that allowed for spies/being overheard (which I feel was part of the importance of clan boards in the compound, should a spy come in and see what they are talking about).

I dont get it. Why didnt you just write a message on the scroll and given it to your aide to go deliver it to that other person?

Played -for- a noble.

Having played a noble and templar and yada as well, I can say the 'deliver a scroll to someone else' basically puts the problem in someone else's lap. It doesn't mean it happens overnight, and often, you will ask the recipient 'Did you get my scroll?' and they will look at you cross-eyed. It makes for more of a headache than an actual useful tool.

In a weird world, I would like an NPC courier. I give the scroll to the courier, and say 'Deliver this message to Noble Fuckbutter'. The NPC than traipses about the city like a dandy until Noble Fuckbutter logs in. Then, the NPC courier goes over to Lord Fuckbutter's Estate and attempts to deliver the scroll. In the meantime, PCs could mug this NPC, or kill them, in an attempt to gain the scroll.

[Talia]

In a weird world, I would like an NPC courier. I give the scroll to the courier, and say 'Deliver this message to Noble Fuckbutter'. The NPC than traipses about the city like a dandy until Noble Fuckbutter logs in. Then, the NPC courier goes over to Lord Fuckbutter's Estate and attempts to deliver the scroll. In the meantime, PCs could mug this NPC, or kill them, in an attempt to gain the scroll.

This would be super-neat but with current code it's kind of a clusterfuck. For one thing, there is the semi-broken state of written objects--they just seem to get bugged very easily. For another thing, if the game crashes or otherwise reboots while the NPC is holding your message, the NPC and the message will both *poof*. And the message can't be retrieved since it's not actually saved in the database. Which, arguably would add to the insecurity and unreliability of the system, so maybe that's good? I don't know. Love the concept but our current code is a hindrance.

[Reiloth]

In a weird world, I would like an NPC courier. I give the scroll to the courier, and say 'Deliver this message to Noble Fuckbutter'. The NPC than traipses about the city like a dandy until Noble Fuckbutter logs in. Then, the NPC courier goes over to Lord Fuckbutter's Estate and attempts to deliver the scroll. In the meantime, PCs could mug this NPC, or kill them, in an attempt to gain the scroll.

This would be super-neat but with current code it's kind of a clusterfuck. For one thing, there is the semi-broken state of written objects--they just seem to get bugged very easily. For another thing, if the game crashes or otherwise reboots while the NPC is holding your message, the NPC and the message will both *poof*. And the message can't be retrieved since it's not actually saved in the database. Which, arguably would add to the insecurity and unreliability of the system, so maybe that's good? I don't know. Love the concept but our current code is a hindrance.

Yeah, totally. I think this another thing most people don't understand until they've gotten neck-deep into a Noble/Templar role and realize that while RW Sirihish/Etc. is nice...It is really a pain in the ass, and also unreliable.

I feel this is also a major holdup in the consideration of Reading/Writing for a more common populace (even if it were High Commoner, or what have you). Opening up the system to more people actually could hinder the game performance and just, well, it isn't perfect right now, so having more people use it really doesn't help.

[Suhuy]

I used to prefer IC clan boards as well. The trouble is they require being logged in to get all the info. If I'm a hiatus from the game for a week due to work or holiday, etc., I might still want to know what the latest is in my clan. Even when I'm not logged in, my character is still virtually a part of the world and would/should know the latest gossip. This is only possible with boards being accessible outside the game world.

As regards monthly role call posts, there are work arounds to not revealing who you are and when you play. Make an account solely for your clan and only post there to keep your anonymity. Also you don't HAVE to post what your play times are (or even post at all, if you really, truly don't want to). I see the role call posts as a courtesy to the players you will ideally be interacting with the most. Everyone hates the inability to work out when a character has kicked the bucket or not, the role calls help give us some inclination as to whether one of your fellow clanmates is still alive/has been seen.

[Desertman]

Make an account solely for your clan and only post there to keep your anonymity. Also you don't HAVE to post what your play times are (or even post at all, if you really, truly don't want to). I see the role call posts as a courtesy to the players you will ideally be interacting with the most.

This. It takes less than 60 seconds to do it and solves the problem. I do this every time I join a clan board.

[Lizzie]

1) regarding the concern that clan GDB fora are bad because you don't want people to know who's playing your character: that's why, when you ask to be added to the forum, you're asked which user name you want to use. I'm thinking from now on, I'll just use my character's name for the clan fora, and Lizzie for everything else. I just have to remember to log out and log back in as Lizzie when I want to do that (would LOVE to have an option similar to facebook option where you get a popup asking which name you want to post your current post under, before you hit the submit button). So this - is a total and complete non-issue.

2) I agree it sometimes feels like some players play the game on the GDB instead of in the game, and I agree that it doesn't sit right. For clan fora only - regarding RPTs: it'd be nice if Lady Muffy Fale would simply post:

There's an RPT coming up Saturday, 8PM server time. Will be at least 2 RL hours, there -will- be a quit-safe spot nearby. We need at least 3 PCs. Can I get a headcount of who *can* attend?

Strictly OOC coordination not of the event, but of the timing of the event. No information ABOUT the event, other than whether or not people can quit out if they can only make some of it.

Or something like:

Muffy Fale's post:
There is an inter-clan RPT coming up Saturday, 8PM server time. Blah blah blah, need at least 2 from Fale in addition to Lady Muffy herself. Headcount please.

So you know it's likely going to be a big or possibly long and confusing event, rather than just the usual weekly meeting in the clan hall.

All the stuff about...

Gate guards are all talking about seeing Malik stumble in, bleeding, and muttering something about elves and murderers and Borsail aides and gith, and he's carrying a gith spear tainted with bloodburn and looking for Lord Tenneshi...

that kind of stuff needs to be left to in-game clues. Drop a bloodied pair of sleeves and "arrange" it in front of Malik's locker so that everyone knows "something" happened to Malik, and let them find out the story totally in-game. Or let Amos take the sleeves and clean up because he doesn't want anyone to know that Malik got hurt, and wants people to think Malik's stark raving bonkers when he insists his clothes were so ripped they fell off his body when he got to his locker.

[Desertman]

Agreed.

I don't mind if someone posts obvious important things that every single PC and NPC in the clan on that side of the world would know.


An employee was caught being a traitor and was publicly executed? Everyone would hear about that. Go ahead.
There is a huge job coming up and it has something to do with gith, or spiders. Go ahead and drop the vague details and when people should show up.
Someone fucked up and got lashes in the public courtyard and berated by a family member for their shit? Yeah, most people would get that juicy gossip.



Flowers go in this chest, and armor goes in this chest, and weapons go in this chest and Sergeant Fancy will get mad if you change it. No....do this in game if you want this to be a thing unless your character is IC'ly spending a large portion of their day shouting this to the rooftops to the point it WOULD become a public spectacle everyone would mutter about...(and only because you are an obvious nutter).


Clan boards are not in place for you to push your own "things" you are personally working on out there as though they are the gospel. Clan boards are there to announce changes in policy, big shifts in routines or traditions, big events that would actually cause a stir in the clan gossip, or upcoming big events so people can attend them.

(Even the events themselves might not be big news and might be vaguely hinted at, and are put there mainly as an OOC courtesy to PLAYERS so they can show up and take part in the fun.)

They also serve the function of detailing as an OOC CONVENIENCE that you might not be around for a while if you OOC'ly have to go away. Even then, your IC reason for going away should be vague UNLESS your IC reason is in fact something amazing/outstanding/incredibly unusual and public. The "away posts" are really there for OOC knowledge and courtesy and should be treated that way.

[Riev]

All the stuff about...

Gate guards are all talking about seeing Malik stumble in, bleeding, and muttering something about elves and murderers and Borsail aides and gith, and he's carrying a gith spear tainted with bloodburn and looking for Lord Tenneshi...

that kind of stuff needs to be left to in-game clues. Drop a bloodied pair of sleeves and "arrange" it in front of Malik's locker so that everyone knows "something" happened to Malik, and let them find out the story totally in-game. Or let Amos take the sleeves and clean up because he doesn't want anyone to know that Malik got hurt, and wants people to think Malik's stark raving bonkers when he insists his clothes were so ripped they fell off his body when he got to his locker.

I would say that is the kind of thing for the in-game rumor boards, because it IS something people around the compound would be talking about. Mostly because you didn't put it WHAT EXACTLY was said, but just described the situation. Something like that would be rare, prompt people to then ASK Malik what actually happened, rather than "so I found these sleeves near the gate anyone know what they are?". However, I would say it is up to the player of Malik to decide to put this on the IG board, or not.


Back to a previous point: I've had time where someone has asked me to "pass something along" to a superior, and I accept full well knowing I might not log in on time to see them. So then my only course of action is to pass it along to someone else. This game of telephone COULD be interesting, but is a lot of wasted time then finding the superior later, and asking if they got the message, while the ORIGINAL PARTY already got a hold of them previously. These are times where I've told a number of clannies, or RPed talking to the gate guards to "mention it" to the Superior when they come in, and put it on the clan GDB. Usually its just "Kadius wants a word" or "Lord Templar Puff-N-Stuff wants a meeting, talk to his aide".

Its probably not 100% kosher or within people's comfort zones, but we're also playing a game. Its a completely OOC function that the person we need to talk to is unavailable for large periods of time.

That said, I think what happens currently isn't so bad. If its plot-line related, I DO understand. I've have numerous "time sensitive" things that needed either another player, or a staffer, to assist with and by the time 2 RL days have passed, it fizzles out and I just move on. It can be VERY frustrating (and hasn't happened recently) where you need to ask an NPC shopkeep something that happened less than an IG day ago, but by the time Staff get the request its been a few RL days and the "NPC couldn't possibly remember that". Or when, as an aide, your ONLY JOB was to talk to Lady Frills about her dress size, but by the time you see her she already has the dress in AND another order. It just plain sucks, but I havn't seen anything yet that really feels like THE ANSWER.