A few thoughts..

[th3kaiser]

This is why we have player complaints. Staff are great at addressing these sorts of issues. Chances are if you tell them of your concern, they'll have a chitchat with the person and try to work something out. Even if that something is a transfer for you.

[Desertman]

Having genderbended and seen for myself how the males in armageddon talk about female characters when they think no girls are around...

Hoo BOY.

I can easily see how a new player - especially someone less familiar with the intensity of truly roleplay-focused muds - could be driven away.

Regardless of what you think of the topic itself, it's worth keeping in mind that "harsh" should not come at the expense of everyone else's OOC comfort levels.

Eh, so long as I'm playing within the rules of the game I am working under the assumption they have also read the rules of the game and understand what to expect.

If they have a personal issue they should submit a report against me and see how that works for them.

Otherwise, adult game, adult themes, extremely rough situations usually involving extremely rough and terrible people in the extreme.



With that being said, the only notes I've ever gotten were specifically stating exactly how considerate I am of other players...many times over.

I play some of the worst, horrible, nasty, and vulgar PC's imaginable at times.

Not arguing for making people uncomfortable. I'm just saying:

If they aren't breaking the rules it is not their responsibility to change themselves for your feelings. It is your responsibility to report them and have a staffer either rebuke them to solve the problem if there is one, or possibly help you understand your situation is in fact that....your situation.

Then again I'm not easily offended by very much in the game, so, I'm willing to admit I'm voicing an opinion completely from one side of the trench.

Problem is - when you do something that's OOCly uncomfortable to me, most of the times I can just shrug it off. But if you're in my clan, and my character has to deal with you every RL day, and he's my character's boss, so I can't just tell him to fuck off ICly - it makes me want to not log in. It's not that I have a thin skin. It's just that you can only stretch it so far before it's time to say "enough."

Submit a complaint, find a new clan, or store or any combination of that you need in order to satisfy your personal needs.

Some people will just not play the game if other people don't play it how they feel they should play it, and that's unfortunate, but a reality that will never change.

[Majikal]

from Help rules

3. Sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being extremely
    mean to others that your character may meet, be it cheating, stealing,
    killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of.  The sole
    exception to this is termed 'the rule of consent', and is outlined
    both in "help consent" and in point 6, below.

This thread was about a newer player joining a mercenary group and having troubles adjusting to the mean nature of the pc's present. Lots of help/advice was offered but it looks like the player may have moved on sadly. I remember as a new player I took every offense to my pc to heart, most of my early pc's were literally just me + sdesc/mdesc rather than separate entities I was bringing to life. It can be difficult, even for vet players, to separate the ic abuse from the ooc feelings about it. Funny enough, I now prefer playing the kicked dog instead of the badass. How things have changed.

When in the company of new players, 9 times out of 10 I see players bend the reactions of their pc's to accommodate the player of the new pc oocly or simply ooc to help the new player along, referencing documentation/world/rules. Players are helpful. I've witnessed a fresh tuluki pc log into the gaj and with their first action, spit on a pc templar. They survived, they were brutalized in a cell of course, but it was clear the Templar wanted to help a pc understand some things about the game world and give the player a push in the right direction.

[Riev]

Based on some things players have said in game, and the supposed atmosphere they were trying to create, I've sent in complaints. Its usually a "This guy wants to be a mute but does <x> that a mute wouldn't be able to do" or "This guy is on a new account, with a 3line main description, and he's telling me all sorts of information about how to play the game like a vet".

On topic: I wasn't around for these supposed "Byn is too gross and nasty" times that the OP came across. What I did notice, of that character, is that while around he would not know the schedule and mercenary would say "You should know it by now, what are you stupid?" and then follow it up with "Its Nekrete. Go shovel the shitter".

Its possible there were things that went unnoticed. Its possible the player felt even this level of treatment felt like he was being OOCly shamed. I don't want to be 'that' person, but the few interactions my character had with the OPs, nothing seemed out of sorts. Certainly not enough to warrant 3 pages on "are we TOO gritty".

[Armaddict]

Seriously?

We've gotten to the point that me saying rough, coarse shit in this game that makes someone else uncomfortable OOC'ly is complaint worthy?

Jesus christ.  That's not even being newbie friendly.  That's like trying to bring this whole OOC movement that no one should ever be offended into the world of Armageddon.  Just like in real life, people are going to say shit that might offend you.  I suggest you get thicker skin, or you're going to be engaged in pointless battles over everyone's speech patterns.  It's just as pointless in game as it is in real life.  You're certainly free to be offended, but being offended is an entirely relative state of mind; You can't pin rules on that.  You can't make laws on that.  You can't enforce that.  Or else I'll start telling you a lot of ridiculous shit that other players do and we'll storm the staff with a bunch of complaints of 'he hurt my feelings' and 'I think this topic of conversation was inappropriate because it made me feel this way'.

Be offended and move on.

On to an actual thing to be taken seriously:
This is actually a PK mud.  Completely open PK.  But it's centered around roleplay instead of competition.  Trying to spread the impression that the mud is somehow -anti- pk is actually more harmful than the inverse.  Never...-ever- forget that fellow players may be looking to kill you, or every time it will feel like some giant injustice.  If you remember that it is a game rife with danger from every direction, including fellow players, then you can try to prep for it, and when it happens it's an 'oh no, he got me!' instead of 'What the fuck?!  THAT SON OF A BITCH!'

[Kankman]

Seriously?

We've gotten to the point that me saying rough, coarse shit in this game that makes someone else uncomfortable OOC'ly is complaint worthy?

Jesus christ.  That's not even being newbie friendly.  That's like trying to bring this whole OOC movement that no one should ever be offended into the world of Armageddon.  Just like in real life, people are going to say shit that might offend you.  I suggest you get thicker skin, or you're going to be engaged in pointless battles over everyone's speech patterns.  It's just as pointless in game as it is in real life.  You're certainly free to be offended, but being offended is an entirely relative state of mind; You can't pin rules on that.  You can't make laws on that.  You can't enforce that.  Or else I'll start telling you a lot of ridiculous shit that other players do and we'll storm the staff with a bunch of complaints of 'he hurt my feelings' and 'I think this topic of conversation was inappropriate because it made me feel this way'.

Be offended and move on.

On to an actual thing to be taken seriously:
This is actually a PK mud.  Completely open PK.  But it's centered around roleplay instead of competition.  Trying to spread the impression that the mud is somehow -anti- pk is actually more harmful than the inverse.  Never...-ever- forget that fellow players may be looking to kill you, or every time it will feel like some giant injustice.  If you remember that it is a game rife with danger from every direction, including fellow players, then you can try to prep for it, and when it happens it's an 'oh no, he got me!' instead of 'What the fuck?!  THAT SON OF A BITCH!'

It's okay Armaddict, you can simmer down. I think everyone where agrees offence is part of the beauty of the game we play.

The point I raised is that what I had seen in the Byn for a brief period of time, although repeated over a few RL days, was not something I'd experienced in ~16-18 years (really bad memory on when exactly I started playing).

The consent rule is there for a reason, and consistent ass-rape/sexual-violence commentary brushes up against that line that people need to ask for consent for, and for a reason.

I'm not sure how many people play Armageddon to hear about cocks getting shoved down their throats, or their asses being fucked without so much as spitting on it.

I posted my original comments in this thread to point out that as a player-base we should remain aware that there is a line, and sexuality is in fact that line. I wasn't around for Ronin's experiences, so I have no idea what the actual issue for that player was, but I do know that if I was a new player and one of my only experiences in the game were the ones that involved a bunch of immature rapey crap, I probably wouldn't have continued playing.

[BadSkeelz]

There is such a thing as just shitty players. Sometimes they get concentrated or follow each other around.

[Reiloth]

There is such a thing as just shitty players. Sometimes they get concentrated or follow each other around.

Mostly this, for sure.

[Talia]

The consent rule is there for a reason, and consistent ass-rape/sexual-violence commentary brushes up against that line that people need to ask for consent for, and for a reason.

I'm not sure how many people play Armageddon to hear about cocks getting shoved down their throats, or their asses being fucked without so much as spitting on it.

I posted my original comments in this thread to point out that as a player-base we should remain aware that there is a line, and sexuality is in fact that line. I wasn't around for Ronin's experiences, so I have no idea what the actual issue for that player was, but I do know that if I was a new player and one of my only experiences in the game were the ones that involved a bunch of immature rapey crap, I probably wouldn't have continued playing.

These are good points and should be considered. Staff does not want to see rape-talk in game either. We are pretty serious about the no-rape plot policy.

Players are strongly encouraged to put in complaints when this kind of thing happens. We can and do investigate and follow up. We can't/won't tell you what we DO about your complaint, but I 100% promise you that if something needs to be done, we will.

The sexual violence line is not one where staff will just chalk it up to, "eh, players are mean sometimes." Nope. Nor do we take kindly to violations of the consent rules.

[SuchDragonWow]

Regardless of whether that's true, it doesn't help anything to vague it on the GDB.  And yeah, what Kankman describes, I would probably just ignore, but it does approach the line.  I would ask consent if it was that graphic.  Btw, I'm assuming this is someone talking about it.  Emoting it crosses the line, for certain.   See: Help rape.

Eta: what talia said

[BadSkeelz]

Regardless of whether that's true, it doesn't help anything to vague it on the GDB.  And yeah, what Kankman describes, I would probably just ignore, but it does approach the line.  I would ask consent if it was that graphic.  Btw, I'm assuming this is someone talking about it.  Emoting it crosses the line, for certain.   See: Help rape.

I think we can all agree that if we see questionable or outright illegal behavior that cannot (or should) be ignored or brushed aside, the best way to deal with it is filing a Player Complaint. Everyone knows what they do and do not like to see in play, but Staff are the arbiters of the rules.

It's also more than OK too OOC and say you're not comfortable with a scene. Responsible players will understand and adjust.

[Armaddict]

I'm not sure how many people play Armageddon to hear about cocks getting shoved down their throats, or their asses being fucked without so much as spitting on it.

This is literally more I've heard about such than in years of play.  So apparently, either there's one or two really bad apples, or there's some serious exaggeration going on.

However, my reference was less about 'rape talk' (because as Talia said, there is no grey area there, that's been pretty clearly defined), and more about cocks and asses altogether.  The impression I get from this thread is not 'rape talk' (until these last couple posts), it's crudeness and roughness.

The only grey area I see here is when a rough and tumble mercenary screams 'Let's go skullfuck these bitches and take their women!' in which case if that's what's making you uncomfortable, I stand by my original position; sometimes, rough and disgusting shit will be said.  But it's hardly unreal.  It's hardly something where we need to get overly sensitive.  Or if you choose to be sensitive over it, it's hardly something worthy of a complaint.

If there were an elven character who singled out a human pc and started threatening to drag her out into an alley and force himself and make half-elves, though, sure.  That could cross the line.  Because it's direct.  It's imminent.  It's intent.  It's not being used as a figure of speech or environment, and that would clearly go against the ruling.

It's also more than OK too OOC and say you're not comfortable with a scene. Responsible players will understand and adjust.

Also incredibly valid and suitable.

Edit:  In essence, if you're trying to say that the drill sergeant from Full Metal Jacket offends you when it's in game, I don't know what to say.  But when it's someone very clearly making that threat of sexual violence, then that is, of course, clearly under the rules.  Saying lewd things about rough sex does not equal sexual aggression, it's just being a crude, shocking, perhaps disgusting motherfucker.  But...as in the last line...if you think someone's toeing that line, ooc about it, and if it -persists-...that's where I'd make a complaint, so that staff could decide whether or not it's a legitimate complaint or not.

[Desertman]

Eh, it used to be commonplace for Byn Sergeants to yell at Runners, "Get your ass in gear or I swear to Tek I will skull fuck you into next week Runner!".

Nobody except silly people who WANTED TO BE OFFENDED found that offensive because nobody with any common sense actually believed it was a literal threat.

(Which is probably more than a few people, because this is the internet.)



I'm trying to think of a single time in game where I've ever seen anyone threaten someone with sexual violence where I took it seriously and not just as a metaphor for, "Fuck you up.", and I can't think of a single one. (I'm sure it has happened, I'm just saying, in the thousands of situations I've probably been a part of, none of them ever seemed literal to me.)

But it is better to just play it safe these days.

There was a time I would threaten to skull fuck a Runner. Now I will just threaten to skull fuck their corpse. Necrophilia is in fact not against the rules, and not rape.

[Talia]

I'm trying to think of a single time in game where I've ever seen anyone threaten someone with sexual violence where I took it seriously and not just as a metaphor for, "Fuck you up.", and I can't think of a single one. (I'm sure it has happened, I'm just saying, in the thousands of situations I've probably been a part of, none of them ever seemed literal to me.

To point out the obvious: You don't play female PCs and so it's statistically less likely to happen directly to you and maybe also less likely to happen around you, if you're hanging out with mostly other dude PCs.

From staff side, I've heard about and (disturbingly) witnessed sexual violence roleplay happening to both female and male PCs.

I think it's much better to just threaten other PCs with maiming and/or death and leave the sexual violence threats out.

And again, as previously noted, graphic roleplay of any nature does require consent. Depending on how explicit it is, that could include "just" talking. Why not be safe, and request consent? It's no big deal.

I know all you guys know this stuff and I'm preaching to the choir. We really don't have many players who ever knowingly/intentionally violate the rules.

[BadSkeelz]

I used to threaten to geld and/or sew up my soldiers in the AoD because their high school sex antics were threatening Unit cohesion and readiness. At the time I meant it, too. I never knew if I'd actually go through with it, because I felt I was entering the grey area.

Incidentally, all those soldiers wound up killing each other over their relationships with the last of them fed to my beetle. After getting consent from all present of course (including the beetle). Fun times

[Desertman]

I'm trying to think of a single time in game where I've ever seen anyone threaten someone with sexual violence where I took it seriously and not just as a metaphor for, "Fuck you up.", and I can't think of a single one. (I'm sure it has happened, I'm just saying, in the thousands of situations I've probably been a part of, none of them ever seemed literal to me.

To point out the obvious: You don't play female PCs and so it's statistically less likely to happen directly to you and maybe also less likely to happen around you, if you're hanging out with mostly other dude PCs.

From staff side, I've heard about and (disturbingly) witnessed sexual violence roleplay happening to both female and male PCs.

I think it's much better to just threaten other PCs with maiming and/or death and leave the sexual violence threats out.

And again, as previously noted, graphic roleplay of any nature does require consent. Depending on how explicit it is, that could include "just" talking. Why not be safe, and request consent? It's no big deal.

I know all you guys know this stuff and I'm preaching to the choir. We really don't have many players who ever knowingly/intentionally violate the rules.

Yeah I'm sure you've seen me ask for consent for things that arguably don't even need consent.....I'm one of those people.

As much as people like to say, "Just play it safe.".

I'm still in the camp of, "Don't be a whiny crybaby over a videogame like a little bitch.".

I'm not going to intentionally make you cry, but I'm not going to give you enough rope to complain about everything, because you will....because internet.

[Jingo]

Sexual harassment is no big deal. The men and women who find it uncomfortable are whiny baby-people that don't understand we're playing a grit-ridden gritty game of grittageddon.

*Does a Jihelu and kills himself*

[Armaddict]

Sexual harassment is no big deal. The men and women who find it uncomfortable are whiny baby-people that don't understand we're playing a grit-ridden gritty game of grittageddon.

*Does a Jihelu and kills himself*

If that's the context you get out of it, you need help with reading comprehension.

But I think you're smarter than that, and so I just think you're just being intentionally obtuse in differentiation.

[Desertman]

Sexual harassment is no big deal. The men and women who find it uncomfortable are whiny baby-people that don't understand we're playing a grit-ridden gritty game of grittageddon.

*Does a Jihelu and kills himself*

If that's the context you get out of it, you need help with reading comprehension.

But I think you're smarter than that, and so I just think you're just being intentionally obtuse in differentiation.

Don't feed him.

[Jingo]

I think most people just don't know what sexual harassment is. Or understand how damaging it can be.

[Armaddict]

You're right.  I'm a total ignoramus.  Or I just cleverly camouflage myself in real life so that I can show my true colors in my video game that purposely ditched real life morality.

Thumbs up for your approach.

[Desertman]

Not related to the above posts, but, I absolutely blame Full Metal Jacket for a lot of the Byn Sergeants I have seen....and I say that with as much praise as humanly possible. 

[WanderingOoze]

I Did in fact play with Op's Pc, and I'm pretty sure he just took things the wrong way. Or, the Right way..but too personally.

No one threatened to rape anyone. And being one of the people who nearly killed him in the sparring he alluded to, My Mercy -was- on
as it almost always is unless purposefully trying to do Harm. It was a total accident. Being buff asf+good neckhits sometimes can nearly
kill a PC even with mercy on, as I'm sure many of you probably already know. 

I just thought I'd chime in because of all the speculation about..sexual harassment, to say, no one was going to violate him anally. Nor, threatened to do
so. At least not from what I witnessed.  This thread took an odd turn in the middle there.

[MeTekillot]

Have you tried gitting gud?

[yousuff]

Hey guys what's happening in h-



Can we keep the thread on topic? Like non sexual stuff? Cos none of that is relevant, and the rules are fairly clear on what's ok and what's not