A few thoughts..

[Ronin39]

First and foremost my initial impressions of Armageddon..a very serious intense roleplay mud no doubt about that but what has really got me rattled is the ic treatment does not matter if its ic or not the treatment my pc has been unspeakably awful especially after joining the t'sa byn or whatever it is.. i get that the land is harsh and resources are few but being a new player and waking up my pc only to have him swore at degraded and humiliated is in my view not acceptable especially for a new player just trying to explore and learn the layout of the land there is little fun in that on a daily basis and  pcs within the byn sparring with mercy off  more unacceptable crap.. what i wanna know is why are the pcs so mean and nasty just because the lands harsh makes no sense to me this mud is very intense and morally degrading to the pcs there is no fun in that.. tavern pricks starting fights over nothing when your just trying to talk and learn things. I was enjoying this mud but the byn or some of the byn pcs just too fucking nasty of treatment parden my french to even enjoy the land not to say the pcs are all awful my pc found a few nice helpful folk but few far between so im sorry my pc is disbanded from the byn he cant take the cruelty nature of the behavior from pc byn members when he hardly knows the ways yet and i thought hed be paid for being clanned instead he had to pay to be treated as dog shit im sure youll have thoughts so before i post this im gonna say maybe its just ur pcs and how you play them maybe ur decent ppl but i and my pc cannot handle that theres no fun in that aside from that also im gonna add that i posted my playing times as i was asked and still my pc catches hell for missing drills? Really..well closed book guys and ladies so if ur pcs in the byn dont accept his departure for these reasons then do what your pcs must do but ill just recreate no worries there.. having him nearly killed in a spar and other byn members having issues with  him having done absolutely nothing to provoke issues is warrant enough to disband him selflessly... thanks

[BadSkeelz]

PCs can be mean. PCs who are part of a hardscrabble, ill-reputed, extremely gritty and dangerous clan as the T'zai Byn can be especially mean. Zalanthas is a harsh, cruel world and characters often reflect that in their personalities.

Remember that other characters being mean to your character is not because the other player want to be mean to you, the player. They're acting appropriately for their character and showing you how this world functions. It can be really distressing, but it's important to remember that In-character is In-character and is not driven by any kind of Out of Character malice. Even then Armageddon might just not be the setting for you.

Wait until you see your character's first real friend get her tongue torn out by your boss, then you'll feel some angst.

[BadSkeelz]

Also you shouldn't say who you're playing in public on the GDB, or air complaints. The best way to do this is through Player Complaints via the request tool.

[SuchDragonWow]

Most of us aren't actually mean outside of the game, but our characters have questionable morals and ethics.  Trust me, I've heard so much bullshit about things my CHARACTER did that is supposed to reflect on me, as a person, that I've come to just laugh it off.  You need to accept that people are trying to portray a fiction, a dangerous and unforgiving one, and if those lines of fiction and reality are too blurry for you, then you might want to evaluate that. 

[Lizzie]

The T'zai Byn are mercenaries. Knowing nothing else about them, and only that one thing, should be a clue that they're not going to be mollycoddling your character or trying to make him feel warm and fuzzy inside. If your character didn't want to pay the 300 sids to join, you shouldn't have agreed for him to join. If your PC wanted to know how much it paid, he should've asked.

Also, it really does matter if it's IC or OOC. If your character was an easy mark for harshness, he'll get treated harshly. If you rolled up an elf - expect him to not be treated well by humans or any PC clan, until your character has earned the right to be treated well by them. If you rolled up a half-elf, expect him not to be treated well by anyone at all, until your character has earned the right to be treated better than the abomination that he is. If you rolled up a human, and you went into the situation knowing that you're the "new guy in town" and you need to break your character in and learn the ropes, and approached the RP as someone who is willing to learn and fit in, then you should expect that at least someone would've attempted to give your character a hand in accomplishing that. If that didn't happen, a player complaint through the main website's request tool would be the appropriate venue to get it resolved.

[Jihelu]

I edited this comment for tone. To rephrase, while in combat you can remove yourself by fleeing or disengaging.

[Armaddict]

Sometimes it does get old.

However, the very important thing for you to do is not take it personally...but if your character is one to take it personally, your character should.  I've had characters who left the Byn over it, and I've had characters who laughed at others for not being able to hack it.  Play around it.  Play with it.  Let it affect your character.  Let it develop into grudges and disapproval, or let it turn them into a hardass, or make it so they develop this harsh, craggy exterior over what innocence your character maintained, secluded on the inside.

The gist of it?  It's rough.  The game is mean.  The playerbase is often apathetic towards the struggles of others, because we've all gone through these things before.  It is, actually, a much more tight-knit community than the GDB makes it sound, because we all have this sort of masochistic survivalism ingrained in us over our character deaths and struggles.  You'll be joining that community, but in the beginning, it seems like the game is out to get you.  That's because it is, and this is what I believe many come to unexpectedly enjoy.

So again, don't take it personally.  Roll with those punches.  Chuckle at the funny insults that get tossed your way.  Sometimes, it will come about in a weird way that these assholes are the most trustworthy people you know.  Other times, you'll suspect they all want you dead.  It's actually kind of a beautiful thing, when it comes to a roleplaying game...this is not just another rendition of 'form a party and get loot'.

[Majikal]

Hey Ronin, just some tips from a fellow player here. Often you'll find pc's that are inherently mean, racist, or talking shit. As has been said above, don't take it personally. In cases like your own the players recognize that's you're a new player however they will stay true to the role and personality of their current pc. Lots of times players will bend their pc's reactions to your pc thematically so that they are indeed helping (oocly) by giving information/not stabbing you in the eyeball  while giving you what you need as a newer player to help you along. If you ask for help with something you don't understand using the ooc command or helper chat, 99.9% of the time you'll find your fellow players aren't the assholes they're roleplaying and very willing to help you out with any questions you have so long as they follow the guidelines under Help ooc. Armageddon can be a lot to take in and many players understand that, keep on keepin on brother!

Also, definitely utilize the helper chat! There's usually helpers online to answer questions on the fly for you.

[Norcal]

Hey Ronin.

Joining the Byn is one of the easiest things for a new player to do, in terms of getting a job.  Yet the Byn is not always new player friendly in some aspects, like the ones you have pointed out above. I can remember being a fairly new player and having a clan leadership PC do some really stupid things, just to be mean. Things that just made no real sense in terms of the documentation or in any other way. Oh well. A carru ended that PC soon after and I went forward with a better understanding of things.

I think that the learning curve of Arm is very steep, and it is not reasonable for you to be expected to understand the ins and outs of play and of clans like the Byn, right out of the box. For some folks it takes time and a few PCs before things start to make some sense. 

There are more than a few that do their best to help new players IC when we can find them. However this is not the rule and the game world does not care if you are new or a vet. If Amos was being mean and nasty to your PC, then that is really too bad because Amos is a mean and nasty person. In game. In real life his player might be a kind and gentle florist.  And although  I agree that sometimes other players can make the game less fun, once you are up to speed with syntax and understand some things about the game,  you will be able to deal with this type of play in a better way.

My advice to you would be to play on and play through it, because once you get past these types of hurdles, you will really enjoy the game and have FUN. Use helper chat if you need to ask questions or if you just need to vent!  And if you really really feel that someone was just overboard, you can use a player complaint and ask staff to look into it. Make sure you have cause though and are not just upset. If you are just upset..then get on helper chat.

Many of us really want new players to come and we want them to stay.  So we welcome you and we want to encourage you!

[wizturbo]

I don't want to come off as mean, but your writing style might also be an underlying issue here.  Based on your paragraph with no punctuation, spacing, or capitalization I wouldn't be surprised if that also translates to in-game writing, and you might be catching some flak purely for that reason.  

For text based games, writing skills are pretty essential.   It's almost like MUD hygiene.  No one wants to play around the smelly guy.  This especially sucks for players where English is a second language, and if you're one of those people I certainly don't want my post to come across as discouraging.  Keep at it, and that'll improve with time.  If the issue is mostly with your desire to write quickly (I know i'm guilty of this more often than I'd like), you might find that spending a little extra time with your writing could go a long way in encouraging more positive interactions from a strictly OOC perspective.

[Riev]

Disappointing to say the least. But if you do come back to read this, take what others have said to heart. 99/100 players will recognize you as a newbie, and try to help you out. Unfortunately, when you're new, we can't handhold and suddenly do things our characters wouldn't do. I would VERY MUCH suggest the Helpers, or try to find someone to take you into a room alone to OOC chat over syntax you might be missing.

If your main contention is that 'people were mean' or 'talked abusively', please remember you joined a clan/guild/group who virtually does the majority of their recruiting out of the jails, from people who are either going to be executed, or join the Byn as a last ditch effort to stay alive. If you have trouble with the setting, or knowing what your character should be doing, a bunch of hard-assed mercenaries are going to give you shit about it.

Arm is not easy. It requires patience, and time to sit and think about what is IC for your character to do. If it makes sense to rebel against your clan because they were mean... go for it. If your character was supposed to be Muscular Badass Amos the Destroyer... you might need to step outside your character, and be an onlooker.

[Harmless]

Sometimes roleplaying a character in the Byn is very fulfilling. It is one of the only experiences where I may sometimes truly feel like my character belongs to a band of mercenaries, almost rag-tag but with a few exceptionally good and experienced mercs leading the pack to chaos. Bottom line is that it is also a big clan, consistently, so you are most likely to see a slice of every type of Zalanthan. Including, tragically, the unbelievably crude, brutal, and cold ones as well.

The key is not to react too strongly to what is thrown at you. Your character is there because they wanted to be (though many change their mind about being Byn soon after they go in. Sadly, in Zalanthas, your character paid the equivalent of a contract, and leaving the Byn is not always so simple.

Here are my tips.

1.) Know your character's life may be lost with the next big/dangerous mission. If you get into one of those missions, you may have a chance at surviving it to tell the tale or you might conveniently die and get to reroll. Bynners are rarely permanent.
2.) Recognize the low position Bynners have in most societies. I know you're still learning the setting, but most Bynners ICly understand that they are seen as disposable (by most but not all).
3.) Maybe your character joined the Byn for other reasons besides the usual "glory, guts, coin, and good training in killing." But, if they did, then they're the minority. Being the minority in a hot, sweaty, stinky camp that serves salt-broth and dry-tack is unlikely to be pleasant. Maybe your character is cunning enough to learn to pretend to be "a typical merc," but as soon as they get out they can revert to their true, likely more gentle selves.
4.) Fighting isn't everything, and you will likely lose at all your fights for the first year. There is a lot of code silliness behind fighting that experienced players know how to min/max to get good results. Maybe your character is codedly weak, and you suffer more Bynner discrimination as a result. If you're confused as to why your character is weak, and this one is part of the problem, just ask and we'd be happy to explain to you how you too can kick ass in this DIKU-based MUD. Hint: it's about training up skills regularly but not overly; basically, characters can learn a little bit of several skills in a day, then they need to digest that before they practice again. Or, they need to recover from their wounds, which may not have caused HP damage but will leave bruises or welts or whatever.

Hope that helps. On a personal note, I've totally been there, I've had my characters called anachronistic curse-words repeatedly or had my characters forced into awful situations, which weren't always enjoyable. The Byn really is kind of a cess-pit, and for whatever reason the playerbase seems fond of keeping it that way. Many character concepts just don't fit the Byn life or playing style, whatever you want to call it. On the other hand, it is REALLY REALLY fun to kill Bynners. So I'm glad they're around.

[RogueGunslinger]

That sounds like a shitty experience. I'm sorry you went through that. Despite what people are saying I've found the Byn to be a pretty pleasant place despite the "hardened merc atmosphere". I think there's generally going to be people who totally have your back. That's just my experience with the place though. The players make the clan, really.

I don't like when people bitch and moan about the newbie who keeps falling off his mount or doesn't know how to flee in time, or who misses chores. There are things that new characters(not even noobs) will do that, as a vet, you should recognize are going to happen and take it in stride instead of venting your OOC frustrations on those players. However if you're purposefully skipping chores or being a dick to your clannies, or just playing a frustrating character in general, it is quite likely that you will receive some IC ire and you should expect that. And then sometimes you will just be someone's punching bag, just like in real life if they have power to exert over you it will be exerted. I find those sorts are usually pretty rare, and someones a person had a bad day before they logged in and they will bring that shit with them into the IC world. It sucks, but I don't think it is very common. After all we're all here to have a good time.

All that said if you played a breed or an elf you had that shit coming.

[Yam]

Most of us go through shit like this at first.

My first PC got thrown off a rooftop for insulting some Borsail Wyverns.

You'll come to cherish it.

[Raptor_Dan]

Hi Ronin,

I'm sorry for what your char went through. I saw you interacting with the Byn, and I, myself, was like "Oh shit. I really want to take that guy out into the streets and help them learn the ropes." However, I saw some people were using OOC to communicate with you, and I expected you would get some rope-learning from them. I would have done it, but it would make absolutely no sense for my char to do so. It would have been like the villain taking aside a villager in a horror novel to show them around town.

Most of are players are really nice people. I'm not one of those, generally, I'm kind of a belligerent asshole, but even so, I love this game so much I want more newbies to play it, and sometimes go too far out of my way to help.

I remember my first char. I rolled up an elf because I wanted my char to be pretty, and graceful, and kind of woodsy. Heh. I didn't read enough of the documentation, and was tortured by krathi's and alleged psionicists. I basically created the equivalent of a space-robot to play in a western. Even if my char survived, it would not have fit in, and the story would have been horrible.

Your char basically joined a gang. A gang of criminals and murderers. I hope you come back, though, and become one of the best criminal murderers ever, or, alternatively, become super badass and kill them all with a vengeance after years of careful plotting.

[SuchDragonWow]

Welcome to the Byn!

[yousuff]

Hey Ronin, sorry to hear you haven't been enjoying the Byn. I tried to approach your character in as IC a way possible, unfortunately you were mostly interacting with elves from what I saw, which as a human you should be wary of as per the docs. Hope you've better experiences elsewhere, I know I tried to help you out as much I could while remaining true to my role

Edit to add:
You mentioned about almost dying during sparring. When to flee will be something you pick up quick, and if you do get knocked out or whatever and are surrounded by sparring partners who don't like you, do expect them to potentially do awful things to you. I've lost more than one character to training accidents. As for the nomercy bit, maybe it was intentional, but I know if I leave nomercy off during a spar it's more than likely an OOC mistake, but still one best dealt with in an IC way. (OOC = out of character, IC = In character)

[Raptor_Dan]

Eh? You joined a Bynner Elf Group? Don' you know you're a human?

Is like saying in real life

Whoa whoa whoa. You joined the Bloods? Don' you know you're white?

[MeTekillot]

[Yam]

Unless you're in the 'rinth.

[Is Friday]

You might also want to primarily play from a computer. Playing from a phone is rough.

[Chettaman]

That sounds like a shitty experience. I'm sorry you went through that. Despite what people are saying I've found the Byn to be a pretty pleasant place despite the "hardened merc atmosphere". I think there's generally going to be people who totally have your back. That's just my experience with the place though. The players make the clan, really.

I don't like when people bitch and moan about the newbie who keeps falling off his mount or doesn't know how to flee in time, or who misses chores. There are things that new characters(not even noobs) will do that, as a vet, you should recognize are going to happen and take it in stride instead of venting your OOC frustrations on those players. However if you're purposefully skipping chores or being a dick to your clannies, or just playing a frustrating character in general, it is quite likely that you will receive some IC ire and you should expect that. And then sometimes you will just be someone's punching bag, just like in real life if they have power to exert over you it will be exerted. I find those sorts are usually pretty rare, and someones a person had a bad day before they logged in and they will bring that shit with them into the IC world. It sucks, but I don't think it is very common. After all we're all here to have a good time.

All that said if you played a breed or an elf you had that shit coming.

Hey, Ronin.
Sorry, bro. I noticed you might be having a hard time "fitting in" and did nothing about it. -- I remember once I had a half elf that joined the byn in for nearly an IC year sparred by himself and literally no one tried to help me. And that's good. They roleplayed accordingly. ... but man. Did it fucking suck...

Anyway, I'm no fool. ... (I don't think) and I noticed you /really/ getting crap from pretty much everyone for the smallest things and I could tell it was all in character stuff and I can tell from your post that you understand that. My suggestion would be, "Eff those mother effers and abandon your duties! -- accept whatever consequences, get stronger and smarter than anyone that might try to kill you, eff bitches, gather coins, then smoke spice until you effing get so high you go straight to whatever place you go to when you effing die."

Other options: (I have no idea if you've tried these already)
- request for change of byn sarge
- send in a request to the staff to leave the byn through a VNPC byn sargeant if a PC byn sargeant has already denied such request
- fake your death
- get on with someone important and have them steal you from the byn
- use your cunning to make all of those that give you shit think you're doing perfect. (including bribery)
- Hire assassins to take care of those that bully you
- Do your best to bully them back on your own or with a group.

It's a good thing you let someone know.
Again, I know you got shit for no reason. I know that you know and are just trying to make changes to enjoy your time with us which is awesome. Don't stop. Make adjustments and roll on. That's a good attitude. I can say for certain that other less militant groups are more friendly, but groups like the byn and the arm give people a reasonable excuse to be hard asses. Might I suggest, next time, salarr! While the byn is great for new characters to learn "the ropes" I can testify that sometimes it's the worst environment for people who aren't up for being militants.
Salarr and kadius are both pretty laid back. Firm, but laid back in terms of where to be, how to be there and what you should be doing. In fact, I remember once in salarr, I had a guy that never went out to hunt. He would go into other people's little hunt-boxes or whatever and take stuff from them and put it in his own box. It was good stuff. Or, of course... you can just go out and hunt which is fine! There are rules, but no one's going to expect you to have much discipline.

[yousuff]

You might also want to primarily play from a computer. Playing from a phone is rough.

*Cough*
I play exclusively from my phone and do ok

Back ontopic though; Ronin do as you feel is appropriate for your character to do. Hell, you can use this whole experience as justification to hate the Byn, and come back in a few years and use it as an excuse to murder everyone in it if you felt like it. I mean it's not likely, but don't be discouraged!

[Rhei]

*Cough*
I play exclusively from my phone and do ok

How the drov do you even...

Anyway, OP, I'm sorry to hear you feel that way. Just know that these are (I hope) entirely IC reactions to actions your character may or may not have done. The people of Zalanthas are an incredibly prejudiced and distrustful lot, for the most part. When a character goes against what most other people would consider normal, you may expect to be shunned or ridiculed. This is roleplay, and I'm sure those behind the keyboards don't wish you, as a player, any ill will.

As for your character, you could have this develop in whatever way you'd choose! You could suck it up until you're finally someone people would rather not mess with... maybe even return a couple of favors. It'll be rough, of course, but learn to take these things in stride and you'll really start enjoying the game.

[Dar]

Im a little worried that so many replies to this port have "kill them all" suggestions. Kind of makes it sound like this is some kind of a PK mud. It's not.

You joined a military band of mercenaries.  You might as well have joined Pirates. Don't be surprised they are all a bunch of low class assholes. Believe me, the players are not. Another day,  they'd play a different character and you'd be amazed at their gentlemanly natures. Then you should get 'reaaaally' worried.  

[manonfire]

Your feelings < ---------------------------------------- | ----------------------------------------> Your character's feelings

[anvilsmith]

Most of my character's interactions were with characters that did not have a bad attitude. Admittedly, a few were rotten thieves and a few were elves of the lowest sort, but most were reasonable people who would not have given your character hell for no reason. My suggestion is that you have your character find a better group of people to interact with in the future. If your stint with the Byn didn't work out, try to change to a different sergeant or join a merchant house.

And if your character was indeed in a group full of elves, and they treated your character badly, it was to be expected on their part. Elves are arrogant and treacherous people in this game.

[Reiloth]

Most of my character's interactions were with characters that did not have a bad attitude. Admittedly, a few were rotten thieves and a few were elves of the lowest sort, but most were reasonable people who would not have given your character hell for no reason. My suggestion is that you have your character find a better group of people to interact with in the future. If your stint with the Byn didn't work out, try to change to a different sergeant or join a merchant house.

And if your character was indeed in a group full of elves, and they treated your character badly, it was to be expected on their part. Elves are arrogant and treacherous people in this game.

+1, very true and good advice. When in doubt, try another place out. I've had great times in the Byn, and horrible times in the Byn. It isn't anyone's fault -- Some people don't mesh well with others, playstyle wise, and PC wise. There's a fine combination of chemistry where everything 'clicks' for everyone in a clan. And in a place like the Byn, there is a whole range of playstyles and PCs.

Try Salarr. The freedom of playing a hunter, but having the relative comfort of city life when you want it/need it.
Try Kurac. The self-professed kings of Luirs Outpost. Sometimes it's fun to play the outcast bully with their own sand castle.
Try Dust Runners. It's an exciting life being a spice smuggler, especially if you force yourself to take risks.
Try Arm of the Dragon. Typically not a newibe friendly clan, but it bred BadSkeelz, so it can't be all that bad.
Try just roughing it outdoors. You meet all sorts of interesting people. My first 5 PCs were unaffiliated beetle-feeders.

[Case]

Most of my character's interactions were with characters that did not have a bad attitude. Admittedly, a few were rotten thieves and a few were elves of the lowest sort, but most were reasonable people who would not have given your character hell for no reason. My suggestion is that you have your character find a better group of people to interact with in the future. If your stint with the Byn didn't work out, try to change to a different sergeant or join a merchant house.

And if your character was indeed in a group full of elves, and they treated your character badly, it was to be expected on their part. Elves are arrogant and treacherous people in this game.

Try Arm of the Dragon. Typically not a newibe friendly clan, but it bred BadSkeelz, so it can't be all that bad.

I still apologise for breeding BadSkeelz

[BrokenRomance]

Hey Ronin, sorry your first experience with Armageddon MUD wasn't very exciting.

I actually skipped the "Join the Byn first" experience as a new player, and I have to say I don't regret it. I still haven't played a single Byn PC. If you're really having trouble with this character, and can't find anything else to do with it you can just store it, there really isn't any shame in doing that.

If you missed a lot of IC time that was required of you, I'd really urge you to try out an unaffiliated PC. A indie merchant or a hunter. They're very fun to play in their own way, and you aren't required to logon any time but when you want to for that sort of thing because you work for yourself.

[Reiloth]

The Atrium is another really good choice for a newbie PC. It's actually designed with new players in mind. It introduces you to the realm of Allanaki Politics, which can be another intriguing way into ArmageddonMUD. I highly recommend it.

[Barsook]

I agree about the Atrium, but it's mostly for those folks who want to play non-combat based characters.  Keep in mind that aiding isn't like a servant and it can go many different ways.  You might find that you are better off playing a solical-poltical type of personalty. I have. I would advise you to have your character hang in the Red's Retreat not the Gaj for many reasons, one is you can meet your potential employer.

You can also role up a crafter, but keep in mind that you still need to socialize.

I would also suggest to work on another concept and if you don't like how your current is going, store and play the new one.  But I would suggest to read the docs on the various clans and info about Allanak and the other areas.

[Dresan]

Mean-ness is okay, its the ooc-esque ranting some of your guys do in a vague IC way that annoys me. You people know who you are, and I wish you would stop and just write a complain the same way I have to every time I have to listen to you.

Now I don't know if thats the case in this situation, but its the only type of 'meanness' I can't stand myself.

That said, Byn is hit and miss, to be honest most clans are some of the time. However, the byn tends to attract both good and bad aspects of verteran players. Its more of a revolving door. My first character joined the byn and it involved me stuck at an empty compound and eventually killed because I wandered out one day. Anyways, I didn't really like the game, but gave it one more shot, and kurac (the old kurac) wow, really opened my eyes to some awesome roleplayers.

Try Salarr or kadius either is often a good learning experience, doubly so if they have a couple hunters already in them (that aren't anti-social asshole, you do get those too in there).

[Rhei]

Im a little worried that so many replies to this port have "kill them all" suggestions. Kind of makes it sound like this is some kind of a PK mud. It's not. 

But it is supposed to be about well, you know... murder, corruption, betrayal.

To the point, though, there are many other ways a player could handle their character being tormented. Killing might just happen to be one of the most obvious ones.

[Gilgamesh]

I know the feeling. It's hard to get used to. And really, the Byn is the worst when you think of mean-spirited PCs. Not a bad thing, they're just all salty as hell. Just remember it isn't personal at all. What I did when I first played was join House Kurac. It's a lot like the Byn experience-wise and it tends to be a lot easier going. Less humiliation (like cleaning the latrines, sergeants calling you a piece of shit, etc.). I feel like House Kurac is a lot better for new players to get used to the game than the Byn. The Byn is really hard going (as it should be, being a mercenary company). House Kurac is also a good way to learn the geography of Zalanthas as well as the culture. And plus, House Kurac is A LOT of fun, in my experience. Play a few PCs and you'll get used to the grittiness of the game. Overall, PCs in the cities (Allanak, especially) are full of jaded hard-asses.

[Dar]

Hrm. This player hasnt logged in onto GDB since the day he posted this. Unfortunate. I blame Elves.

[WarriorPoet]

My characters are always rude, condescending and, if in a position of authority, tyrannical. But I also take great leaps to not single out newer PLAYERS for torment or ridicule. A character is fair game. Harass them mercilessly, but as a playerbase we should all make allowances for players that are lost and trying to learn. If this guy honestly thought they were abusing him just because he was a new player, he should have gone to Staff.

Hope he gives it another shot.

[dravage]

I rarely chime in on the public side of the GDB, but it saddened me reading this (unfortunately a little later than I would've liked to) and I certainly hope said player does return for another shot at the game, Byn or otherwise.

Most of what needs to be said has been said by wiser and more expert players than myself, but I would like to say that I am a firm believer that the Byn is a great place for new people to start.

We have worked very hard to make it a great starting point for new players and yet remain an exciting and adventurous environment for old players too (I hope). Being only 5 months into my time here at ARM, I'm grateful that players in the Byn took the time out of their day to help me ease into the game. I'm now in a position to do that for others, and I damn well make sure we (collectively as a clan) try to welcome folks who are obviously new, lost, and confused.

Anyway, to those reading who still haven't tried the Byn, or new folks who stop by that might still want to, please do come and give it a try and experience it for yourself!

[Kankman]

Having recently returned to the game I have to say that I found a certain incarnation of T'zai Byn characters utterly intolerable. I think most've them have cleared out, but it's possible the players themselves reincarnated and made PCs with similar attitudes.

It was a seriously toxic place to be. For the first time ever, I actually considered putting in a complaint to the staff.

The intense sexual nature of the banter was really, really, rapey, and just plain gross.

If I had been a new player, I would've left and never came back.

We should all keep in mind while deviously tormenting and backstabbing, that murder, corruption, and betrayal are super fun. Vulgar sexual violence, not so much.

Not sure the nature of the torment inflicted upon this new player, but if it was more the latter than the former, that might have something to do with it.

[SuchDragonWow]

lol wut.  I must've missed this stint.  "The intense sexual nature of the banter was really, really, rapey, and just plain gross."  Lmfao, get out of town, I call shenanigans.

[Kankman]

lol wut.  I must've missed this stint.  "The intense sexual nature of the banter was really, really, rapey, and just plain gross."  Lmfao, get out of town, I call shenanigans.

I was pretty surprised myself, and in the end didn't make the complaint because I thought maybe I'm just getting old.

But seriously, I think I started playing around '99 or something, and never felt more repulsed from a group of PCs as I did in that week or so.


EDIT: This is just to say, that it's no surprise some people get turned off of Armageddon. We can be a vile bunch. All of us revel in it, to one degree or another, but sometimes it goes too far for some people, and off they fuck.

[SuchDragonWow]

I played a sarge in the Byn for about a year a while back and I saw all kinds of crazy stuff, some OOC stuff, some people who were clearly off their meds IRL, but I never felt like I needed to point on the doll where the bad words touched me.  I'm guessing it was pretty over the top.

[Reiloth]

Keep in mind a 'player complaint' isn't necessarily to get someone in trouble. It can be to offer constructive feedback on what you view OOCly to be inappropriate. Bordering on 'rapey' with sexual banter can be a grey area that goes against the rules -- It isn't an attempt to get them in trouble, but set them on the right path. I think Staff has done a pretty good job of that in recent memory, esp. with the request tool accountability. Back in the day, good luck with the emails.

[Desertman]

Yeah, if you felt they were violating some rule you should have reported them.

Based on what you have said though, they weren't.

It sounds like they were playing extremely vulgar and terrible people who get paid to murder other people in the name of money who were actively making an effort to express just how morally bankrupt they were.

That's not for everyone.

The Atrium is a good alternative for the opposite end of the spectrum.

[Delirium]

Having genderbended and seen for myself how the males in armageddon talk about female characters when they think no girls are around...

Hoo BOY.

I can easily see how a new player - especially someone less familiar with the intensity of truly roleplay-focused muds - could be driven away.

Regardless of what you think of the topic itself, it's worth keeping in mind that "harsh" should not come at the expense of everyone else's OOC comfort levels.

[Reiloth]

Regardless of what you think of the topic itself, it's worth keeping in mind that "harsh" should not come at the expense of everyone else's OOC comfort levels.

This I agree with 100%, and why I think the Player Complaint tool is useful in this regard. If you think someone is doing this, on purpose at that, you can file a complaint to have Staff take a look into it. It will at the very least just put it/them/the situation on their radar to monitor. I've rarely had more than an acknowledgement for my player complaint -- "Thanks for putting this in, we'll look into it." I've never had a 'Yeah you're right, that guy was mean, we're gonna git him." Staff's been very even-handed from what i've experienced personally. They look into it, see what's what, and act on it or don't, and they don't let you know after the fact 'We dealt with Soandso'.

I suppose this is why I don't feel it's a bad thing to file a player complaint for something like this. Is it against the rules? Probably not, but sexual RP that borders on rapey is more of a grey area. Letting someone know (who maybe isn't aware of it, either being a new player, or just unaware) isn't a bad thing in my book. I don't think people should file player complaints willy nilly, that's not good, but if you've got a feeling you should let Staff know about something, either do it in your Character Reports or file a complaint I think.

[Desertman]

Having genderbended and seen for myself how the males in armageddon talk about female characters when they think no girls are around...

Hoo BOY.

I can easily see how a new player - especially someone less familiar with the intensity of truly roleplay-focused muds - could be driven away.

Regardless of what you think of the topic itself, it's worth keeping in mind that "harsh" should not come at the expense of everyone else's OOC comfort levels.

Eh, so long as I'm playing within the rules of the game I am working under the assumption they have also read the rules of the game and understand what to expect.

If they have a personal issue they should submit a report against me and see how that works for them.

Otherwise, adult game, adult themes, extremely rough situations usually involving extremely rough and terrible people in the extreme.



With that being said, the only notes I've ever gotten were specifically stating exactly how considerate I am of other players...many times over.

I play some of the worst, horrible, nasty, and vulgar PC's imaginable at times.

Not arguing for making people uncomfortable. I'm just saying:

If they aren't breaking the rules it is not their responsibility to change themselves for your feelings. It is your responsibility to report them and have a staffer either rebuke them to solve the problem if there is one, or possibly help you understand your situation is in fact that....your situation.

Then again I'm not easily offended by very much in the game, so, I'm willing to admit I'm voicing an opinion completely from one side of the trench.

[Barsook]

I'm wondering if we should write a guide on what characters and concepts are prefect for newbies for Allanak.  This includes combat-types and non-combat-types.  I feel like we have a lot of (good) information scattered around here and it should be in one place here and on the main site.

[th3kaiser]

Uhm, yeah. Why should I worry about people's OOC comfort levels if I'm following the rules? This isn't that game and I wouldn't be playing it if it was.

[Lizzie]

Having genderbended and seen for myself how the males in armageddon talk about female characters when they think no girls are around...

Hoo BOY.

I can easily see how a new player - especially someone less familiar with the intensity of truly roleplay-focused muds - could be driven away.

Regardless of what you think of the topic itself, it's worth keeping in mind that "harsh" should not come at the expense of everyone else's OOC comfort levels.

Eh, so long as I'm playing within the rules of the game I am working under the assumption they have also read the rules of the game and understand what to expect.

If they have a personal issue they should submit a report against me and see how that works for them.

Otherwise, adult game, adult themes, extremely rough situations usually involving extremely rough and terrible people in the extreme.



With that being said, the only notes I've ever gotten were specifically stating exactly how considerate I am of other players...many times over.

I play some of the worst, horrible, nasty, and vulgar PC's imaginable at times.

Not arguing for making people uncomfortable. I'm just saying:

If they aren't breaking the rules it is not their responsibility to change themselves for your feelings. It is your responsibility to report them and have a staffer either rebuke them to solve the problem if there is one, or possibly help you understand your situation is in fact that....your situation.

Then again I'm not easily offended by very much in the game, so, I'm willing to admit I'm voicing an opinion completely from one side of the trench.

Problem is - when you do something that's OOCly uncomfortable to me, most of the times I can just shrug it off. But if you're in my clan, and my character has to deal with you every RL day, and he's my character's boss, so I can't just tell him to fuck off ICly - it makes me want to not log in. It's not that I have a thin skin. It's just that you can only stretch it so far before it's time to say "enough."

[th3kaiser]

This is why we have player complaints. Staff are great at addressing these sorts of issues. Chances are if you tell them of your concern, they'll have a chitchat with the person and try to work something out. Even if that something is a transfer for you.

[Desertman]

Having genderbended and seen for myself how the males in armageddon talk about female characters when they think no girls are around...

Hoo BOY.

I can easily see how a new player - especially someone less familiar with the intensity of truly roleplay-focused muds - could be driven away.

Regardless of what you think of the topic itself, it's worth keeping in mind that "harsh" should not come at the expense of everyone else's OOC comfort levels.

Eh, so long as I'm playing within the rules of the game I am working under the assumption they have also read the rules of the game and understand what to expect.

If they have a personal issue they should submit a report against me and see how that works for them.

Otherwise, adult game, adult themes, extremely rough situations usually involving extremely rough and terrible people in the extreme.



With that being said, the only notes I've ever gotten were specifically stating exactly how considerate I am of other players...many times over.

I play some of the worst, horrible, nasty, and vulgar PC's imaginable at times.

Not arguing for making people uncomfortable. I'm just saying:

If they aren't breaking the rules it is not their responsibility to change themselves for your feelings. It is your responsibility to report them and have a staffer either rebuke them to solve the problem if there is one, or possibly help you understand your situation is in fact that....your situation.

Then again I'm not easily offended by very much in the game, so, I'm willing to admit I'm voicing an opinion completely from one side of the trench.

Problem is - when you do something that's OOCly uncomfortable to me, most of the times I can just shrug it off. But if you're in my clan, and my character has to deal with you every RL day, and he's my character's boss, so I can't just tell him to fuck off ICly - it makes me want to not log in. It's not that I have a thin skin. It's just that you can only stretch it so far before it's time to say "enough."

Submit a complaint, find a new clan, or store or any combination of that you need in order to satisfy your personal needs.

Some people will just not play the game if other people don't play it how they feel they should play it, and that's unfortunate, but a reality that will never change.

[Majikal]

from Help rules

3. Sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being extremely
    mean to others that your character may meet, be it cheating, stealing,
    killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of.  The sole
    exception to this is termed 'the rule of consent', and is outlined
    both in "help consent" and in point 6, below.

This thread was about a newer player joining a mercenary group and having troubles adjusting to the mean nature of the pc's present. Lots of help/advice was offered but it looks like the player may have moved on sadly. I remember as a new player I took every offense to my pc to heart, most of my early pc's were literally just me + sdesc/mdesc rather than separate entities I was bringing to life. It can be difficult, even for vet players, to separate the ic abuse from the ooc feelings about it. Funny enough, I now prefer playing the kicked dog instead of the badass. How things have changed.

When in the company of new players, 9 times out of 10 I see players bend the reactions of their pc's to accommodate the player of the new pc oocly or simply ooc to help the new player along, referencing documentation/world/rules. Players are helpful. I've witnessed a fresh tuluki pc log into the gaj and with their first action, spit on a pc templar. They survived, they were brutalized in a cell of course, but it was clear the Templar wanted to help a pc understand some things about the game world and give the player a push in the right direction.

[Riev]

Based on some things players have said in game, and the supposed atmosphere they were trying to create, I've sent in complaints. Its usually a "This guy wants to be a mute but does <x> that a mute wouldn't be able to do" or "This guy is on a new account, with a 3line main description, and he's telling me all sorts of information about how to play the game like a vet".

On topic: I wasn't around for these supposed "Byn is too gross and nasty" times that the OP came across. What I did notice, of that character, is that while around he would not know the schedule and mercenary would say "You should know it by now, what are you stupid?" and then follow it up with "Its Nekrete. Go shovel the shitter".

Its possible there were things that went unnoticed. Its possible the player felt even this level of treatment felt like he was being OOCly shamed. I don't want to be 'that' person, but the few interactions my character had with the OPs, nothing seemed out of sorts. Certainly not enough to warrant 3 pages on "are we TOO gritty".

[Armaddict]

Seriously?

We've gotten to the point that me saying rough, coarse shit in this game that makes someone else uncomfortable OOC'ly is complaint worthy?

Jesus christ.  That's not even being newbie friendly.  That's like trying to bring this whole OOC movement that no one should ever be offended into the world of Armageddon.  Just like in real life, people are going to say shit that might offend you.  I suggest you get thicker skin, or you're going to be engaged in pointless battles over everyone's speech patterns.  It's just as pointless in game as it is in real life.  You're certainly free to be offended, but being offended is an entirely relative state of mind; You can't pin rules on that.  You can't make laws on that.  You can't enforce that.  Or else I'll start telling you a lot of ridiculous shit that other players do and we'll storm the staff with a bunch of complaints of 'he hurt my feelings' and 'I think this topic of conversation was inappropriate because it made me feel this way'.

Be offended and move on.

On to an actual thing to be taken seriously:
This is actually a PK mud.  Completely open PK.  But it's centered around roleplay instead of competition.  Trying to spread the impression that the mud is somehow -anti- pk is actually more harmful than the inverse.  Never...-ever- forget that fellow players may be looking to kill you, or every time it will feel like some giant injustice.  If you remember that it is a game rife with danger from every direction, including fellow players, then you can try to prep for it, and when it happens it's an 'oh no, he got me!' instead of 'What the fuck?!  THAT SON OF A BITCH!'

[Kankman]

Seriously?

We've gotten to the point that me saying rough, coarse shit in this game that makes someone else uncomfortable OOC'ly is complaint worthy?

Jesus christ.  That's not even being newbie friendly.  That's like trying to bring this whole OOC movement that no one should ever be offended into the world of Armageddon.  Just like in real life, people are going to say shit that might offend you.  I suggest you get thicker skin, or you're going to be engaged in pointless battles over everyone's speech patterns.  It's just as pointless in game as it is in real life.  You're certainly free to be offended, but being offended is an entirely relative state of mind; You can't pin rules on that.  You can't make laws on that.  You can't enforce that.  Or else I'll start telling you a lot of ridiculous shit that other players do and we'll storm the staff with a bunch of complaints of 'he hurt my feelings' and 'I think this topic of conversation was inappropriate because it made me feel this way'.

Be offended and move on.

On to an actual thing to be taken seriously:
This is actually a PK mud.  Completely open PK.  But it's centered around roleplay instead of competition.  Trying to spread the impression that the mud is somehow -anti- pk is actually more harmful than the inverse.  Never...-ever- forget that fellow players may be looking to kill you, or every time it will feel like some giant injustice.  If you remember that it is a game rife with danger from every direction, including fellow players, then you can try to prep for it, and when it happens it's an 'oh no, he got me!' instead of 'What the fuck?!  THAT SON OF A BITCH!'

It's okay Armaddict, you can simmer down. I think everyone where agrees offence is part of the beauty of the game we play.

The point I raised is that what I had seen in the Byn for a brief period of time, although repeated over a few RL days, was not something I'd experienced in ~16-18 years (really bad memory on when exactly I started playing).

The consent rule is there for a reason, and consistent ass-rape/sexual-violence commentary brushes up against that line that people need to ask for consent for, and for a reason.

I'm not sure how many people play Armageddon to hear about cocks getting shoved down their throats, or their asses being fucked without so much as spitting on it.

I posted my original comments in this thread to point out that as a player-base we should remain aware that there is a line, and sexuality is in fact that line. I wasn't around for Ronin's experiences, so I have no idea what the actual issue for that player was, but I do know that if I was a new player and one of my only experiences in the game were the ones that involved a bunch of immature rapey crap, I probably wouldn't have continued playing.

[BadSkeelz]

There is such a thing as just shitty players. Sometimes they get concentrated or follow each other around.

[Reiloth]

There is such a thing as just shitty players. Sometimes they get concentrated or follow each other around.

Mostly this, for sure.

[Talia]

The consent rule is there for a reason, and consistent ass-rape/sexual-violence commentary brushes up against that line that people need to ask for consent for, and for a reason.

I'm not sure how many people play Armageddon to hear about cocks getting shoved down their throats, or their asses being fucked without so much as spitting on it.

I posted my original comments in this thread to point out that as a player-base we should remain aware that there is a line, and sexuality is in fact that line. I wasn't around for Ronin's experiences, so I have no idea what the actual issue for that player was, but I do know that if I was a new player and one of my only experiences in the game were the ones that involved a bunch of immature rapey crap, I probably wouldn't have continued playing.

These are good points and should be considered. Staff does not want to see rape-talk in game either. We are pretty serious about the no-rape plot policy.

Players are strongly encouraged to put in complaints when this kind of thing happens. We can and do investigate and follow up. We can't/won't tell you what we DO about your complaint, but I 100% promise you that if something needs to be done, we will.

The sexual violence line is not one where staff will just chalk it up to, "eh, players are mean sometimes." Nope. Nor do we take kindly to violations of the consent rules.

[SuchDragonWow]

Regardless of whether that's true, it doesn't help anything to vague it on the GDB.  And yeah, what Kankman describes, I would probably just ignore, but it does approach the line.  I would ask consent if it was that graphic.  Btw, I'm assuming this is someone talking about it.  Emoting it crosses the line, for certain.   See: Help rape.

Eta: what talia said

[BadSkeelz]

Regardless of whether that's true, it doesn't help anything to vague it on the GDB.  And yeah, what Kankman describes, I would probably just ignore, but it does approach the line.  I would ask consent if it was that graphic.  Btw, I'm assuming this is someone talking about it.  Emoting it crosses the line, for certain.   See: Help rape.

I think we can all agree that if we see questionable or outright illegal behavior that cannot (or should) be ignored or brushed aside, the best way to deal with it is filing a Player Complaint. Everyone knows what they do and do not like to see in play, but Staff are the arbiters of the rules.

It's also more than OK too OOC and say you're not comfortable with a scene. Responsible players will understand and adjust.

[Armaddict]

I'm not sure how many people play Armageddon to hear about cocks getting shoved down their throats, or their asses being fucked without so much as spitting on it.

This is literally more I've heard about such than in years of play.  So apparently, either there's one or two really bad apples, or there's some serious exaggeration going on.

However, my reference was less about 'rape talk' (because as Talia said, there is no grey area there, that's been pretty clearly defined), and more about cocks and asses altogether.  The impression I get from this thread is not 'rape talk' (until these last couple posts), it's crudeness and roughness.

The only grey area I see here is when a rough and tumble mercenary screams 'Let's go skullfuck these bitches and take their women!' in which case if that's what's making you uncomfortable, I stand by my original position; sometimes, rough and disgusting shit will be said.  But it's hardly unreal.  It's hardly something where we need to get overly sensitive.  Or if you choose to be sensitive over it, it's hardly something worthy of a complaint.

If there were an elven character who singled out a human pc and started threatening to drag her out into an alley and force himself and make half-elves, though, sure.  That could cross the line.  Because it's direct.  It's imminent.  It's intent.  It's not being used as a figure of speech or environment, and that would clearly go against the ruling.

It's also more than OK too OOC and say you're not comfortable with a scene. Responsible players will understand and adjust.

Also incredibly valid and suitable.

Edit:  In essence, if you're trying to say that the drill sergeant from Full Metal Jacket offends you when it's in game, I don't know what to say.  But when it's someone very clearly making that threat of sexual violence, then that is, of course, clearly under the rules.  Saying lewd things about rough sex does not equal sexual aggression, it's just being a crude, shocking, perhaps disgusting motherfucker.  But...as in the last line...if you think someone's toeing that line, ooc about it, and if it -persists-...that's where I'd make a complaint, so that staff could decide whether or not it's a legitimate complaint or not.

[Desertman]

Eh, it used to be commonplace for Byn Sergeants to yell at Runners, "Get your ass in gear or I swear to Tek I will skull fuck you into next week Runner!".

Nobody except silly people who WANTED TO BE OFFENDED found that offensive because nobody with any common sense actually believed it was a literal threat.

(Which is probably more than a few people, because this is the internet.)



I'm trying to think of a single time in game where I've ever seen anyone threaten someone with sexual violence where I took it seriously and not just as a metaphor for, "Fuck you up.", and I can't think of a single one. (I'm sure it has happened, I'm just saying, in the thousands of situations I've probably been a part of, none of them ever seemed literal to me.)

But it is better to just play it safe these days.

There was a time I would threaten to skull fuck a Runner. Now I will just threaten to skull fuck their corpse. Necrophilia is in fact not against the rules, and not rape.

[Talia]

I'm trying to think of a single time in game where I've ever seen anyone threaten someone with sexual violence where I took it seriously and not just as a metaphor for, "Fuck you up.", and I can't think of a single one. (I'm sure it has happened, I'm just saying, in the thousands of situations I've probably been a part of, none of them ever seemed literal to me.

To point out the obvious: You don't play female PCs and so it's statistically less likely to happen directly to you and maybe also less likely to happen around you, if you're hanging out with mostly other dude PCs.

From staff side, I've heard about and (disturbingly) witnessed sexual violence roleplay happening to both female and male PCs.

I think it's much better to just threaten other PCs with maiming and/or death and leave the sexual violence threats out.

And again, as previously noted, graphic roleplay of any nature does require consent. Depending on how explicit it is, that could include "just" talking. Why not be safe, and request consent? It's no big deal.

I know all you guys know this stuff and I'm preaching to the choir. We really don't have many players who ever knowingly/intentionally violate the rules.

[BadSkeelz]

I used to threaten to geld and/or sew up my soldiers in the AoD because their high school sex antics were threatening Unit cohesion and readiness. At the time I meant it, too. I never knew if I'd actually go through with it, because I felt I was entering the grey area.

Incidentally, all those soldiers wound up killing each other over their relationships with the last of them fed to my beetle. After getting consent from all present of course (including the beetle). Fun times

[Desertman]

I'm trying to think of a single time in game where I've ever seen anyone threaten someone with sexual violence where I took it seriously and not just as a metaphor for, "Fuck you up.", and I can't think of a single one. (I'm sure it has happened, I'm just saying, in the thousands of situations I've probably been a part of, none of them ever seemed literal to me.

To point out the obvious: You don't play female PCs and so it's statistically less likely to happen directly to you and maybe also less likely to happen around you, if you're hanging out with mostly other dude PCs.

From staff side, I've heard about and (disturbingly) witnessed sexual violence roleplay happening to both female and male PCs.

I think it's much better to just threaten other PCs with maiming and/or death and leave the sexual violence threats out.

And again, as previously noted, graphic roleplay of any nature does require consent. Depending on how explicit it is, that could include "just" talking. Why not be safe, and request consent? It's no big deal.

I know all you guys know this stuff and I'm preaching to the choir. We really don't have many players who ever knowingly/intentionally violate the rules.

Yeah I'm sure you've seen me ask for consent for things that arguably don't even need consent.....I'm one of those people.

As much as people like to say, "Just play it safe.".

I'm still in the camp of, "Don't be a whiny crybaby over a videogame like a little bitch.".

I'm not going to intentionally make you cry, but I'm not going to give you enough rope to complain about everything, because you will....because internet.

[Jingo]

Sexual harassment is no big deal. The men and women who find it uncomfortable are whiny baby-people that don't understand we're playing a grit-ridden gritty game of grittageddon.

*Does a Jihelu and kills himself*

[Armaddict]

Sexual harassment is no big deal. The men and women who find it uncomfortable are whiny baby-people that don't understand we're playing a grit-ridden gritty game of grittageddon.

*Does a Jihelu and kills himself*

If that's the context you get out of it, you need help with reading comprehension.

But I think you're smarter than that, and so I just think you're just being intentionally obtuse in differentiation.

[Desertman]

Sexual harassment is no big deal. The men and women who find it uncomfortable are whiny baby-people that don't understand we're playing a grit-ridden gritty game of grittageddon.

*Does a Jihelu and kills himself*

If that's the context you get out of it, you need help with reading comprehension.

But I think you're smarter than that, and so I just think you're just being intentionally obtuse in differentiation.

Don't feed him.

[Jingo]

I think most people just don't know what sexual harassment is. Or understand how damaging it can be.

[Armaddict]

You're right.  I'm a total ignoramus.  Or I just cleverly camouflage myself in real life so that I can show my true colors in my video game that purposely ditched real life morality.

Thumbs up for your approach.

[Desertman]

Not related to the above posts, but, I absolutely blame Full Metal Jacket for a lot of the Byn Sergeants I have seen....and I say that with as much praise as humanly possible. 

[WanderingOoze]

I Did in fact play with Op's Pc, and I'm pretty sure he just took things the wrong way. Or, the Right way..but too personally.

No one threatened to rape anyone. And being one of the people who nearly killed him in the sparring he alluded to, My Mercy -was- on
as it almost always is unless purposefully trying to do Harm. It was a total accident. Being buff asf+good neckhits sometimes can nearly
kill a PC even with mercy on, as I'm sure many of you probably already know. 

I just thought I'd chime in because of all the speculation about..sexual harassment, to say, no one was going to violate him anally. Nor, threatened to do
so. At least not from what I witnessed.  This thread took an odd turn in the middle there.

[MeTekillot]

Have you tried gitting gud?

[yousuff]

Hey guys what's happening in h-



Can we keep the thread on topic? Like non sexual stuff? Cos none of that is relevant, and the rules are fairly clear on what's ok and what's not

[Talia]

Incidentally, all those soldiers wound up killing each other over their relationships with the last of them fed to my beetle. After getting consent from all present of course (including the beetle). Fun times

YOU ARE WELCOME

[Jihelu]

My name was mentioned so I have to post again, I'm obligated.
And I only suicided that one character that one time.
Not the other one.

I don't think I've directly seen someone sexually harass/threaten rape before ig but I've had friends post a log or two, no meta I swear, that someone was basically THREATENING or saying 'They raped me' and that didn't sit right with me AT ALL.
Not for the morale aspect but for the huge 'You are breaking the rules so hard' aspect.
I usually just say send in a player complaint. That kinda stuff is not okay.


Though I'm not sure how this rape conversation came up, like Yousuff said.

The war beetle says in ooc: "Consent"
This was just generally shittery and meanness, as the problem.
I noticed people starting shit with Ronin but the major problem with it was his replies...didn't make sense. It was hard to understand what he was saying.
I also noticed he was using ooc to say things that should have been discussed ic, if that isn't meta enough, and people who saw it might have cringed as hard as I did when it happened.

It might be the playing from phone thing but you should use a pc if you have one or type out things more clearly so people can understand you better.

[BadSkeelz]

Some newbs have it rough. The most we as a playerbase can do is be patient, coach them in proper OOC usage (i.e. direct them to helper chat, ask they keep in-game chatter to a minimum), stick to documentation so as not to sacrifice the essence of the setting, and hope they develop.

Sometimes they won't. Armageddon isn't a game for everyone.

[Raptor_Dan]

Some newbs have it rough. The most we as a playerbase can do is be patient, coach them in proper OOC usage (i.e. direct them to helper chat, ask they keep in-game chatter to a minimum), stick to documentation so as not to sacrifice the essence of the setting, and hope they develop.

Sometimes they won't. Armageddon isn't a game for everyone.

I think this about sums it all up.

[Dar]

I cant believe this thread turned into rape discussion, and then that discussion started to get some forms of political correctness hues. "you've never been sexually harassed, you dont know how it is, so best play on the side of caution".   I've probably never participated in such scenes and probably never will. But I really really reaaaally dislike the "best play safe" concept. It is not what I'd like to govern my character's actions. My character personality, background, and his current situations governs his actions. And those three are governed by the game's theme, lore, and the set rules of the game.   "Best play safe" simply does not fit in any of that in any way.

[Armaddict]

I apologize for my contribution to the derail.  While I made it clear that I thought it was weird it was being discussed, I also made sure to establish clearly that it wasn't included under my umbrella of 'keep things harsh and gritty'.  It kind of exploded out of a casual mention that such talk happened...and I think it's one of those topics that people are really eager to distance their position from so it made a lot of people vocal.  Sorry!

However, to the original position I had...no, I don't think you should be running around trying to shock the shit out of everyone constantly.  But no, I don't think you should get offended by a notably dark or uncaring character either.  Like D-man said...I really do think a lot of the drill sergeant from Full Metal Jacket, and if those kind of things offend you, I'm sorry.  But I like that there.  It makes it feel more real to me, that someone can be -that big- of an asshole to try and toughen you up.  Not all of them will, but some will.

I just don't think it requires staff attention for you to ooc to someone to say they're being a little extreme for you as far as crudeness/grittiness/whatever.  I also don't see people going out of their way to do this to newbies...which was more common earlier on (people stealing newbie coins was a thing).  So agreed with Badskeelz.  Don't go out of your way to ostracize or 'initiate' a newbie to the ways of Armageddon, but as a community we do have to kind of stick with the idea that this game is pretty hardcore and not for everyone, particularly not someone looking for a light-hearted, casual roleplaying experience.

[Dunetrade55]

And this isn't even the guy we <censored> in the <censored> (which, also wasn't sexual in the slighted, despite the censoring making it look that way). Jeez, c'mon man. Give it another shot sometime when you've cooled off.

And as far as the rape derail, it's ok to have rape in your background, most half-elves probably will somewhere. I think asking for consent requires things to go into exacting detail (barring going into detail on rape in your backstory, which I don't think is allowed), not simply a mentioning of skull fucking corpses or rough sex, a joke, or some form of innuendo. If that's the case lets just get it over with and make resurrection a thing, tone everything down by the rules to PG-13?

I'm starting to think the arguments of the "slippery slope" crowd valid in the thread discussing rape. Now, if I'm going to discuss extremely graphic details, or worse, emote them, you can damn sure bet I'll be asking for consent. When it moves past an R-rating is where I draw the line. Rape is clearly off the table and you should never threaten someone with it, whether to their face or behind their back. The Zalanthan definition of rape, to my understanding, is not quite the same as RL rape, as in, your boss making it clear your promotion or hiring comes with some obligated acts is not rape, nor is killing a player character then having your way with their corpse, as now it's an item and not a PC. I think it IS against the rules to make it a "Do this or I'll kill you" situation, so avoid doing that at all costs.

I get that some of you are offended. Zalanthas is a world that's SUPPOSED to offend you in many, many ways. OOC perspectives regarding sexuality derived from modern culture, this does not fit the theme. You seem to be saying death and violence are somehow ok, although some of us find these things shocking and repugnant, they run RAMPANT in game. That's the setting you opted to play in. It offends me, sickens me to my core, but you know what? It's part of the experience, and I'd not trade that simply because it makes me feel ill and icky inside. I've had plenty of loved ones die and it's never easy, and the shock keeps coming back when it happens in game. This game is supposed to shock, terrify, sadden, and evoke the full range of negative emotions, as well as positive ones if you're lucky. If it's not, someone's not doing their job.

As a player, a certain level of sick masochism is a requirement. It's evident in the code, evident in the setting, evident everywhere, really. I mean, it's a game you have to do a bunch of reading before ever getting into even. From my first character onward I've been absolutely bombarded with sick, twisted stuff from all angles, of all kinds. I never felt it out of place (barring a few rare exceptions, where I've had to ponder and accept, yeah, that was probably warranted), and indeed, stepped in EXPECTING it, because I read up on, some of the rules, and caught up on the rest as I played. For me, the game has always been rushing from place to place, looking for a safe place to hide from inevitable and certain doom for my PC and everyone they care about, and manuevering to stall it as long as possible. That's what I signed up for. Players do it to me, staff does it to me, I do it to others, and everyone has a good old time. Conflict abounds! Swathes, nay, hordes of far better people than my PC are cut down rapidly, as I struggle to keep it together and push my survival instincts as far as they can go.

Are we all playing the same game? I'm just curious. Apologies for the rant.

tl;dr all my PCs are assholes out to destroy your asshole PCs that are trying to destroy mine for being an asshole, because you, are an asshole. Justice all around. It's like a post-apocolyptic horror movie that just keeps going and going, with magick, giant spiders, sorcerer kings, ginormous man-eating reptiles, elementals, and sex, because what would a horror movie be without rule number one? There's something in there to make ANYONE feel ill at ease and highly uncomfortable OOCly. The panic, terror, dread, and loathing are all supposed to be there, I assume.

EDIT: Edited to remove something I thought came off as needlessly snarky.

[Raptor_Dan]

Neat.

EDIT: Edited to remove three paragraphs of needless snark, a gif of Tommen jumping out a window, a rant about spiders and insects with ovipositors, and a comparison to the Enterprise.

[Pale Horse]

Are we all playing the same game? I'm just curious.

We're not.

We're all playing our own personalized view of the game.

When someone else's personal version of the game collides with ours through role-play/combat/uncomfortable scenes, we find out that the game isn't just about our personal idea of it.

Everyone, unless they are explicitly breaking the rules, is allowed to have and play to their vision of the game and mix their "chocolate" with my "vanilla."  Until it comes to a point where it's rule-breaking or an OOC attack, you will have to deal with said mixing.  Your fun is not of more value than someone else's.

If you do feel an interaction has broken a rule, submit a player complaint and let Staff make the call.  If it comes down that Staff's judgement is not what you wanted and this is unbearable to you, I would suggest taking a break, finding something else to do, learning to cope with the situation or, in the extreme, leaving the game.