Ideas for spice addiction code

[Lizzie]

From the other thread, so as not to continue the derail:

I've never had an addicted character so I can only speak from the point of view of an observer, and what I've heard IG and here on the GDB.

It seems as though addiction, when it hits, hits hard and is mostly unforgiving.

I don't know what it takes to get to that point, and I think the details are best left to find out IC. But if it's not already this way, what if instead of each toke/snort lasting the same length of time as each other one, let them increase duration.

So for instance - if you smoke a tube that has three "puffs" to it. The first puff might last 10 RL minutes. If you take a second puff before the first puff is *halfway* worn off - then your duration is now 20 minutes. If you take the third puff before your first puff's duration has expired (prior to 10 minutes after you start the first puff), then the duration is now 30 minutes. At the 30 minute mark (at that point), it'll begin to wear off, but take longer to wear off than if you had only taken the first puff and no others within that first 10-minute period.

Something like that, anyway. Stackable tokes. Just like in real life - the more you smoke in one "session" the higher you get, for a longer period of time, and the longer it takes for it to wear off.

But if you're addicted, the wear-off experience will actually be painful due to withdrawal. And no, it wouldn't wear off while you're logged out - because some people only have a limited amount of time to log in - that'd be a real joy-kill, to log in and immediately need to find a smoke, and have your entire log-in experience consist of nothing but looking for and smoking spice.

[Yam]

I don't even know how the current addiction code works despite having PCs that smoked tons of spice. I think it should be made more transparent. I doubt it is something that has been thoroughly tested or that more than a handful of PCs have encountered in natural play.

[bardlyone]

To leave all details as to any actual effect with what happens off, my assessment is:

The penalties on methelinoc seem mild and relatively short-lived.

The penalties on thodeliv are.... they will literally leave you completely unable to play your character for 3+days played worth of time, unless you're smoking. You just can't detox from it and play. At all. That I have seen. Which is great for Kurac in IC scenarios, because business. But on an OOC what is fun for a PLAYER level... is just godawful and I would wish it on no one.

It was the worst experience. I am almost terrified OOC of how unplayable it is to be addicted to it with a character. I cannot fathom how much worse it would have been to be addicted to thodeliv and live in Allanak.

[valeria]

The ease with which you can become addicted and the crazy levels to which is spirals so quickly into unplayable are kind of downers for me when I think about playing any kind of casual spice user.

I mean, it was a great ~1 month run with my spice addict character.  But I feel like there should be more arc than that.  I think having spice wear off while you're offline (like the drunk code does with alcohol) would go a long way toward how quickly addiction accumulates and ramps up.

[Jihelu]

I can confirm spice effects are weird and should go away with logged out time.

I used an item thats somewhat like spice, went offline for a day, and came back still under the effects and feeling awkward cause I was angry ic

[Lizzie]

Perhaps some kind of antidote, or even poison, could mitigate the withdrawal once you reach a certain level of addiction. Something like this:

Addiction levels are 1-10.
Between levels 1-5, nothing will reduce the addiction or withdrawal other than tapering off the spice or surviving/enduring the withdrawal.
Level 6-7: bimbal leaf will reduce the addiction/withdrawal level to 5.
Level 8-9: clove tea + bimbal leaf + bloodburn poison with no cure tablet will reduce the addiction/withdrawal level to 6.
Level 10: bloodburn poison + heramide will reduce the addiction/withdrawal level to 8.

Could make for some pretty neat physician functions - they could not only be cure-dispensers, but they could also create triage/treatment centers for the addicted, with caregivers to watch over them (for a fee) while they burn off and sleep through the worse of the withdrawal symptoms.

[bardlyone]

Perhaps some kind of antidote, or even poison, could mitigate the withdrawal once you reach a certain level of addiction. Something like this:

Addiction levels are 1-10.
Between levels 1-5, nothing will reduce the addiction or withdrawal other than tapering off the spice or surviving/enduring the withdrawal.
Level 6-7: bimbal leaf will reduce the addiction/withdrawal level to 5.
Level 8-9: clove tea + bimbal leaf + bloodburn poison with no cure tablet will reduce the addiction/withdrawal level to 6.
Level 10: bloodburn poison + heramide will reduce the addiction/withdrawal level to 8.

Could make for some pretty neat physician functions - they could not only be cure-dispensers, but they could also create triage/treatment centers for the addicted, with caregivers to watch over them (for a fee) while they burn off and sleep through the worse of the withdrawal symptoms.

Lizzie, as much as we were at odds in the changes thread, I really like this idea. Especially if the treatment varied by spice to be an herb with an opposite type effect to that sort of spice in basically the same way you can take things that will usually make your heart race to stave off going into cardiac arrest due to your heart slowing, with poisons IRL in some cases (like nightshade and I can't recall the other one).

That sounds awesome. +1

[Harmless]

Being addicted to spice should give super powers, maybe psionics. Done

[Jihelu]

Being addicted to spice should give super powers, maybe psionics. Done

I strangely agree and disagree.
I agree that spice should do something other than stats.
I don't think it should necessarily give psionics. Or maybe there should be spice only psionics that even psionicists don't get.

[Harmless]

That is the thing though. Spice feels so mundane as it is now. It makes you a bit stronger or wiser or faster or more energized. But why is it so illegal if this is all there is to it? Spice should have more mystery to it to justify its illegality. In Dune, spice was everything because the technology of warp drives relied on it. Currently spice overlaps with Magick but is far less potent. It has no unique qualities and it is not needed by anyone. There are tons of ways spice could be given more purpose which I leave up to staff.

[Miradus]

If spice would be boosted, then there should be a change to the way it's acquired in order to balance those "superpowers".

You certainly shouldn't be able to pick up the superspice from the spice den in Luir's or get it from your sifter 2 steps outside of Red Storm's south gate.

Foraged from somewhere a little more risky? That would make sense.

There are foraged plants that give spice benefits. Perhaps buff those up.

[Jihelu]

The spice plants either
1: Suck ass
Or 2:
All buff spice doesn't work good.
I'd like to see spice plants buffed up.

[nauta]

I'm for:

o Making spice effects wear off like drunkenness (after a pause after log off).

o Some sort of project to make the echoes from spice more like skellebaine's echoes.  (I'd want maybe a 'brief drugs' option, though.)  At least some spice have -very- minimal echoes.

o Fixing whatever debilitating stuff people are alluding to (although I've never had that problem with my PCs with moderate -- once a RL day? --- spice usage).  Love the idea of cures -- maybe made from bandagemaking/brew so that physicians get some RP in.

Re: the coded effects of spice, I'm on the fence.  Sure, let there be war spices that give coded effects, but in general spice strikes me as an opiate for the masses.  In this harsh desert world, something like spice to lift you up from all the harshness would be worth pursuing, even if not an addict.  Players still have their characters drink alcohol even though it has negative coded consequences because it's realistic for those characters to drink alcohol.  So too, I'd think, with spice, even though it is illegal.

Finally, re increasing spice usage:

o Clear a (soldier-less, mugger-less) path to the Mantis so that commoners not from the rinth can enjoy/deal/RP spice in a public location.  There's a few ways to do this:

(a) make a second (southern) entrance to the Mantis off Slaver's --- there are, after all, two bars in the Mantis itself, and a spice room.  There's also two other bars in the rinth where the hard-core rinthers can hang out in private.

(b) actually move the muggers deeper into the rinth so people can go up Hathor's to get there.

[Miradus]

It would be nice to see plants actually have more of an impact on game.

In a world where "magic" has been restricted, it would make sense that potions would have stepped up.

[Lizzie]

That is the thing though. Spice feels so mundane as it is now. It makes you a bit stronger or wiser or faster or more energized. But why is it so illegal if this is all there is to it? Spice should have more mystery to it to justify its illegality. In Dune, spice was everything because the technology of warp drives relied on it. Currently spice overlaps with Magick but is far less potent. It has no unique qualities and it is not needed by anyone. There are tons of ways spice could be given more purpose which I leave up to staff.

Because it's addictive, codedly.
Addictive substances = needing money to buy more
Needing money to buy more can lead to theft.
Needing money to buy more can ALSO lead to having less money to pay bribes to the templarate/arm.
Less money to pay bribes + theft = templarate sad.
Templarate sad = Tektolnes sad
Tektolnes sad = city buried under the salt flats.

Therefore:
Spice = illegal.

[Lizzie]

I'm for:

o Making spice effects wear off like drunkenness (after a pause after log off).

o Some sort of project to make the echoes from spice more like skellebaine's echoes.  (I'd want maybe a 'brief drugs' option, though.)  At least some spice have -very- minimal echoes.

o Fixing whatever debilitating stuff people are alluding to (although I've never had that problem with my PCs with moderate -- once a RL day? --- spice usage).  Love the idea of cures -- maybe made from bandagemaking/brew so that physicians get some RP in.

Re: the coded effects of spice, I'm on the fence.  Sure, let there be war spices that give coded effects, but in general spice strikes me as an opiate for the masses.  In this harsh desert world, something like spice to lift you up from all the harshness would be worth pursuing, even if not an addict.  Players still have their characters drink alcohol even though it has negative coded consequences because it's realistic for those characters to drink alcohol.  So too, I'd think, with spice, even though it is illegal.

Finally, re increasing spice usage:

o Clear a (soldier-less, mugger-less) path to the Mantis so that commoners not from the rinth can enjoy/deal/RP spice in a public location.  There's a few ways to do this:

(a) make a second (southern) entrance to the Mantis off Slaver's --- there are, after all, two bars in the Mantis itself, and a spice room.  There's also two other bars in the rinth where the hard-core rinthers can hang out in private.

(b) actually move the muggers deeper into the rinth so people can go up Hathor's to get there.

The problem with spice effects wearing off upon login is that addicted people would immediately require their next fix after login. It'd make the whole addiction aspect of spice unplayable. It's currently "only" difficult, but it's still playable.

[Miradus]

That is the thing though. Spice feels so mundane as it is now. It makes you a bit stronger or wiser or faster or more energized. But why is it so illegal if this is all there is to it? Spice should have more mystery to it to justify its illegality. In Dune, spice was everything because the technology of warp drives relied on it. Currently spice overlaps with Magick but is far less potent. It has no unique qualities and it is not needed by anyone. There are tons of ways spice could be given more purpose which I leave up to staff.

Because it's addictive, codedly.
Addictive substances = needing money to buy more
Needing money to buy more can lead to theft.
Needing money to buy more can ALSO lead to having less money to pay bribes to the templarate/arm.
Less money to pay bribes + theft = templarate sad.
Templarate sad = Tektolnes sad
Tektolnes sad = city buried under the salt flats.

Therefore:
Spice = illegal.

I see spice being illegal for the same reason that marijuana is illegal in the United States.

There's money to be made by something illegal.

Tektolnes himself probably couldn't give a shit about spice. But some templar with the right connections to people willing to bring in spice looked and realized they could make a lot of profit if nobody else could just walk through the gate with it. So he whispered in Tek's ear and Tek said, "What do I care? Do what you want?"

Templar then said, "Do you hear the word of our lord? Spice is illegal now!"

The profits must flow.

[bardlyone]

I'm for:

o Making spice effects wear off like drunkenness (after a pause after log off).

o Some sort of project to make the echoes from spice more like skellebaine's echoes.  (I'd want maybe a 'brief drugs' option, though.)  At least some spice have -very- minimal echoes.

o Fixing whatever debilitating stuff people are alluding to (although I've never had that problem with my PCs with moderate -- once a RL day? --- spice usage).  Love the idea of cures -- maybe made from bandagemaking/brew so that physicians get some RP in.

Re: the coded effects of spice, I'm on the fence.  Sure, let there be war spices that give coded effects, but in general spice strikes me as an opiate for the masses.  In this harsh desert world, something like spice to lift you up from all the harshness would be worth pursuing, even if not an addict.  Players still have their characters drink alcohol even though it has negative coded consequences because it's realistic for those characters to drink alcohol.  So too, I'd think, with spice, even though it is illegal.

Finally, re increasing spice usage:

o Clear a (soldier-less, mugger-less) path to the Mantis so that commoners not from the rinth can enjoy/deal/RP spice in a public location.  There's a few ways to do this:

(a) make a second (southern) entrance to the Mantis off Slaver's --- there are, after all, two bars in the Mantis itself, and a spice room.  There's also two other bars in the rinth where the hard-core rinthers can hang out in private.

(b) actually move the muggers deeper into the rinth so people can go up Hathor's to get there.

The problem with spice effects wearing off upon login is that addicted people would immediately require their next fix after login. It'd make the whole addiction aspect of spice unplayable. It's currently "only" difficult, but it's still playable.

Honestly? I think the benefits outweigh the negatives here. If you're codedly addicted to a spice it's going to wear off within an hour anyhow, so you're not putting it off through the entire login, you're putting it off a few IC hours or less than an OOC one at most, and if you look at the benefit, you might actually be able to get the hell over addiction to one specific spice that is so goddamn awful that it can make the game literally unplayable to go without if you accidentally hit that die roll that says 'boom, you're an addict, you're fucked now, buddy!'. Maybe if there was a MUCH smaller likelihood of addiction per use within period, or if something else was changed, as is, with 1 spice the damn effects of addiction are totally negligible, and with another they leave you literally unable to watch/scan/listen/psi/fight, or anything else that might require hp/mn/stm/stn for RL days played. I would much rather be able to get the hell over that than spend 100+ hours of time played dealing with withdraw. Sorry, but even IRL it only takes 28 days to detox from heroin, but IC it can take goddamn years to detox from some spice. No thank you. I admit I probably have had a different and much more severe experience with the spice addiction code than a lot of people, so my view may not be popular, but it is what it is.

[Dresan]

I don't think I have any problems with it being potentially addictive, however consider the political climate it should be at least more convinient to use. I wrote this in the other thread, its more RP related but this is what I would change. The short of it is make it more convinient to use by making the effects last longer, then I can see people ICly rationalizing using it for reasons other than recreation now and then.

For the record,  I don't think the consumption of spice has changed over the years. Sure, people did it more often in tuluk because it was easy but it was still in moderation. It was no different then people who drinking wine during special occasions or smoke weed once in a while when the fancy hits them. Also, I'm sure people visiting luirs also smoke spice now and then too, i know my characters do now and then as well. Kurac has always made it convenient any place that isn't allanak after all or if you are rich/influencial.

In allanak its harder for commoners to do because soldier/templar might kill you for it. If you have a good job in a CLAN, a job people should be dreaming of getting...are you really going to risk your job/life getting caught with spice?....sure why not, people go hunting when they are bored too despite the unknown dangers in the sands too.    As I've said before, at the moment in my opinion it is mostly a virtual vice which doesn't detract anything from the smuggling spice role.


I just think it would be nice if it was made more convenient for everyone to use more often without having to play a flavor role like a spice addict. And let me more specific here: Please make the effects last longer. At least a IC day if not TWO. Jack up the price if you have to, it doesn't matter.  Why? Suddenly instead of smoking spice to relax now and then, you can rationalize using it when you are going on a hard mission, when you are getting beat up in sparring, whenever you are going on a dangerous hunt.  It will make spice more reliable to use in the comfort of your own apartment before going out standing hanging out with your sergeant all day long. Since you'll know the buzz won't wear out until the day is over at least and you can get some privacy to do some more at least.

[Reiloth]

It's kind of weird to have two discussions of the same thing. Couldn't we merge?

[Lizzie]

Dresan it isn't "potentially" addictive. It's definitely addictive, currently. Not all spice users will become addicted, and there's definitely some kind of formula involved. I don't know, or care, what that formula is. But this thread is to address the addiction issue, not the usefulness of spice (or lack thereof).

It might be nice for some of the spice effects to last longer, but how will that help or hinder addicted spice users?

[Lizzie]

It's kind of weird to have two discussions of the same thing. Couldn't we merge?

There are three different threads going on that involve spice:

1) The discussion about the Dust Runner sponsored role opening, which derailed and started being about spice and spice addiction.
2) This thread, which is specifically about the spice addiction code here in the code subforum.
3) Tips on roleplaying spice usage, in the RP subforum.
All three are different topics, in different subfora of the GDB.

[Dresan]

You wouldn't need to smoke as much to get the same length of effect. This will help with spice addiction. Though arguable this would also make it more tempting to use more often which will probably create more addicts.

Its Win-Win!

That said,  I don't think it was ever meant to be complicated, like with everything else you just basically need to do it in moderation and give yourself some time between binges.  If you use it regularly, instead of recreationally as a once in a while kind of thing, you will eventually become addicted. How often is regularly? No idea.    

This is why I don't have a problem with addiction code, and instead would like to see spice become ever more tempting/convenient to use. Just make the rewards more tempting than the risks.

I agree with Reiloth, this idea thread started by lizzie should probably be merged with the others, but don't think its a big deal, more threads, more ideas, more goodness all around.

[Chettaman]

I want to speak generally about spice, because I don't know just how addictive all of these things are in the game world.

I would like if all spice types would addict people much more often.
And... depending on the endurance or whatever of the user, the withdrawals affect the user of a given spice accordingly. Be it reduced strength, health or stun - and the only way (one might think during this painful period of withdrawal) would be to smoke more. To end the shakes, the itching, the nervousness and such, doing terrible things to acquire their ''cure''.

But... I  don't actually know how addictive all of these things are.  I'm just saying that I wish they were more addictive codedly, but I mean... if it's just like cannabis then there's nearly no addiction if any and then the way it is makes sense. (still) I'd like to see it more addictive.

[Lizzie]

I want to speak generally about spice, because I don't know just how addictive all of these things are in the game world.

I would like if all spice types would addict people much more often.
And... depending on the endurance or whatever of the user, the withdrawals affect the user of a given spice accordingly. Be it reduced strength, health or stun - and the only way (one might think during this painful period of withdrawal) would be to smoke more. To end the shakes, the itching, the nervousness and such, doing terrible things to acquire their ''cure''.

But... I  don't actually know how addictive all of these things are.  I'm just saying that I wish they were more addictive codedly, but I mean... if it's just like cannabis then there's nearly no addiction if any and then the way it is makes sense. (still) I'd like to see it more addictive.

It's already addictive. If you have all your ducks in a row, you'll become codedly addicted to it with the effects you describe and more.