Re: Miradus' ATS about wisdom

[nauta]

From 'help wisdom':

   This attribute is the mental capacity of a character, being made up of
both his/her knowledge, intelligence, and ability to learn. On Zalanthas,
those who have high wisdom often learn from their mistakes quicker, magickers
regenerate faster, and languages are picked up more easily.

Couple this with the famous 'help faq_9':

   In almost every instance, skills and spells are learned by practice. If
your character has some basic knowledge of a skill or spell (i.e., if it
appears in your 'skills' list), then it will improve by doing it over and
over again. When you fail in an attempt to use a skill or spell, there is a
chance it will improve.

Hope that helps.

[MeTekillot]

Code Select Expand


You lightly slash the lanky brown gith's neck.

You lightly slash the lanky brown gith's body.

You slash the lanky brown gith's body.

vs

Code Select Expand


The lanky brown gith swiftly dodges your slash.

The lanky brown gith swiftly dodges your slash.

You slash the lanky brown gith's neck, doing unspeakable damage.


[Miradus]

Thanks. Does help.

The throwaway comment made that wisdom was going to start being more important made me question what I thought I had known.

[Lizzie]

Thanks. Does help.

The throwaway comment made that wisdom was going to start being more important made me question what I thought I had known.

I interpreted it as:

Whatever wisdom used to do, it'll do more efficiently now. If you failed an attempt on craft rock into masterpiece, AND all your ducks are lined up nicely in a row, AND the timer has been appropriately reset, AND you have AI wisdom, you will now enjoy a X% increase in "chance to improve" over what you used to enjoy, prior to the change.

[nauta]

It got me thinking though.  I've never really liked 'wisdom' (or stats like 'charisma' in old D&D), because both are, to me at least, things that you role-play and not things that affect code.  But here wisdom does seem to affect skillgains -- the rate at which you learn.

Sooooooooooooooooooo, tying it into the other thread, another possibility for casuals (or those who don't like progression) would be to:

The Wise Wimp:

o Give them AI wisdom.
o Give them below average everything else.

[Miradus]

I don't know how the mechanic works and they aren't inclined to share that info, but as it is ... wisdom just means I get to the top faster or slower but I do (in theory) have the ability to reach the top.

I have wanted for a long time to play older characters, but what stops me each time is the really hateful attribute penalties levied against them. I would much prefer being able to offset slightly diminished strength and speed with wisdom and skill, but thus far I haven't seen that in the random rolls. My age 40+ characters always end up at below average or (at best) average in their physical stats.

[seidhr]

I shared this story once before but it's along the lines of what you guys are discussing.

Some skills' effective level are affected by various attributes.

As a player in the past I had a young elf who had a high agility.  He had the climb skill and his guild would allow him to 'master' the skill.  At some point during his 'advanced' climb period, he simply ceased to fail at climbing (and hence, he ceased getting further skill gains in climb).  The bonus he was getting from being super agile pushed his ability to climb well past his actual 'skill' level in the climb skill.  He went probably 30 days of played time without failing a climb - ever, and this was a character that was climbing constantly, but stuck at 'advanced' skill.

One day I logged in and the character had a "birthday" and aged to his next year.  In 'score' I noticed that his agility had dropped from exceptional to extremely good.  Didn't think much of it, but then within the hour I went to scale a cliff and he... gasp, slipped and didn't succeed.  He was still really good at climbing but started to fail once in awhile.  A few days later I noticed his skill had finally advanced to 'master' in climb and once it did, he ceased failing climbs once again.

So tldr; is that attributes can have an effect on how good you are at something but they don't limit you from getting to your guild or subguild's cap in the skill.  Perhaps counter-intuitively, they can actually do the opposite.  If you're so [smart/agile/strong/enduring] at [whatever] that you simply stop failing, having a high attribute can actually prevent the skill from going higher in your 'skills' display - but if this were the case it would mean that you were effectively so good at it anyway that you didn't ever fail.

Thus, someone's idea about having a character who had absurdly high wisdom but low of every other stat - yes, that is probably an accurate 'reading between the lines.'

[Miradus]

I guess I will give it another try to have an annuated character when I die and start a new one. On paper it seems like it should work. Theorycrafting for the win.

[Armaddict]

Out of curiosity, Seidhr...

In the case that you are 'stat-capped' as you describe on a skill that you require to branch into some other very necessary skill...is it preferred we request, do a couple twinky things, or just...deal with it?

If it's the last case, then in combination with a few other discussions/feelings going around, maybe we should look at moving 'branching skill levels' and put them a lot lower to allow the tree to spread out earlier.  This would make attaining master a truly end-game goal, instead of something that feels necessary/imperative for development.

[Vwest]

This would make attaining master a truly end-game goal, instead of something that feels necessary/imperative for development.

We're talking about assassin and ranger parry here, right?

[Armaddict]

This would make attaining master a truly end-game goal, instead of something that feels necessary/imperative for development.

We're talking about assassin and ranger parry here, right?

Eh, do those get stat-capped?

I was making a general rule of it for everything.  Stealth skills are particularly vulnerable to not branching due to high agility.  We already have kind of a wide consensus that weapon skills should branch lower for warriors.  Maybe lowering the branch level on all of them would remove some of that 'I need this!' drive?

[Jihelu]

I wouldn't say Seid was stat capped but maybe he wasn't twinking nearly as hard to get his lost falls in, if everyone truly thinks it was impossible for him to fail.
When I had a character with advanced wisdom, he was human but quite young, I basically stopped falling at ADvanced. When I did fall though, I hit master and I don't think I ever fell again on that character.

[Majikal]

I wouldn't say Seid was stat capped but maybe he wasn't twinking nearly as hard to get his lost falls in, if everyone truly thinks it was impossible for him to fail.
When I had a character with advanced wisdom, he was human but quite young, I basically stopped falling at ADvanced. When I did fall though, I hit master and I don't think I ever fell again on that character.

Climb relies on agility, Seidr was talking about a c-elf with impressive agility. The same can go with many skills, try getting master throw with a mul or master archery on a d-elf with AI agility. While seeing MASTER in a skill is hella awesome I've honestly played an assassin with journeyman sneak/hide who through stats+gear shadowed a noble around for the better part of two days while he attended various meetings.

Wisdom to me is a great stat, I love it when I have it but I don't rely on it as heavily as I do other stats in the roles I play usually. I play often so skills raising to me is simply time, which I have plenty of. However, the few times I've got to enjoy a character with exceptional wisdom, especially those pc's that crafted or had perception skills, the difference was pretty good.

Think hide is OP? Prio Wis and fear not my children.

[Jihelu]

I know that but I was saying it seemed like people were thinking it was straight impossible to level things if you had good stats. I may have just read weird.

[seidhr]

Out of curiosity, Seidhr...

In the case that you are 'stat-capped' as you describe on a skill that you require to branch into some other very necessary skill...is it preferred we request, do a couple twinky things, or just...deal with it?

If it's the last case, then in combination with a few other discussions/feelings going around, maybe we should look at moving 'branching skill levels' and put them a lot lower to allow the tree to spread out earlier.  This would make attaining master a truly end-game goal, instead of something that feels necessary/imperative for development.

I've never seen this phenomena prevent someone from branching.  If you feel it is preventing your branch, you could always ask us to take a look.  We can see the last time a skill advanced.  If you just want to see 'master' in your skills list I have the world's smallest violin here ready to play for you.  ;-)

[Majikal]

Mmmm... dual wield branching lower would make me happppppy.

It makes such a huge change in combat capability it's always weird for 15-20 days played and then finally it's like POW you kick ass now. The branching JUST before you cap thing is kind of odd. I love the natural progression you see in more of the extended subguild branching, but that's another thread I think. Even cooler if you could make progression limited of one skill by it's parent skill like say a ranger branches parry while at jman but his parry only goes to apprentice until he reaches advanced etc.

Guild changes rolling out might just do that though, who knows!

[Hauwke]

Skills are wierd, I have never had much of an issue with characters and ridiculously low wisdom (excluding dorfs and hgs since I havent played much of the former and never the latter) But given enough time its not an issue, but that in itself is the issue, it needs plenty of time and some people just dont have that time. While I would like to see:
Skills
Slashing weapons  (master) piercing weapons  (master)
Bludgeoning weapons  (master) chopping weapons  (master

I dont think it is feasible because of the way good combat characters work. Without some proper twinking I dont see it happening and to be fair mastering several weapons isnt unrealistic. -truly- mastering them is another thing though so its whatever.

Tl;dr some kind of buff to skill learning is wanted but not really needed.

[Armaddict]

Out of curiosity, Seidhr...

In the case that you are 'stat-capped' as you describe on a skill that you require to branch into some other very necessary skill...is it preferred we request, do a couple twinky things, or just...deal with it?

If it's the last case, then in combination with a few other discussions/feelings going around, maybe we should look at moving 'branching skill levels' and put them a lot lower to allow the tree to spread out earlier.  This would make attaining master a truly end-game goal, instead of something that feels necessary/imperative for development.

I've never seen this phenomena prevent someone from branching.  If you feel it is preventing your branch, you could always ask us to take a look.  We can see the last time a skill advanced.  If you just want to see 'master' in your skills list I have the world's smallest violin here ready to play for you.  ;-)

Last time for me it was a burglar's sneak skill.  And I've heard of it happening from pickpocket sneak as well.

[Jihelu]

For sneak it's usually just a thing of having a friend enemy I don't even know watch you or something.
Worse case scenario they fail their watch.
Best case scenario you fail your ability.
And if you keep succeeding their watch/scan/whatever will get to the point where they'll spot you eventually, or atleast more often.
Everybody wins!
Please don't twink.

[seidhr]

Last time for me it was a burglar's sneak skill.  And I've heard of it happening from pickpocket sneak as well.

Burglar sneak doesn't actually branch to any other skill so that may be why you were having troubles branching it.  ;-)

[Armaddict]

Last time for me it was a burglar's sneak skill.  And I've heard of it happening from pickpocket sneak as well.

Burglar sneak doesn't actually branch to any other skill so that may be why you were having troubles branching it.  ;-)

That's because search was removed.  Unless you're saying it never did.

[solera]

My wisdom stats have NEVER increased, as far as I remember.

[Jihelu]

My wisdom stats have NEVER increased, as far as I remember.

That is very strange.