Subdue and the repercussions

[kiddgoth]

Well where to start, lets just say my last character had an untimely demise by the hands of a code abuser with knowledge of the subdue cheat move. Here is what I suggest, if the person that is about to be subdued is weilding weapons I believe that person should get a first strike with one or both of there weapons before the subdue is resolved, not that I think subdue is a bad skill just easily abused in some larger characters, at least getting an attack in makes you fell better when you see that lovable green mantis head. Tell me what you people think.

:idea:

[tland]

I've never used that actualy.

But I don't see why Half giants /muls /super strong elves shouldn't be able to grab you before you can react.

Rl Ex:

Wrestling.

Ex: chokehold

Ex: tackling someone


If you were to go to the 2 hits before subdued thing then NPC guards would be 100% lethal most of the time.

Plus if they did that, in RL if your fighting someone you can STILL grab them.
So if you were to alter it to the 2 strikes then subdued thing it should also be altered so you could subdue DURRING combat.


All I can say is if someone twinks you and uses Subdue and then kill on you with no Rp.
Log and send it in.

[the halfling]

I'm sorry your character died.

Half-giants and buff people like them.
They are strong.
That is why you shouldn't piss them off.  I'm kind of leaning toward the fact that you probably did, if not then do the above advice and send the log to the staff.
This is why they are karma races, because they are so deadly they require a responsible player.

I don't consider the fact that big strong people like that can kill you with ease to be code abuse, cause well.. there is a reason why people hire half-giants and such, that is why, you just don't mess with them unless you are buff yourself or crazy!   They are seriously more then twice your size.. sheesh.

I had an experience with a half-giant that attacked me, and I applaud that giant for not killing me since he could have easily did.

[kiddgoth]

I could care less about the dying I appauld well thought out kills, and believe me I didnt do anything to upset this giant, I know better. but in reality if some one jumped on anyone with a knife thier ass is going to get stuck..... escpecially from a trained weapons weilder.

Look on the bright side, at least you can no longer wield one weapon while someone is subdued and nail them with it.

[John]

What if I sneak up behind you, you aren't going to be able to attack me. I'd also like to see subdue possible in combat, but I can understand the reasoning for not having it. If someone has a sword between you and them, subduing aint gunna be easy.

Oh, I just remembered something you might want to know. I've had imms animate H-G soldiers and subdue kill me before, so don't call it abusing and cheating.  Cheap? Sure, lame? Why not... but its not against code, or they would have made it so you cant.

[kiddgoth]

Obviously its not against the code, I was saying maybe the code should be modified, The Imm's can keep there loop in for the Npc's, listen I play 90% warriors so I like subdue, this isnt about a scorned player crying its about realistic combat... just a thought appreciate your input
:lol:

[X-D]

Well, I think I see what you are getting at, Myself I have always wondered how my char with two weapons at ready can be grabbed and subdued without the subdue-er :wink:  taking even a scratch, as a poster said

What if I sneak up behind you, you aren't going to be able to attack me. I'd also like to see subdue possible in combat, but I can understand the reasoning for not having it. If someone has a sword between you and them, subduing aint gunna be easy.

That is the point, we are talking about subdueing somebody who has weapons ready and is not being suprised.
(sorry, I have not figured out the quote thing yet)
another poster

But I don't see why Half giants /muls /super strong elves shouldn't be able to grab you before you can react.


um, sure, I do not think that much more agile then the halfgiant person would ever notice something two to three times his size moving to grab him, after all, we know that halfgiants can move with blinding speed and agility even though they have the lowest agi in the game

Plus if they did that, in RL if your fighting someone you can STILL grab them.
So if you were to alter it to the 2 strikes then subdued thing it should also be altered so you could subdue DURRING combat.

fine with me, but still with no weapons wielded by the subduer and at an even greater disadvantage, say if subdueing during combat still get the one-two swings (depending on number of weapons, if any) plus a delay for the subduer before anymore commands for him can go through, I am betting IRL (I know, no HG's Irl) I could easily kill anybody trying to grab me if I was ready for them and I had a baseball bat


course, I would have also logged it and sent it in

I agree, you should be able to try and grab someone in combat and have to take saves against the combatants for getting nailed. So, if whatever it is you guys want in, it would make even more sense to have this in at the same time. Just think about the whole thing before you start to complain.  :twisted:

I imagine it would be set up like when you try to "get" something during combat, you know, sometimes your opponents get the little attack of opprotunity with "while the balding, cross-eyed man tries to pick something up"

[YellowCactus]

I'd like to see a longer delay for reattempting a failed subdue.

Longer? The delay is almost as long as kill or bash, I figure it doesn't take nearly that long for you to realize weather or not you've grabbed a guy. Now how about all y'all stop complaining and leave it how it is.

[krelin]

What's really needed is a flag that causes you to immediately attack subduers like NPCs do.  That would make subduing player significantly more dangerous.  (also, this shouldn't make you a criminal inside a city-state, unless your subduer is a guard)  It's self-defense.

[John]

What's really needed is a flag that causes you to immediately attack subduers like NPCs do.

Also make teaching someone to subdue a hell of a lot more dangerous when you don't want to attack them but your forced too cause of the code.

> The Sergeant tries to subdue you, but you struggle away
> You punch the Sergeant in the head
> flee
> The Sergeant says "I've warned about you doing that!!!"

[krelin]

That's why it's a -flag-.  Like nosave?

[John]

Well in that case I like the idea. (sorry, was extremely tired).

There should be a flag to attack someone when they fail subduing you.

Its called the kill command, if your not captured, attack the guy yourself.

[Twilight]

I'd like to disagree with the notion that if someone has their sword or whatever out, it is going to be all that much harder to subdue them.

The reason you wouldn't to this to someone with, lets say, a katana is because that thing is sharp.  Very sharp.  Its something that would slice through your leather gloves and the hand underneath with easy if you tried to grab it.  Now lets consider the weapons of Zalanthas.  These are made of stone, bone and wood mostly.  If you grabbed any of these with your gloved hand, even if they pull the weapon back out of your hand, its probably not going to cut through your gloves.  Nearly every weapon I have seen so far on Armageddon, based on the description, is an impact weapon.  It has to be moving, it has to have force behind it, to do real damage.  Now, if I am standing next to you on Zalanthas, and you have your sword out, and I attempt to bat away your sword and subdue you, this means for your sword to be effective against me, you have to get it moving (Obviously not true with Earth swords, because they are SHARP).  Guess what, my bare hands are going to be a lot faster than your hands with the sword in them.

This leaves daggers and small weapons I guess.  Easy to get moving, generally you poke them in things, so you just need to move it into your opponent.  So, yes, people with daggers would be somewhat hard to subdue, but still not as hard as someone on Earth with a knife, because knives here are sharp and pointed, not just pointed.  Add to that even here on earth, if you are talking about a knife weilder going against bare hands, some sensei's will tell you unless the knife weilder is skilled, its either about even, or the knife weilder is at a disadvantage.

[Rindan]

I tend to disagree that having a weapon out is not going to make a difference.  If my character is fast enough and powerful enough to easily knock aside two weapons at once with ease, then he sure as shit has the same ability to dispatch a pair of hands.  Further, if you have no weapon out when you are trying to grab someone, there is no need to bother being careful with your swings, just crush their skull with your weapon.  Additionally, you have also have superior reach.  If you know they are coming, then they are going to have to come through your weapons before they get a hand on you.  Hell, for an experiment, give one guy a baseball bat, and then try and 'subdue' him.  If the guy with the baseball bat really wants to hurt you, you are not going to get past him without taking some serious pain.  Now replace that baseball bat with something like a spiked mace, a bone sword, or an obsidian knife.  There is a reason why people prefer weapons.

Without the element of surprise, using the subdue skill on someone with a weapon should be very hard and very dangerous.  The simple fact is that the guy with the weapon has all the advantages.

[Twilight]

I suppose it all depends on what range you start from.  Give a guy a baseball bat, put me three feet away from him, and unless he knows some staff stuff, yes, he is gonna get subdued.  Quickly and painfully.  Unless he drops the bat, in which case he could grapple me, but then the bat wouldn't be an issue.  At three feet away, you couldn't put enough force behind a swing quick enough to hurt me with a bat unless you were hugely strong, unless of course, you knew to thrust it at me, rather than swing it at me.  Its not that I am strong or quick, I just know enough that at that range to hurt you.

You seem to have assumed that I have to get within range.  Fair enough.  A bit harder.  From five feet, unless you are actively threatening me (have your bat drawn back whatever) I would still have a very good chance of subduing someone.  From ten feet, it would go down, I'd probably have to lead with a kick to be able to do it.  If you were actively threatening me at those ranges (which I wasn't really assuming in my argument) its a different deal.  My argument was that you are using IMPACT weapons.  As such, you have to have them ready to deal an impact.  If you do not, a subduer has a very good chance of subduing you, even if you have a weapon in your hand.  If you are being actively threatened with such weapons (they have them drawn back, ready to hit) its a different deal altogether.  If someone is emoting holding their sword in front of them, between themselves and the person who might try to subdue them, sorry but I am gonna laugh if I think that subduing person is anywhere close to the sword person.  Quite simply, in such a position, because their weapon is not sharp (might be obsidian sharp, but that isn't really like a metal weapon, if you have had experience with obsidian) the blade itself is not much of a threat (unless you are going to thrust) because you have to draw it back generally, to land a blow with impact.  And if your subduer is anywhere close to you, you will be subdued well before this.

Please also read the last paragraph of my post.  It is not a fact that the person with a weapon has all the advantages.  As I said, some sensei's teach that unless a person with a knife is skilled (this is in real life) they are at a disadvantage vs an unarmed opponent.  It is not as easy to knock aside hands as it might be a weapon, hands tend to grab you.

I'm not really against your argument, from range, with the person with a weapon having it in position etc, sure its gonna be damn hard to subdue a person.  I was trying to make an argument why just having a sword out, in your hand, is not necessarily a threat to someone subduing you, though.

Think about the fact the attacker has weapons to? Perhaps they only drop them after they knock yours aside enough to give them a free space. And as for a baseball bat, I beleive this topic is about Half-Giants, so the giant could rip it from your hand and beat you with it. I think however that isn't going to happen, and never will. If many realistic positive things won't happen, don't argue about the negative ones.

:roll:

[X-D]

ok, where to start

I suppose it all depends on what range you start from. Give a guy a baseball bat, put me three feet away from him, and unless he knows some staff stuff, yes, he is gonna get subdued. Quickly and painfully. Unless he drops the bat, in which case he could grapple me, but then the bat wouldn't be an issue. At three feet away, you couldn't put enough force behind a swing quick enough to hurt me with a bat unless you were hugely strong, unless of course, you knew to thrust it at me, rather than swing it at me. Its not that I am strong or quick, I just know enough that at that range to hurt you.

ok, I personaly do have the staff/stick skills but do basicly agree that somebody who did not would not have a chance, but we are not talking about somebody who sits in front of a computer, we are talking of battle hardened (in most cases) zalanthans who have been having to fight all their lives with the weapons they use, they for the most part are large, fast, strong and skilled, and if the person has his weapons at ready then he is acting ready for aggressive action and no way (at least I would not) he is going to let you come inside/past efective weapons range, also, I would love to see you IRL try to knock my staff aside barehanded or my sticks, even from three feet :twisted:

lets see here, what next, oh.

Quite simply, in such a position, because their weapon is not sharp (might be obsidian sharp, but that isn't really like a metal weapon, if you have had experience with obsidian) the blade itself is not much of a threat (unless you are going to thrust) because you have to draw it back generally, to land a blow with impact. And if your subduer is anywhere close to you, you will be subdued well before this.

ok, need to check up on that one since obsidian, flint, jasper and a few other stones can (by a skilled craftsman) be flaked/chipped to an edge that has to be measured in microns, just a few molecules thick, far sharper then any steel ever, there has been knives found over 20,000 years old even back to cro-magnan made of just such stones still as sharp as the day they were made, now give me a razor edged obsidian tomahawk, yes, me, a 200lbs x-roofer skilled with hammer and roofing axes and unless you have abs inc halfling agi I am betting you loose a limb, at least, even from 3' away

but, even using the arguement that it can be done if you are close enough
again I state, gonna take some time for that giant to get his huge meathook around to grab me, look how far it has to go, I should able to at least stab a pinky :lol:

I suppose, we could make it - if your holding a weapon out its a bit harder to be subdued, and if you don't have one its a bit easier? And it could be amplified by having a shield too.

Would this solve all our problems?

I agree with N/A, don't give some attacks, just make it harder. And if that happens, and they fail, you still have some of their 'subdue' lag to attack them with, if you so desire.