Thrain Ironsword

[Malken]

That's a downside for learning some of the old lore: it's so different that it comes across as twinky and stupid (and some of it is just stupid), even if it was just how things were back in the day.

It's all gotta start somewhere.

Full disclosure, I asked Withered Ocotillo (my husband) to come post here and share some of his ancient memories, since at this point, it's starting to qualify as RL history just as much as in game history. He no longer plays the game but remembers Thrain and the events of that time.

He's been walking around the house laughing about reconnecting with his old buddy Malken for the past half hour.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111111

NO WAY

[Armaddict]

Cool to hear the actual story.

Honestly, hearing it from the enemy perspective probably made it better, for me at least.  In 1998, I think it was, I made a dwarf named Zurak and found a templar and told them I was a gladiator-slave.  They got me set up very quickly, and at one point they were talking about Thrain.  I had no idea what it meant at the time. 

[seidhr]

It's fine to share this stuff but please remember one very important thing:

This is a world with no written history for the VAST majority of its population.  And this is a world where the Allanaki templarate (and potentially the nobility as well) ergo - the people who maintain the written history - would actively suppress (think:  book-burning) knowledge of a defeat at the hands of a bunch of rag-tag slaves, if it were written down. 

I do not want to see anyone running around IC with in-depth IC knowledge of Thrain or any of this history.  OOCly knowing [stuff] that happened back in the day is well and good.

[Jherlen]

It's fine to share this stuff but please remember one very important thing:

This is a world with no written history for the VAST majority of its population.  And this is a world where the Allanaki templarate (and potentially the nobility as well) ergo - the people who maintain the written history - would actively suppress (think:  book-burning) knowledge of a defeat at the hands of a bunch of rag-tag slaves, if it were written down. 

I do not want to see anyone running around IC with in-depth IC knowledge of Thrain or any of this history.  OOCly knowing [stuff] that happened back in the day is well and good.

Not saying that anyone living alive in Zalanthas today would know details, but on the Chronology page it does say (emphasis mine):

Over the course of the next few years, a temple is built near the entrance of the city, in which the newly formed white-robe templarate preach the worship of He Who Rescued Us, the Mighty Dragon Tektolnes.

Could this be interpreted as Allanak acknowledging a defeat (in the battle sense, not the war sense), in order to make Tektolnes' subsequent victory that much more emphatic, sort of akin to how Tek also buried Steinal after his army failed to take it? The He Who Rescued Us Bit seems to imply the city needed rescuing even in the official narrative.

Trying to erase all knowledge of the defeat sounds like something more out of the Tuluki playbook; Allanak seems more like a place where people would say "Yeah, whatever, there was a siege for a bit and such but then HERE CAME TEKTOLNES AND HE WAS ALL LIKE A DRAGON AND WAS LIKE WHOOOOOSH AND PEW PEW AND HE SHOT FIRE AND STUFF AND KILLED EVERYTHING AND THERE WAS SO MUCH BLOOD AND DEATH IT WAS AWESOME... and thats why we got us a steel dragon statue now I guess."

[Desertman]

Hehe, it was a crazy Wild West time back then.

Things weren't as strict as they are now, but the playerbase was so small that if you knew two or three people, you had connections with just about every player on the OOC level in ONE WAY or ANOTHER.

It's just part of the evolution of the game.

It's kind of charming in a nostalgic way.

Great read.

[Malken]

I really enjoy the fact that it shows that it's not so much the game you play but the memories you make of it that make the greatest stories in the end.

Withered Ocotillo managed to write an epic story about an event that was, to me, something like any other "game of the weekend" I've played with these guys. Now that I've read the way he wrote it, I'm amazed that I was actually part of this and can't believe it's the story that often comes up when people mention what you can do on Arm if you put the time in it (also the fact that I probably didn't understand 90% of what was going on didn't help any, heh)

My most vivid memories of this time was actually the summers I've spent with Withered Ocotillo and friends on a game where you would mostly just ring a bell and then everyone would kill the monster that came out, except the RL friends I've made on it is what made it so memorable to me and also probably why me and Withered Ocotillo could remember right away all the names of the "characters" we got involved with on such a simple game.

[seidhr]

Not saying that anyone living alive in Zalanthas today would know details, but on the Chronology page it does say (emphasis mine):

Over the course of the next few years, a temple is built near the entrance of the city, in which the newly formed white-robe templarate preach the worship of He Who Rescued Us, the Mighty Dragon Tektolnes.

Could this be interpreted as Allanak acknowledging a defeat (in the battle sense, not the war sense), in order to make Tektolnes' subsequent victory that much more emphatic, sort of akin to how Tek also buried Steinal after his army failed to take it? The He Who Rescued Us Bit seems to imply the city needed rescuing even in the official narrative.

Trying to erase all knowledge of the defeat sounds like something more out of the Tuluki playbook; Allanak seems more like a place where people would say "Yeah, whatever, there was a siege for a bit and such but then HERE CAME TEKTOLNES AND HE WAS ALL LIKE A DRAGON AND WAS LIKE WHOOOOOSH AND PEW PEW AND HE SHOT FIRE AND STUFF AND KILLED EVERYTHING AND THERE WAS SO MUCH BLOOD AND DEATH IT WAS AWESOME... and thats why we got us a steel dragon statue now I guess."

That's probably open to interpretation yes.  My main point is I just don't want to see the more in-depth OOC knowledge leaking into the game world.  The chronology page is written in such a way that it might reflect what people know from an oral storytelling tradition, tavern gossip, etc.

[LauraMars]

There's actually a mural in Allanak depicting the siege. With this in mind I don't think knowledge of the Thrain Ironsword history is being actively suppressed in Nakki culture.  The important thing is that Tektolnes came and triumphed in the end.

I think what Seidhr might be saying is that it's inconceivable that such minute details shared here (such as the name of the blue robes involved and whatnot), being removed several lifetimes over from any PC currently living, would be known by any but the most well-read of high ranking Templars. As with all OOC knowledge, you have to be good about recognizing what your character would know. This is true for plant and animal lore on the website to magick spells to your ability to get to Luirs' Outpost.

As a long time player, I am constantly roleplaying as more ignorant than I actually am, and I think that's what's being pointed out here.

[Norcal]

That was  nice to read and I reckon would have been great fun to have participated in. I wish we could have such things happen again, not the same things, but similar things.

[Evilone]

What a great history lesson! Thanks very much for taking the time to write that up. One thing I've always felt sad about Armageddon was a lack of literacy in the game. I think there could be so much more potential with keeping character histories alive and stories IG and not just OOCly known, if somehow literacy became open learning within Allanak.

[AdamBlue]

I'm waiting for that update...

"With the Historian Sub-Guild added to the game, these people hold a powerful tool that ups the ante over the linguist that could prove dangerous to society as a whole. People who choose the Historian subguild will require an explained background, and start with two very important abilities. The first is the ability to speak, read and write in both sirihish as well as their race's own language, with humans learning the ancient speech of Tatlum, which uttering without being a Templar could lead to instant death. In addition, these people would be given starting equipment; A journal, and some various books of a chosen subject worked out with staff that this Historian would be an expert with. This sub-guild should add interesting flavor to the game, and allow for a slightly quicker progression of literacy in the common populace through illegal means, as well as an easy way for people to keep logs that may be found in other parts of the world, or allow for the dramatic flair when a book or journal of value is obliterated into kindling."

[BrokenRomance]

I'm waiting for that update...

"With the Historian Sub-Guild added to the game, these people hold a powerful tool that ups the ante over the linguist that could prove dangerous to society as a whole. People who choose the Historian subguild will require an explained background, and start with two very important abilities. The first is the ability to speak, read and write in both sirihish as well as their race's own language, with humans learning the ancient speech of Tatlum, which uttering without being a Templar could lead to instant death. In addition, these people would be given starting equipment; A journal, and some various books of a chosen subject worked out with staff that this Historian would be an expert with. This sub-guild should add interesting flavor to the game, and allow for a slightly quicker progression of literacy in the common populace through illegal means, as well as an easy way for people to keep logs that may be found in other parts of the world, or allow for the dramatic flair when a book or journal of value is obliterated into kindling."

I could see this becoming "Know what I hate more than a 'gicker? A damn historian." somehow. Somebody would find a way.

[Tuannon]

Envy for literate types would be a thing fuelled by the well off (not even just highborn), even if literacy did become commonplace. The advantage of storable knowledge as opposed to fallible oral history is too great for most folks to give up.

The only people who would benefit from literacy are the high up commoners, the common man or woman would be far more interested in not starving than dealing with books and literacy matters. And believe me the cost of paper and so on would go up if the demand was wider.

[Incognito]

No player-run PC currently alive, is going to know about such old PCs.

The only way is to find an NPC who might know something and be open to divulging it to you.

Saying "Find out IC" to everything - is incorrect.

In cases such as this - you CANNOT find out ICLY.

[valeria]

Saying "Find out IC" to everything - is incorrect.

In cases such as this - you CANNOT find out ICLY.

Unless you have literate connections who can and will search the virtual libraries for you.

[Incognito]

Saying "Find out IC" to everything - is incorrect.

In cases such as this - you CANNOT find out ICLY.

Unless you have literate connections who can and will search the virtual libraries for you.

This is fine for the sake of argument.

For the sake of argument, we can also state that ALL information about ALL PCs is available somewhere in some virtual library or known by some VNPC.

That realistically and practically speaking - doesn't mean that you can find out ICLY.

Moreover, Tuluk is closed ICLY - so all libraries and NPCs (virtual and real) are inaccessible at the moment.

Furthermore, approaching a "literate connection" who has the ability to search virtual libraries - is just another word for a VNPC or a PC who will access virtual info.

No player-run PC currently alive, is going to know about such old PCs.

The only way is to find an NPC who might know something and be open to divulging it to you.

[valeria]

Saying "Find out IC" to everything - is incorrect.

In cases such as this - you CANNOT find out ICLY.

Unless you have literate connections who can and will search the virtual libraries for you.

Moreover, Tuluk is closed ICLY - so all libraries and NPCs (virtual and real) are inaccessible at the moment.

You're incorrect.  Allanak has a library that can be searched by PCs, and using PC connections to access virtual information is still finding out IC.

I think it's an accurate characterization to say historical information would be difficult to find out IC.  But to say that you "cannot" find old historical information out IC is going a little too far.

[Suhuy]

the playerbase was so small that if you knew two or three people, you had connections with just about every player on the OOC level in ONE WAY or ANOTHER.

Actually the player base was a lot larger back then than it is now. It was common to have to wait before you could log in until someone else logged out because the game capped at 99 or 100.

[Malken]

the playerbase was so small that if you knew two or three people, you had connections with just about every player on the OOC level in ONE WAY or ANOTHER.

Actually the player base was a lot larger back then than it is now. It was common to have to wait before you could log in until someone else logged out because the game capped at 99 or 100.

What? No, not even close. Not even close to the numbers we have today. Pretty sure it was a huge thing when it got into the 20's.

Where did you even get those numbers??

[Withered Ocotillo]

Saying "Find out IC" to everything - is incorrect.

In cases such as this - you CANNOT find out ICLY.

Unless you have literate connections who can and will search the virtual libraries for you.

Moreover, Tuluk is closed ICLY - so all libraries and NPCs (virtual and real) are inaccessible at the moment.

You're incorrect.  Allanak has a library that can be searched by PCs, and using PC connections to access virtual information is still finding out IC.

I think it's an accurate characterization to say historical information would be difficult to find out IC.  But to say that you "cannot" find old historical information out IC is going a little too far.

One of the problems with information that is as old as the Ironsword siege of Allanak is that there are almost no players or even staff members that know the details of the history. So while a PC can roleplay working towards finding out information that's hundreds of years old in-game, there really isn't any staff member that is going to be able to provide the information to the PC, because the staff member doesn't know the details of what happened.

Nessalin may be the only active staff member that can recall some of the events of what happened back then, and I imagine his memory is also filled with gaps because the events happened so long ago. I think it's helpful to draw on the play experiences of players and staff alike to put together some of what happened in the very distant past, or otherwise all of these story details will eventually be lost to time.

[nauta]

I really enjoyed WO's post and how it is presented (the mixing of OOC and IC is nice -- it sort of reminds me of a mix between Walter Benjamin's Arcades and one of those TSR pre-made D&D campaign books) -- it got me thinking.  What if we (as a player/staff-base) came up with a list of interesting events (HRPTs) that happened in the past and tried to write up a kind of summation of those events, one after the other.  It could go into the original submissions thread eventually, a kind of Chronicles of Zalanthas, but maybe would start out as individual threads where we cultivate our collective memory of the events in question.

E.g.:

o Red Fangs.
o Dragonthraal/Dune Stalkers.
o Mantis Attack on Luir's.
o The Flood Thing.
o Copper Wars.
o Tyn Dashra
o Ten Serak (or whatever it is)

[Withered Ocotillo]

the playerbase was so small that if you knew two or three people, you had connections with just about every player on the OOC level in ONE WAY or ANOTHER.

Actually the player base was a lot larger back then than it is now. It was common to have to wait before you could log in until someone else logged out because the game capped at 99 or 100.

If I remember correctly, the player cap was actually set to 30 during the siege of Ironsword days, and I think the cap later grew and stayed at 40 for quite a few years. I don't remember the peak number of players on an average night, but I recall that you did sometimes hit the 30 cap on some weekends, even without special events, so you had to wait to play. You could actually feel the MUD lagging when you hit the player cap, back then.

[seidhr]

Yeah I remember there being a cap, but it was nowhere close to 100.

[Desertman]

Yar, I remember being HAPPY AS A SCRAB IN SAND when I would login after the mandatory Saturday Hell that was the dreaded All Day Maintenance time and I would see 25 - 30 people online. That was a busy peak time then.

[Incognito]

Saying "Find out IC" to everything - is incorrect.

In cases such as this - you CANNOT find out ICLY.

Unless you have literate connections who can and will search the virtual libraries for you.

Moreover, Tuluk is closed ICLY - so all libraries and NPCs (virtual and real) are inaccessible at the moment.

You're incorrect.  Allanak has a library that can be searched by PCs, and using PC connections to access virtual information is still finding out IC.

I think it's an accurate characterization to say historical information would be difficult to find out IC.  But to say that you "cannot" find old historical information out IC is going a little too far.

Of course my statement meant - ALL libraries and NPCs (virtual and real) in TULUK are inaccessible at the moment.

The ones in Allanak are definitely accessible.

That still means that approximately 50% of ICLY available info to the common Zalanthan - is inaccessible.

The OOC issue is - there have been tons of famous and infamous PCs who have become legends in the Known World over the existence of the game. And realistically speaking, the ONLY way to access such info would be to get Staff involved. Knowing how busy they are as is, it is probable but unlikely that random requests from PCs for the history of so-and-so PC will be searched out and presented.

Maybe someday, Staff might consider assigning some of their energies into archiving and releasing some info on certain PCs from the past, but again, that is asking for a lot. Another thing to consider is - there were no Biographies back in those days, so its not even easy for Staff to go back and look up something with relative ease.

Edited to add: Two thumbs up to Withered Ocotillo's post.