What traits make an item a CODED clan item?

[Taven]

It's not a terrible idea and is a workaround I would use. I just prefer not to have to. I feel if we can IC'ly explain why other clans get "recipe immunity", even when those recipes are bland and basic it wouldn't be a huge stretch to grant the same OOC consideration to the working progress of MMH's in progress.

I will agree with that as a sensible idea when it is brought about the same way as it is for any other group's, i.e. Let's see Salarr start having to guard their recipes.  Some of their stuff is not particularly hard to make, and sure, someone making them might be in some trouble, but that should still be a possibility if we use the above as the standard.

The question: What makes an item unique enough to a House to make it codedly protected?

Follow-up includes possible proposals of better systems.

Discuss.

[Jihelu]

I've got no clue.
Better equipment? If thats the case unless houses have the lock down on all "Bone altering equipment/whatever" then anyone should be able to buy whatever they need.
I'd like to see some weapon specifics or something not too crazy available to players if they say, bought some sort of work bench perhaps.

[Armaddict]

Quote from: Armaddict on Today at 10:17:11 AM
Quote
It would be similar to someone wanting to steal Kadius' secret gem-cutting methods so that they could make pieces of jewlery that are cut, instead of polished. This is IC. The OOC with Kadius is that it is harder to do because of the OOC way the clan is set up.

...that's not comparable at all.  These items are not some cherished secret -process-, they are items.  The same as any other item in the game.  Trying to make the analogy that because it is a mastercraft, it is now more closely related to some other thing that is not an item is a move that is only made to conveniently reinforce your argument.

These are items.  The same items that other clans make.

I think you're getting offtrack on the premise.

The premise is that 'a golden-finished wardrobe' is a multiple-level craft protected by the key ingredient of 'golden finish', which is a unique item. It is specially used to treat the wood to give it the golden finish. The process of making it is secret.

Kadius' item, it's call it 'a finely-cut dimond ring' is a craft that requires 'a finely cut diamond' which is an item produced by secret Kadian diamond cutting techniques. The tools used to do this are guarded jealously, it is a Kadian secret.

The only difference between these two scenarios are that Kadius has CODED protection to their items, rather then needing to require multiple craft layers to protect what they make. That is a completely different discussion, which I have made a thread for here.

If you want to discuss or reply to this post, please post there. We're derailing this thread.

...I'm really confused.  The original premise, the part that I was replying to, was about protected status of items from a MMH perspective versus existing-clan perspective.  The difference being, a Salarri item cannot be made by a non-salarri, but those trying to make a MMH, in your assertion, should be required to protect their recipes and prevent manufacture done by outsiders.  I said this was acceptable, if clans had to do it too.  You then changed the premise over to trade secrets or secret ingredients, which I then pointed out in my post, that such was not the same thing.  You then called me off-premise and told me to bring it here.  

The entire point was that items should be treated in roughly the same way, from what I was reading...whether that required workarounds or whatnot, but in some way, there was a double standard applied.  Even in the case that we bring back the power scale, that a major merchant house is -infinitely more capable than an MMH-, that still leaves it to be explained; why are they not forced to go around and eliminate those who would compete?  Why is there a noticeable gap between 'salarri grade' and knockoffs enforced by code, that is not subject to the MMH's prime product, designed by them for a specific task?

Me personally...remove the clan protection from everything, and make it every merchant's concern that their goods will be surrounded by knockoffs.  Give hired assassins more to do.

Edit:  Meh, quotes suck.

[Taven]

...I'm really confused.  The original premise, the part that I was replying to, was about protected status of items from a MMH perspective versus existing-clan perspective.  The difference being, a Salarri item cannot be made by a non-salarri, but those trying to make a MMH, in your assertion, should be required to protect their recipes and prevent manufacture done by outsiders.  I said this was acceptable, if clans had to do it too.  You then changed the premise over to trade secrets or secret ingredients, which I then pointed out in my post, that such was not the same thing.  You then called me off-premise and told me to bring it here.

The progression was this:

• Desertman wants clan status to protect MC'd goods at the shop keeper level
• I counter by saying you can use multi-level crafts by making a base ingredient/technique to build into crafts. Additionally, I say it could generate plots to discover the secret core technique.
• Desertman says that it is OOC that people need to get an item to make something
• (You say that the multi-level craft protect is sensible as long as it is applied to other coded clans/groups as a requirement)
  
• I say that it's OOC that clan-items are more protected, but trying to get a secret technique to make something is IC
• You say that what I am trying to compare is not related at all
• I reiterate my point that discovering a secret technique is IC, and could be applied to Clan items, but Clan items have special coded status

The discussion of what makes a clan item a coded clan item, and if other clans should have adjustments to how their items exist, is separate from MMHs/player-created clans. It connects into it, of course, in terms of the clan status of Shopkeepers, but the actual broader scope is its own thread. Hence why I made this one.

The entire point was that items should be treated in roughly the same way, from what I was reading...whether that required workarounds or whatnot, but in some way, there was a double standard applied.  Even in the case that we bring back the power scale, that a major merchant house is -infinitely more capable than an MMH-, that still leaves it to be explained; why are they not forced to go around and eliminate those who would compete?  Why is there a noticeable gap between 'salarri grade' and knockoffs enforced by code, that is not subject to the MMH's prime product, designed by them for a specific task?

Me personally...remove the clan protection from everything, and make it every merchant's concern that their goods will be surrounded by knockoffs.  Give hired assassins more to do.

That's where this thread connects in. What makes an item something that SHOULD be codedly protected?

Because right now, yes, there's a lot of stuff that is made by a GMH that may not have special unique traits of that GMH. Basic standard items that aren't particularly special or don't have a particular craft secret to them.

[Armaddict]

Ahhh, I see.  I still disagree with the correlation, though.

The day that it is codedly possible to discern Kadius's secret, and thus organize an acquisition of said information and disseminate it into the world, is when I will say they are actually equitable.  In IC terms, but in terms of how items are treated in the game.  Right now there is an OOC difference of treatment with no real explanation, which is, again, the point of this derail, in which case my opinion remains as I originally stated:

Remove the coded protection, because it -doesn't- make sense unless every clan/group is receiving it as a virtual representation of the skill/politics/whatever in making it.  Salarri metal working and things like that, which require said secret that is not discoverable and implementable via IC and OOC means, could remain protected.

So in terms of how mechanics work, those are the two options I see as far as fixing what is indeed a problem (which you recognize through acknowledging that it requires a workaround, which may work temporarily); remove it for everyone, or implement it for everyone.  The latter would be far harder to do.

[Taven]

Remove the coded protection, because it -doesn't- make sense unless every clan/group is receiving it as a virtual representation of the skill/politics/whatever in making it.  Salarri metal working and things like that, which require said secret that is not discoverable and implementable via IC and OOC means, could remain protected.

And I guess that's part of the question. WHY are items coded as clan items?

Is it because of the IC skill required to make something? You could make an argument that Kadius and Salarr have been doing this for King's Ages. Because they've been doing it for such an unfathomably long amount of time, their weapons/clothing is just inherently better. Salarr blades inherently have a better balance, Kadian shirts just have a better weave. However, that leaves questions about items that are not particularly remarkable. Are they still benefitting from this special "skill"? Or are there some items that should be more open?

Does it represent the IC influence that the organization has? Somehow, is it connected to the influence that a GMH (or whatever) has to ward off other people making their items? This is an argument I don't really like. Because... If it's an IC level of influence, shouldn't you have repercussions ICly for if you make it, rather then being OOCly prevented?

Is it an OOC bit of coded that better facilitates clan life? Perhaps it's something OOCly designed to make clan life or superiority of the GMH a reality in the world. Thus, helping it to better focus and unite players for plots, giving an organization a distinct flavor, etc etc.

Is it something else entirely? There could be other reasons not on this list. Readers can brainstorm!


Personally, I think it's probably a mix of IC skill and benefits, and OOC facilitation.

So in terms of how mechanics work, those are the two options I see as far as fixing what is indeed a problem (which you recognize through acknowledging that it requires a workaround, which may work temporarily); remove it for everyone, or implement it for everyone.  The latter would be far harder to do.

Remove the workaround for everyone or implement it for everyone?

I agree, changing the way things work to build in multiple-level crafts for GMH is not something that could be easily done. Further, I think it presents a problem if applied to the game at large: People would use information from old PCs to continue to make the items.

If someone did this for a few MMH items, it would be immediately noticeable to staff. If someone was doing this with Salarri or Kadian items, since they have some 3k of them, it might not be. It would essentially gut the ability of the GMH to have anything unique, because of OOC knowledge.

Ultimately, I think the Shopkeeper status for MMH is a level that is intended to show that they can make crafts that require unique skills. I would assume (though can't say for sure) that when they got to full MMH, they would be able to adjust old items back. (Though that's getting back to the MMH discussion)

[Armaddict]

Sorry.  I type quickly in flow-of-thought-type of style, which means I often come across unclear.

I mean remove the coded protection from all except for those items in Major Merchant Houses that apply to that 'intermediate step' that you describe; i.e. Metalsmithing.  Super-intricate gem-cutting.  A training method that is not something that can be 'figured out' without exceptional ingenuity, which would require staff consent and implementation.

However...

Is it because of the IC skill required to make something?

If the assertion here is that the most skilled only belong in clans, I can't really refute that, but I find it highly unlikely, given that even the simplest objects are often protected.

Does it represent the IC influence that the organization has?

As noted, this could be possible, but it would be far more sensible given the premise of the game as whole that such influence -actually- be used and have the chance to be denied unless politicking was concerned; the idea that it's an automatic blockade to prevents even the chance of a knockoff is both gameplay limiting and unreasonable.

Is it an OOC bit of coded that better facilitates clan life?

I believe such was the original intent, but that was also before the implementation of player-created clans.  To say that it's a boon just because, for these guys, to funnel them that way, then just tell players to 'deal with it' on the equivalent front is...not exactly the best message to be sending as far as all the efforts made to help players out in this process, which is constantly iterated.  So if this is what it is, as I suspect it is, it leads up to what I say should be done, as above....

Just remove the coded protection on items as a whole, save for those that fit the criteria of 'There is -no way- for an out-of-house-crafter to learn how to make this' (which is a pretty high bar), and make all mercantile groups bear the same concern that those on this MMH path are currently the only ones concerned about; their goods being poached.  Major Merchant Houses, obviously, will have more influence to deal with such things.  Selling their items as their own, once discovered, will result in bad things most of the time.  But it will provide them with more to do that makes sense, and granted coded equality as far as mechanics of the game.

As is, in my head that's a pretty clear and rational progression, but I'm left asking the question of whether or not the current set up -adds- anything that would be a terrible thing to take away from the game?

[Taven]

I mean remove the coded protection from all except for those items in Major Merchant Houses that apply to that 'intermediate step' that you describe; i.e. Metalsmithing.  Super-intricate gem-cutting.  A training method that is not something that can be 'figured out' without exceptional ingenuity, which would require staff consent and implementation.

However...

Is it because of the IC skill required to make something?

If the assertion here is that the most skilled only belong in clans, I can't really refute that, but I find it highly unlikely, given that even the simplest objects are often protected.

It was more an exploration then an assertion, a possible reason why it could be the way that it is. I think that if this is the sole reason for why the items are protected, then there are some items that don't really make sense to have coded protection. They're basic items. However, I also think it's possible that some items that aren't SUPER SECRET could have protection too, just to represent a higher level of advanced crafting. I guess it just depends on where the line is drawn.

In terms of coded changes, one option would be to make things LOOK similar, but have small differences (depending on the item). So, yes, your noble could buy a knock-off Kadian shirt, but it might not be as good as the real thing. Someone with a familiarity with crafting styles would be able to tell the difference. This could make for a neat sub-plot. I'm not sure if it could be applied to the whole item base, because the amount of work involved would be staggering.

Does it represent the IC influence that the organization has?

As noted, this could be possible, but it would be far more sensible given the premise of the game as whole that such influence -actually- be used and have the chance to be denied unless politicking was concerned; the idea that it's an automatic blockade to prevents even the chance of a knockoff is both gameplay limiting and unreasonable.

Yes, I agree with this. If the sole reason that things are codedly protected is representing IC influence, then they should not be codedly protected. You should be able to replicate things and deal with the IC consequences. It could generate a lot of plots as well, as GMH try to assert their power.

Is it an OOC bit of coded that better facilitates clan life?

I believe such was the original intent, but that was also before the implementation of player-created clans.  To say that it's a boon just because, for these guys, to funnel them that way, then just tell players to 'deal with it' on the equivalent front is...not exactly the best message to be sending as far as all the efforts made to help players out in this process, which is constantly iterated.  So if this is what it is, as I suspect it is, it leads up to what I say should be done, as above....

Personally, if the reasoning is OOC facilitation, then I don't see it as something that is completely seperate from IC. I think it represents someone further down the line.

An MMH at a shopkeeper level is providing they can keep their designs secure and safe. When they get to actual MMH level, I think they get to benefit from this same level of coded protection. The GMHs of the world, if you will, already went through the shopkeeper phase. At least, that's how it makes sense to me.

Just remove the coded protection on items as a whole, save for those that fit the criteria of 'There is -no way- for an out-of-house-crafter to learn how to make this' (which is a pretty high bar), and make all mercantile groups bear the same concern that those on this MMH path are currently the only ones concerned about; their goods being poached.  Major Merchant Houses, obviously, will have more influence to deal with such things.  Selling their items as their own, once discovered, will result in bad things most of the time.  But it will provide them with more to do that makes sense, and granted coded equality as far as mechanics of the game.

As is, in my head that's a pretty clear and rational progression, but I'm left asking the question of whether or not the current set up -adds- anything that would be a terrible thing to take away from the game?

I'm all for some attempts to try to poach items. I don't think that blanket removing coded protection from all except the very high-level items is the way to do it. I think it would threaten the playability of GMH, as I already outlined in my previous post, with the use of item-making information across multiple characters in a way that would make it nearly impossible to shut anything down, among other things.

[Kankfly]

Whenever I use the value skill on an item that is clan-specified,  even if it's as simple as a, let's say, simple bone dagger, I translate it as a branded item.

So for example, if there are two daggers that looks exactly the same - a simple bone dagger, but one is labeled as Salarr, the other isn't, then obviously, the Salarr one is more superior. There may be no -coded- advantage, but I'd argue that the Salarr dagger has a finer edge, a better balance, simply because it's Salarri made.

I think it's the same for RL. If you get a simple white shirt from a major brand, like Gucci, and then you get a simple white shirt from a random stall by the road, there's going to be a difference. Even if the materials are the same, as well as the style, I'd probably think the shirt is a rip-off from Gucci - because brand - and will probably be inclined to buy that shirt instead of the other shirt (if I'm rich and don't mind spending the money).

That said, there might be a better way to go about this. The above example I'm refering to is virtual, and RPed out, and not at all coded.

[Armaddict]

Quote
Just remove the coded protection on items as a whole, save for those that fit the criteria of 'There is -no way- for an out-of-house-crafter to learn how to make this' (which is a pretty high bar), and make all mercantile groups bear the same concern that those on this MMH path are currently the only ones concerned about; their goods being poached.  Major Merchant Houses, obviously, will have more influence to deal with such things.  Selling their items as their own, once discovered, will result in bad things most of the time.  But it will provide them with more to do that makes sense, and granted coded equality as far as mechanics of the game.

As is, in my head that's a pretty clear and rational progression, but I'm left asking the question of whether or not the current set up -adds- anything that would be a terrible thing to take away from the game?

I'm all for some attempts to try to poach items. I don't think that blanket removing coded protection from all except the very high-level items is the way to do it. I think it would threaten the playability of GMH, as I already outlined in my previous post, with the use of item-making information across multiple characters in a way that would make it nearly impossible to shut anything down, among other things.

This is what troubles me about that path you're on, though.  You're basically saying we should limit the playability of the process that was created just for this functionality in the same way, but not make the groups that ARE capable of dealing with it more readily not have to worry about it.  From a broad view, it's far more exciting and industrious to put that on equal playing field as far as code goes, and let the roleplay deal with pointing out which group is vastly superior.

It simply does not make sense.  It did -before- we had to worry about this, but the introduction of these sort of features on the surface of the ball of yarn always mean that there are tweaks needed on the -inside- of the ball of yarn as well; you can't just lay on layers and expect everything to stay where it's needed.  We introduced a way for mastercrafts to be associated with a brand name of your own, the same as in other clans, but gave it none of the protections.  To say that it should stay as is because it makes GMH's irrelevant is quite a bit of a stretch, considering the rest of the same discussion at hand.  Sure, other people will be able to make those items now, but it will now be on par with what should be expected if you do the same thing to a MMH-to-be...only on a vastly different scale that is far more global.  This gives PC's more to do, engages conflict, and makes the indie-game in relation to clans far more interesting.

Again, the other alternative is to go through the concept of affording the same sort of trait for MMH items, but absence of any action and calling it good as is...is actually pretty irresponsible, as far as game management.  In any other game, if there were these shops with items that could not be made, but then you, the player, were given the ability to make your own items for your own clan, but they were not afforded those protections...remove all other boons associated, and ask if you would go through the trouble of maintaining the setup you'd made, which costs you time and money, so that people used your items to make their own money by undercutting you.  This is purely a mechanical issue, and there are all sorts of different interpretations that can be made, but that's really going out of your way to try and explain something that is, at the root, just refusing to change something that was put in before it made into something that should be changed.

There's no real reason not to change it.  It doesn't weaken the position of GMH's, it strengthens it as far as a player-motivation perspective.  Get in there, get your crew ready to do some business.  If you don't have a crew, you'll need one, because you've been placed in charge of acquisitions and investigations.  Again, the only reason it is this way is because it was put in before this problem was even capable of existing.

Reiterating, again, I think this is less an issue of it being 'as it should be', because that's inaccurate; it's current state is not in making actual knockoffs, either.  These are items, some of them simple, some more advanced, but none of them beyond common-sense reverse engineering by someone with any know-how.  If we need to keep things singular to the major merchant houses, I say make that one of their goals, not a barrier afforded only to some people of the game for abstract reasoning that essentially cuts -out- content from the role rather than adding to it, which is the protection of their monopoly.

[Taven]

This is what troubles me about that path you're on, though.  You're basically saying we should limit the playability of the process that was created just for this functionality in the same way, but not make the groups that ARE capable of dealing with it more readily not have to worry about it.  From a broad view, it's far more exciting and industrious to put that on equal playing field as far as code goes, and let the roleplay deal with pointing out which group is vastly superior.

No, I'm saying that I think the GMH had to worry about it more in the distant past, but since they have solidified their stance over multiple King's Ages, they're past that point.

A would-be MMH at the Shopkeeper level is not at that point yet, but when they reach full MMH, they have accomplished coded protection. At least, that's what makes sense to me if we don't make any changes.

It simply does not make sense.  It did -before- we had to worry about this, but the introduction of these sort of features on the surface of the ball of yarn always mean that there are tweaks needed on the -inside- of the ball of yarn as well; you can't just lay on layers and expect everything to stay where it's needed.  We introduced a way for mastercrafts to be associated with a brand name of your own, the same as in other clans, but gave it none of the protections.  To say that it should stay as is because it makes GMH's irrelevant is quite a bit of a stretch, considering the rest of the same discussion at hand.  Sure, other people will be able to make those items now, but it will now be on par with what should be expected if you do the same thing to a MMH-to-be...only on a vastly different scale that is far more global.  This gives PC's more to do, engages conflict, and makes the indie-game in relation to clans far more interesting.

I think you'll notice that I'm not against some changes. I am against making some 90% of GMH items craftable. Where we're varying is the extent that things should be adjusted. Because yes, some availability of items could be more realistic, allow for more conflict, and enhance the experience. I said this before. However, making all items that way would undermine GMH playability. It's balance.

Again, the other alternative is to go through the concept of affording the same sort of trait for MMH items, but absence of any action and calling it good as is...is actually pretty irresponsible, as far as game management.  In any other game, if there were these shops with items that could not be made, but then you, the player, were given the ability to make your own items for your own clan, but they were not afforded those protections...remove all other boons associated, and ask if you would go through the trouble of maintaining the setup you'd made, which costs you time and money, so that people used your items to make their own money by undercutting you.  This is purely a mechanical issue, and there are all sorts of different interpretations that can be made, but that's really going out of your way to try and explain something that is, at the root, just refusing to change something that was put in before it made into something that should be changed.

I think it's a mix of IC and OOC reasons, as previously stated. As previously stated, I am also not opposed to some changes.

There's no real reason not to change it.  It doesn't weaken the position of GMH's, it strengthens it as far as a player-motivation perspective.  Get in there, get your crew ready to do some business.  If you don't have a crew, you'll need one, because you've been placed in charge of acquisitions and investigations.  Again, the only reason it is this way is because it was put in before this problem was even capable of existing.

Well, actually, I think there's a good argument against changing all items to be openly craftable. It would take a massive amount of time. We're talking about adjusting multiple thousands of items, one at a time. Some don't even have recipes at all yet for their own clans, never mind being accessible to the general public.

I think that making ALL clan items craftable (massive time commitments aside) would cause issues for GMHs. I've already said some of the reasons why, though.

Reiterating, again, I think this is less an issue of it being 'as it should be', because that's inaccurate; it's current state is not in making actual knockoffs, either.  These are items, some of them simple, some more advanced, but none of them beyond common-sense reverse engineering by someone with any know-how.  If we need to keep things singular to the major merchant houses, I say make that one of their goals, not a barrier afforded only to some people of the game for abstract reasoning that essentially cuts -out- content from the role rather than adding to it, which is the protection of their monopoly.

Well, it depends on the item.

Because you could currently arguably put in the time and the effort to make a clan-only item, role-play it out, and steal the recipe. It would just require the use of an MC slot, just like any new item does. And approval by staff, of course.

[Armaddict]

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree, otherwise this will be very cyclical when you use replies like:

I think it's a mix of IC and OOC reasons, as previously stated.

as a reply to me addressing your mix of IC and OOC reasons.


I, too, never said 100% of items; I said items that did not require super-secret-development-tool-of-major-merchant-house-that-has-been-developed-over-hundreds-of-years-with-many-dashes.

I had no problems with said barriers until it was brought up in that other discussion, in which case it became a 'Yeah, that -doesn't- make any sense!  That -is- pretty skewed!'.  Again...I can't justify it in my head; This merchant house got big, therefore their items cannot be crafted and they do not need to spend time investigating other crafters.  However, this group is small, therefore it must devote a legitimate amount of concern in the security of its recipes to the point that they should devote time to MC workarounds to deal with the problem that exists that I acknowledge exists but would rather justify via going out of the norms of comparison to insist it is, in actuality, true in the game world.  Because no one will ever make an item like those.  They will only replicate player mastercrafts.  

To be honest, that even sounds like a reversal of the case, given the number of instances allowed to recreate a Salarri item versus joe shmoe's custom shop.  The number of items out there to copy is just so drastically different, and so much more spread out.

Edit here to remove a bit about time consumption of undoing the flags, because I can't really say how the database works, but it -shouldn't- be a clunky affair from what I know.

[valeria]

I think it's an OOC construct, period.  I think you can stretch logic to explain it IC, but in most cases coded crafting protection exists to keep certain clans relevant.  It always come back to "well it's a special technique with these tools (that no player can ever access or actually needs to craft the item and can't replicate even after they leave the House and that can never be figured out through espionage)."  To imagine that a merchant house has kept techniques locked down tighter than the recipe to Coca Cola in a world with supernatural spying is... difficult for me to accept, at best.

I don't think it's a bad thing.  I just think it's one of those things that isn't strictly IC.

[Desertman]

I think it's an OOC construct, period.

Truth.

All you have to do is look at this situation.

Your independent CAN craft, "A pair of fancy, amber-tassled leather shoes.", because it is not a coded clan item.
Your independent CAN'T craft, "A pair of simple leather shoes with no ornamentation.", because it is a coded Kadius clan item.

There is nothing special about the second pair of shoes. It is literally noted as NOT being special in any way. In fact, many House clan-coded items are noted as being kind of crappy so that they are selling things every class can afford at some level.

The ONLY reason you can't craft them is an OOC reason. That's it. That's as far as it goes.

There is no special needle. There is no "forgotten stitching method". There is nothing that goes into that basic 19 sid pair of shoes that makes it so that your mastercrafter independent can't figure out how to replicate it. It's an OOC construct in the game for OOC reasons for playability purposes.

The ONLY other argument would be, "The House's influence prevents you from wanting to try and replicate their goods.".

My only rebuttal would be, "Influence is an IC construct, and does not equal psionic mind control. If I can CHOOSE to attack their merchants in the street if I want, I can ALSO choose to make a pair of simple shoes. The only reason I can't is an OOC reason related to the code.".

I don't even see how this is really a question. It seems pretty obvious to me personally.

(Someone may have already made this very obvious point above, I didn't read every post in this thread. My apology if I am rehashing the obvious.)

[valeria]

Even say we fixed that Dman, to where the only codedly MMH items were the very high quality ones, it would still be an OOC construct.

If the coded protection is supposed to represent specialized techniques and tools, you should be able to ICly steal those techniques and tools in order to replicate the items. If it was fully IC, someone with years of Kadius training who stole a diamond-bladed micro saw (or leaned how to craft one and obtained the materials) when they left should be able to start producing cheap knockoffs of fancy-cut gems, with all of the subsequent conflict that would entail. But they can't.

It's just a function of the code. It's one of many things in the game that isn't 100% realistic because we're playing a game.

And I think that's fine.

[Desertman]

Even say we fixed that Dman, to where the only codedly MMH items were the very high quality ones, it would still be an OOC construct.

If the coded protection is supposed to represent specialized techniques and tools, you should be able to ICly steal those techniques and tools in order to replicate the items. If it was fully IC, someone with years of Kadius training who stole a diamond-bladed micro saw (or leaned how to craft one and obtained the materials) when they left should be able to start producing cheap knockoffs of fancy-cut gems, with all of the subsequent conflict that would entail. But they can't.

It's just a function of the code. It's one of many things in the game that isn't 100% realistic because we're playing a game.

And I think that's fine.

Agreed.

There are some things that have no realistic IC reason and exist because, "It's a game.", and I'm also absolutely fine with that.

This is one of those things.

[Lizzie]

My thoughts on how to rationalize it ICly (it's actually a suggestion for improvement):

If it's clan-make only, then it has to have an actual clan brand on it somewhere, either in the mdesc or the sdesc (or both). Once it has that brand, its value will be *required* to be at least 25% higher than the exact same thing without the clan brand. That would be up to the staff to code.

So you could very well have two identical simple bone daggers. But one of them would have "A tiny stamp of the Salarr shield embossed in a golden hue is imprinted into the handle." on the end of the mdesc. If the first one is 100 sids, the Salarr version would be 125 sids. ALL NPC merchants would recognize this difference and ALL would price accordingly.

[650Booger]

sorry if this sentiment has already been posted...  I like to think of MMH MC'd items as having been made with secret techniques and ingrediants that nobody else has learned.  Sure anybody can make a pair of leather boots, but only Salarr crafters know the trick of treating and stressing the leather in just such a way, at just this temperature and humidity, to make it supremely supple.  and nobody else has figured out how to reproduce their triple over-and-under cross stitching that binds the heel to the sole in such an amazingly comfortable way.  stuff like that.

[Taven]

I think it's an OOC construct, period.  I think you can stretch logic to explain it IC, but in most cases coded crafting protection exists to keep certain clans relevant.  It always come back to "well it's a special technique with these tools (that no player can ever access or actually needs to craft the item and can't replicate even after they leave the House and that can never be figured out through espionage)."  To imagine that a merchant house has kept techniques locked down tighter than the recipe to Coca Cola in a world with supernatural spying is... difficult for me to accept, at best.

I don't think it's a bad thing.  I just think it's one of those things that isn't strictly IC.

You're right that not all clan items have a secret technique behind them. Some would seem to be fairly ordinary.

But some actually do. In fact, there are even coded tools in the game that are required to make certain clan items, which are carefully guarded by their respective GMHs.

For the tools/tricks that don't exist, I'm sure that if you started a plot surrounding stealing and replicating GMH items, staff would flesh it out further for you. Of course, it would be a long-term plot to accomplish this. But that doesn't mean it's not doable.

For the lower-level items, I agree that it's mostly OOC, to better facilitate people joining, participating in, and buying from those groups.

[Doublepalli]

There -are- house-specific items that are actually codedly better than other items with the same material.

[Lizzie]

There -are- house-specific items that are actually codedly better than other items with the same material.

There are also dozens (maybe hundreds?) of items that are house-specific, that are unimpressive. A loose pair of sandcloth leggings (I'm using a hypothetical because I don't feel like opening up my master list of Kadian stuff) -

They're brown, loose, have a drawstring to tie them to the wearer's waist. They're simply hemmed at the bottom, there's nothing fancy about them, and there's no mark embroidred onto them to indicate they're anything other than just mundane generic loose sandcloth leggings.

And yet - no one can make them unless they're clanned by Kadius.

There are a LOT of items like this. I'd like to see every single one of them have SOMETHING added to them to give the reader a clue as to WHY they are designated, ICly, as a Kadian-only item. Some kind of fancy cross-stitch that Kadius invented, and no one else can do, using a special thread that no one else knows how to spin, used to embroider a tiny mark on the attached draw-string.

Something consistent with the game world, and consistent with the concept of "Kadius-only" so a random non-Kadian crafter might be able to reproduce the item in a master craft - but that master craft would *never* be as valueable in any shop, to any shopkeeper, as the Kadius-only version.

[Jihelu]

A system in which people would have to be taught, using the teach command perhaps?, a recipe to use it and having Kadius holding most of the recipes would be interesting.
Maybe you could receive recipes by analyzing things in detail or having a friend/buying the knowledge from a merchant.

[Lizzie]

A system in which people would have to be taught, using the teach command perhaps?, a recipe to use it and having Kadius holding most of the recipes would be interesting.
Maybe you could receive recipes by analyzing things in detail or having a friend/buying the knowledge from a merchant.

The problem is when the employee gets fired or otherwise "let go" and allowed to live to tell about it - he suddenly is incapable of reproducing house-specific items that he used to be able to make. That's another reason why it's a good idea to incorporate "some specific unique thing that is needed to create a clan-specific item." Certain threads or tools that just flat out can't be used outside the clan property. In fact I'd even go so far as to suggest that clanned members can't even reproduce the products outside the clan compound or the clan's wagon. So no spam-crafting house-specific products in apartment buildings either.

[Jihelu]

My idea would make it so people fired by a merchant house still retain their knowledge of crafts they made in the house, but not the ability to make the house crafts.

Then again, no one in the house would be able to make them without getting the recipes. So if you notice newbie crafter amos is hoarding a bunch of crafting recipes...maybe you should watch his ass carefully.
Idk.


Basics of Jihelu's dumb idea:
If you were employed by say, Kadius, you'd have to go to a npc and be like
Discuss npc recipes.
And he'll list all this crazy shit out.
Trying to learn one you already know is like "you already know this shit pick another one"
Picking one you don't know has you learn it or something.
Maybe even make this rank dependent on the house. "I can't teach you this, talk to your boss" So wanna be merchants don't rush to Kadius/Salaar, learn everything, then fuck off.

It would also put more stress on "We just fired this guy, do we kill him or threaten him so he doesn't sell our own shit?"

[Riev]

With tools being "usable" and "breakable" now, I'd think a decent number of "flagged clan-only crafts" could be loosened a bit to requiring "clan-made tools" instead. Salarr leatherworking techniques probably have evolved to the point that they use their own tool that makes the process not "easier" but in fact "possible". Guarding the secrets of the recipes AND the secrets of the tools would give two lanes of interaction.

On an OOC perspective, it would allow some intrigue and better watching of ex-Kadian crafters who they suspect may have smuggled out some tools for their friends, etc.

I'd much rather be able to make that "studded leather armor but by Salarr" armor, on any PC that learned the recipe AND has the tools, than to have been in a position to make one before but, without being clanned, lose the information. Instead, I lose access to the tools, and have to convince people to bring them to me.


However, to more fully answer the main question at  hand; I would say that specific techniques and recipes make a CLAN item. If you're in a MMH and you have something you want to make? Emulate the GMH. Come up with a new wood finish that strengthens the wood after firing, that all your tent-poles use to make them more sturdy. Instead of "a long pole" you now need "a long, wood-fired pole". Other people might recognize they need that from Analyze, but only you know what goes into making that pole... a fire, a long pole, and your secret recipe that is made from like... cunyati nuts and scrab guts.

Salarr would pay your MMH booku bucks just to learn the secrets of your recipe. INTRIGUE.