Ideas to make life in the wilds more wild

[Lizzie]

Most of these actually seem geared mainly towards making desert elf life easier since that is who would likely utilize most of this on a regular basis.

Desert elves have coded encampments they can store stuff in, so I'm not seeing how any of these ideas would benefit them, any more than they'd benefit anyone else. In fact I'd say it'd benefit them less, because they'd have less frequent use of the ideas.

Similarly, coded encampments for the coded human tribes.

I'd say this would benefit pretty much everyone else, and make it easier for everyone else to play LIKE a coded desert elf or Arabet, without having to actually BE a desert elf or Arabet. Because of this, I don't really like the idea all that much.

We have the means for players to play "wilderness characters" already.

If you're a city-based character, you shouldn't feel any need to store your stuff in a tent in the Tablelands. You have an apartment - and in fact you could theoretically have up to three apartments - one in Nak, one in Luir's, and one in Red Storm. If you have enough stuff that you -can't- carry it all around, then you obviously don't need to go out hunting anymore and should be spending the bulk of your time unloading it.

If you're a wilderness-based character, you are probably already an Al Seik, or a Sun Runner, and you can store whatever you like in your encampment. If you want to be from some non-coded tribe (as a non-elf, since elves MUST be in coded tribes to be wilderness based), you always have the option of NOT stockpiling stuff and only carrying around the week's "take" to craft and/or sell off in trading areas. If you choose not to do that, you can STILL rent an apartment in any of these trading areas, so you have a place to store stuff.

Now that food decays after awhile, you really have no reason to store stuff outside the city anyway.

[Desertman]

Most of these actually seem geared mainly towards making desert elf life easier since that is who would likely utilize most of this on a regular basis.

Desert elves have coded encampments they can store stuff in, so I'm not seeing how any of these ideas would benefit them, any more than they'd benefit anyone else. In fact I'd say it'd benefit them less, because they'd have less frequent use of the ideas.

Similarly, coded encampments for the coded human tribes.

I'd say this would benefit pretty much everyone else, and make it easier for everyone else to play LIKE a coded desert elf or Arabet, without having to actually BE a desert elf or Arabet. Because of this, I don't really like the idea all that much.

We have the means for players to play "wilderness characters" already.

If you're a city-based character, you shouldn't feel any need to store your stuff in a tent in the Tablelands. You have an apartment - and in fact you could theoretically have up to three apartments - one in Nak, one in Luir's, and one in Red Storm. If you have enough stuff that you -can't- carry it all around, then you obviously don't need to go out hunting anymore and should be spending the bulk of your time unloading it.

If you're a wilderness-based character, you are probably already an Al Seik, or a Sun Runner, and you can store whatever you like in your encampment. If you want to be from some non-coded tribe (as a non-elf, since elves MUST be in coded tribes to be wilderness based), you always have the option of NOT stockpiling stuff and only carrying around the week's "take" to craft and/or sell off in trading areas. If you choose not to do that, you can STILL rent an apartment in any of these trading areas, so you have a place to store stuff.

Now that food decays after awhile, you really have no reason to store stuff outside the city anyway.

Whatever you say. That's not how I play them.

[nauta]

Re: Lizzie.

Yeah, that's basically it.  I'd like to articulate a niche that is there in concept but codedly rather unfeasible for a wilds-based character that is not one of the coded (d-elf or human tribes).  I understand the arguments against non-coded desert elves (basically: potential for abuse), so the focus really is on humans -- concepts such as a feral child, a woodsman, a nomad, and so on.

One thing to highlight is that coded encampments (a) have massive storage facilities and (b) NPC guards.  The niche I'm trying to carve out isn't that -- playing a coded tribe is a lot of fun, but what I'm shooting for is something different.  I want to be able to play someone who does not rent an apartment in the cities but isn't just an adventurer/wanderer.  Sure it'd be tough: you'd have PC raiders (NPC raiders maybe), NPC mobs to navigate, water to find and trade for, weather to deal with, and so on.  These are all IC dangers and IC difficulties.  But making a campfire shouldn't be an IC difficulty.

Another way to put it: campfires and tents are neat RP props, and it'd be nice to make them less oocly inconvenient so they are more common in the game.  (With tents in particular, I'd like to see more non-restorative minimal-storage tents -- little lean-tos, tarps tossed over rocks, etc.)

[Chettaman]

I've had a couple wild-characters. The secret is finding that place people don't go to very often even if they know it's there. And then you set up tent and arrange everything inside so it looks really lived in. You can even make camp fires /inside/ of tents. (or wait... I know I did it before, but I remember trying it again and it not working so maybe I'm wrong) - I do definitely hate needing three of the same branch and then kindling to make camp fires. - I also hate how difficult tents are to acquire. Well... I guess they're as difficult as MOUNTS. (ic)
it'd be neat if... rangers got like novice tent making skills and the tent they made was like only big enough for two human sized people and one sneaky elf, or maybe four dwarves. (lol)
or maybe rangers begin with a tent?

living in the wild is totally possible, though. You need only live like a wild person to succeed. Being a ranger helps too.

#increasethepriceofmounts

[seidhr]

new thread title: Ideas to make life in the (not as dangerous and wild as we'd like) wilds even less dangerous and wild?

[Delirium]

"Ideas on how to make it OOCly easier to live in the wilds, which will make the wilds more populated, which will make them more dangerous"




... maybe


I'm neutral on pretty much everything here, but you can already set up a tent and live out of it successfully. Until everything gets dumped out and it's stolen from you.

[Desertman]

"Ideas for new thread titles within a thread that could possibly be subject to the subject of the thread in question."

"Campfires and how to bring the heat."

"Tents, the new permanent camp for those who don't have one."

"Shit is too heavy for my elf to carry around."

"Don't let the bad man stomp my cloth hut."

"Tent cities incoming." (Which is actually a pretty cool idea.)

"Hey Seidhr, help me pitch my tent bebe.".  

[Decameron]

Know you said least code intensive but ..

New creatures to hunt / be hunted by.

New resources to gather.

New areas to explore.

I'll touch on each of these a little, starting with new areas. Honestly, I am not much of an explorer. My direction sense is so bad I've had a problem in the past losing characters to the Silt Sea when walking from the Gaj to the Red's Retreat. However, stuff like the legend of Steinal, or past historical locations I won't mention, always encouraged me to try (and fail terrifically) to reach out of the comforts of a City. There was supposedly an Empire according to the history page a long time ago, and finding any traces of that would be / is pretty awesome. Even if the location really possessed little more than a wow factor, it was always sort've those 'I've been playing this game for over 10 years and I am stilling seeing new stuff' sort've feeling. It may not make the wild more 'wild', but it certainly can encourage people to get out there, and the more people out there, I promise the more 'wild' it will get.

New resources to gather, because depending on the rarity of the resource and what it accomplishes IC, this generates wonder and more importantly, conflict. The copper war comes to mind, albeit an extreme example. Imagine being one of the first PCs to stumble upon an ore? First person to find a new poison? Do you covet it and keep it for yourself or integrate it within your own culture and attempt to ride the wave of benefit? How do you protect it from others? Just sort've some scenarios that spring into mind.

Finally, new creatures, and this is sort've the simplest. We all feel relatively confident in knowing what a scrab is capable of. However, the flying fire-kank arriving from the east would probably make even a 100-day warrior shit their pants. It's stepping outside the box of familiarity and being placed completely in the unknown which makes something terrifying (and possibly fun). Familiarity breeds comfort. What were to happen if the next scrab you had spewed acid on you? That raptor just poisoned you? Might be a little more cautious on your next approach, if you had one.

If you feel safer outside the gates of a City then you do within one, there might be an issue (unless you're a mind-bender, sorc, ungemmed, or half-breed .. filthy half-breed). However, I feel the wilderness has to be carefully balanced act of risk / reward. Ultimately, any suggested changes should reflect upon a need to encourage characters to interact with or against one another. I am not an advocate of allowing life to be easier outside the City-States, because if it was, then no one would be in them.

Ultimately, I feel defended cities should need the resources outside of their walls (for various plots, economical reasons, and personal desires) and these established settlements should be a spot of (relative) stability in a very, very dangerous and unknown world.

[Chettaman]

new thread title: Ideas to make life in the (not as dangerous and wild as we'd like) wilds even less dangerous and wild?

New thread title: Intense. Like camping.

** as for the wilds being more ''safe'' than inside the city... Only if you have knowledge of what's going on out there. And that knowledge includes:
A) wild life; how powerful they are, where they are usually, what they're capable of and how they can be escaped or defeated.
B) Raiders; where they frequent and what they're capable of and how they can be escaped or defeated.
C) Thieves; are they more annoying than you'd like if they found you.

all of these things revolve around the question ''Am I prepared to deal with it''?

and - like most of the player base, I've noticed, will never go out unless they are. Which makes sense. I'm not encouraging people to go out unprepared more often. I'm just saying... people are much more prepared to survive in the wilds at any given moment than they actually know. So I call them pansies! I'd rather be too prepared than not prepared also, but ... that's not going to stop me from calling you lot pansies.

I chuckle whenever someone posts something like, "If you're outside the city on foot you're either an elf or a witch." and I hope that's just IC prejudice, but I know it's not. teehee.

****
new creatures are cool. I uh... I still hate spiders. So much. I don't even deal with them. Some other creatures... yeah. I don't even deal with them. While I'm cool with new creatures, I'm almost certain that no one is going to be affected to do any more or less roleplaying in the wilds because of them.
New resources will definitely make the gold diggers come runnin'.
New areas to explore will draw anyone prepared to do so - to do so. And then when they're explored, probably never again. Like it is currently.

[Decameron]

While I'm cool with new creatures, I'm almost certain that no one is going to be affected to do any more or less roleplaying in the wilds because of them.
New areas to explore will draw anyone prepared to do so - to do so. And then when they're explored, probably never again. Like it is currently.

True on both accounts, unless they are linked in with the new resources. You might not want to deal with spiders, but if one of their legs can be ground up in a powder and snorted - making you nigh invincible and the target of every buxom aide in leagues - you still might not want to deal with spiders, but you might want to pay someone to do it for you.

[Desertman]

I would like to see more un-monopolized/un-controlled resources in the wilderness.

Put a resource that's interesting out there, then let the playerbase decide who's going to take control of it and how.

Also let them determine what it is going to be mainly used for.

(By them I don't mean staff sponsored roles using House/staff influence to dictate the direction, because then it just amounts to the exact opposite, more or less, of "player decided". It then becomes "staff decided" via proxy.)

[Jihelu]

I chuckle whenever someone posts something like, "If you're outside the city on foot you're either an elf or a witch." and I hope that's just IC prejudice, but I know it's not. teehee.

^I can confirm that people think that.

[nauta]

"Ideas on how to make it OOCly easier to live in the wilds, which will make the wilds more populated, which will make them more dangerous"

Yeah, this.  In my view, while PC-NPC interaction is pretty exciting (wild), PC-PC interaction is more exciting (wild) -- once you learn where things spawn, dangers in the wilds come from either staff/RPTs or PCs.  Making things less OOC onerous would up the number of PCs that attempt to make their home outside the gates and thus make things ICly more dangerous outside the gates -- not just in terms of direct PC-PC battles, but in other ripple-effect ways: PCs moving NPCs around in unforeseen ways, that ever-present worry that someone (intelligent) might be out there, raiders, and so on.

Mostly I just like camping.  Why should d-elves and witches have all the fun?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

One thing about a desert and sand is that sand shifts. The role of some of the Builder staff positions could be covering and uncovering sites of Interest in the deserts.

[Desertman]

One thing about a desert and sand is that sand shifts. The role of some of the Builder staff positions could be covering and uncovering sites of Interest in the deserts.

In my experience it seems when something like this happens it is almost always geared towards a specific person or group with a mostly predetermined outcome.

I've seen it many times.

On a few occasions I was actually the person/group leader of the group that was "supposed" to run the storyline involving the "thing/place". I'm not complaining. Heck, how can I complain when someone is basically running a "thing" for me/my people.

Still, it always felt more like watching a movie/reading a book with a predetermined outcome and less like playing a video game where I get to make decisions that matter.

Long story short, "Yes to builders uncovering things and places etc, but with less of a predetermined storyline surrounding them.".

Uncover them, then let the playerbase decide who's going to discover them and then who's going to do what in relation to them. Not everything has to be plotted out ahead of time with a focus on, "They are supposed to find it this way. This thing attacks them. Then they will do A, B, or C based on an option given to them. Then the final outcome will be A or B.".

I want to see more, "A thing is here. I have no idea what you are going to do with it. But, it's there if you can find it. Have fun.".

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Open the Dune Stalkers.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I like Decameron's idea about adding resources worth treking for. With the exception of a few beasty shells, there's really nothing that dangerous or rare out in the wastes for people to seek. Why isn't there a deposit of some rare mineral on an island out in the Silt? Or up in the mountains east of Tuluk. Stuff that random breed ranger #3148815 can't simply ride out and get, but requires a mini RPT to seek.

(Fun story; when the imms first announced skimmers and mysterious new resources being added to the Sea of Silt, I wanted a skimmer so that I could be the first (mundane) guy to explore it. So I simply told Kadius that there was a diamond mine on an island out there and they gave me, some random dwarf peasant,  2000 coins on the spot to buy a skimmer. And believe me, they didn't get shit for their investment.)

I also like DMan's idea of using builders to uncover ruins, caves, or canyons through the cliffside. Just put them there. Maybe a rare artifact spawns there 1 time, so the first PC to find it gets an old copper dagger and brings it back to Nak so that n00bles can fight over the rare prestige item, as if there isn't a massive steal dragon over the front gate of the city. Sadly when the imms go through the trouble of creating stuff like this, it's usually feels like there's a rigid game plan in play already, and if it isn't adhered to the plot goes nowhere. HELL, even if the players THOUGHT stuff like this was possible it could spark plots without the need for immtervention. "Con Artist" could actually be a character concept, and not just a subguild no one picks. (See, that dwarf I mentioned earlier.)

As it stands, things rarely change in the game world. And when they DO change, keep your fucking hands off it cause it's for someone else.

[valeria]

I like Decameron's idea about adding resources worth treking for. With the exception of a few beasty shells, there's really nothing that dangerous or rare out in the wastes for people to seek. Why isn't there a deposit of some rare mineral on an island out in the Silt? Or up in the mountains east of Tuluk. Stuff that random breed ranger #3148815 can't simply ride out and get, but requires a mini RPT to seek.

I think with staff having a more granular ability to assign forageable resources, this is a thing we will probably see, especially around GMH play (if we aren't seeing it already).

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Eh, I don't really mean forage per se. As it stands there's very little reason to travel far the sort of "core" areas of the world. You don't need to go terribly far from the city to find the animals, materials, etc. that you need. Which is unfortunate, because there are a lot of interesting places to visit in the far-flung corners of the world. I think the map extends quite a bit further, in almost every direction, than most people will ever bother to travel. There's nothing to find out there, really, but some neat room descs and a bit of cred.


But to get back to the original point about making the desert more habitable; it would be nice if there were more quit/save rooms scattered around the world. Especially mount accessible ones. This might be a little moot now that mages (who traditionally comprise like 95% of all desert-living hermits) can be guild_ranger. I think a few years back the imms scrubbed out a bunch of desert quit/save rooms in one of their ever-encroaching attempts to "consolidate the player base." So a lot of good, inhabitable caves, wrecked structures, etc. went out the window. These were never really "safe" places because everyone knew where they were, but they were viable options. Now-a-days you would have to to the aforementioned edges of the map to find a half-way secluded quit/save spot. The trip from there back to civilization would probably take a good IG day, barring foul magickz. So it's not really RP inducive unless you really like solo-emoting.


The other thing I would like to see more of is signs of humanity. Ever since the tribal accent was moved to character gen, rather than being exclusive to an otherwise fairly uesless subguild, we've had TONS of non-clanned tribals. If you add all those backgrounds together, there are litterally thousands of virtual tribes in the world. If you're not from a specific tribe and are just generally nomadic, then chances are that your background says something like "s/he grew up migrating from outpost to outpost." Which seems like a reasonable statement to make in the context of an entire world. But really, reading that as a player, I'm like "There are three outposts. Four if you count Cenyr."  A few more villages, outposts, and tent-cities might be a welcome add. This is another thing that has downsized overtime with (RIP Menos, Taki, Red Storm East, and probably a number of Kadian camps as well. :p )

I'm not really holding my breath for any of this to happen though, with the mantra of "Condense, condense, condense!"

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Open the Dune Stalkers.

To expand on this sentiment, the desert is notably lacking in, well, desert elves. There are only two tribes open currently, and they are both territorial to the same region. You don't see any Sun Runners because they all died of dehydration hundreds of years ago (har har), and you don't see any SLK because they can't leave the Pah and don't have any reason to. While I'm okay with that in and of itself, it leaves the other 80% of the desert basically devoid of desert elves.

Opening the Dune Stalkers, or some other raider-like tribe of Desert Elves fills both the need for players to represent the virtual world, and raiders! Yeah, we could stand to have some more raiders to drive low-level conflict and help make the desert the dangerous place that it's supposed to be.

[Armaddict]

But to get back to the original point about making the desert more habitable

When I read this thread title I was interested.  I've always wanted the Zalanthan Desert to be a survivalist scenario.  Tribes are only thriving out there because of lots of adaptation on their part over time living with the conditions, not because the conditions are easy.

Right now, the conditions are relatively easy.  The main method of the desert 'weeding out' those who didn't respect it was taken away when more dangerous beasties were strongly discouraged by code to hunting for prey closer to cities.  When this code went in, it was because of the rationale that big bad beasties would avoid civilization, but that kinda took out the dynamic that differs for maneating lions and anything else that will willingly hunt man; they will linger closer to where their prey is.  But this, really, is not the point, so much as reiterating that the desert in it's current form is already -survivable- with relative ease (relative; keep that word in mind before you start ripping into me for wanting things to be hard, I'm comparing to the world I played in that -forced- you to be on your toes out there, all the time).

Making it more -habitable- is a directive of my survivalist desires for the desert, but not in the ways this thread is talking about.  I don't want joe blow to decide to take a three week trip into the desert and find himself more than capable.  But I do want grizzled hunter who spends more time out in the desert than out in the city to be able to set up something semi-permanent, not as a way to make a mark or ripple in the world, but because such small modifications are -necessary to inhabiting the desert-.  Shelter from storms.  Shelter from beasts.  Fire.  Water and water treatment.  There are lots of little things that can be added in that are not currently supported.

So there seems to be a very disagreeable trend of the posts towards making it -easier- to survive out in the desert; that's opposite direction of where it needs to go.  However, while difficult, we also need the code to allow for those desert-survival modifications that allows a small group to actually play out there, rather than being dependent on bringing things in daily from cities.

Altogether, I disagree that more of the game should take place out in the wilds.  But I think the code should allow it.  And it should be -hard-.  If you watch survivalist tv shows, or reality shows or documentaries about life where there is still a 'frontier', it's all about things, even in modern day, that some of these ideas presented don't take into account, at all.

The tl;dr?  I am in support of code that portrays, exemplifies, and makes possible the struggle of living fully in the desert, as opposed to the current model of living in cities and going out in the desert often.  I am fully, utterly, and completely against any idea that is not necessary to make that struggle possible, particularly the ones that seem more oriented around the desert being made more forgiving to accommodate more people wanting to live in it.

Edit:
A lot more of this thread is also geared towards 'We should make the wilderness more fun.' This is what I'm gearing myself towards answering to; I already see more and more of the population of the game wanting more time outside the city.  I think the shift away from city-based play is part of why a lot of people are feeling less satisfaction with the game.  The wilderness is danger, not lackadaisical fun.  It should be a personal Halaster RPT...where you enjoy the shit out of it, but you're constantly waiting for something to jump out and bite you and take your character away from you.  Expanding the 'niceness' of the city into the wilds is pretty...against the chosen themes of history, culture, and theme of the game.  The desert is death for most, which is why the cities are such a blessing to everyone...and why they stay wrapped up under the God-King's iron fists.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

There is (or was) a tent camp that would move from location to location. This was a cool thing.

Make ten more camps or tiny villages just like this, and just give them sparse backstories. They don't have to move, but, they should each offer something unique to them which gives somebody a reason to go there once in a while. This village sells this particular set of armor. This camp sells whiskey that is twice as potent as anything anyone makes, but there's only one barrel available randomly. This village makes dye in colors not seen before. This trading post sells isilt decorations for your house. That village offers bounties on anakore.

Each should be non-hostile but militant enough to defend themselves, each should have their NPCs fully scripted so that one can learn about the tribe, and they should be spread out throughout the world.

They should just exist. They aren't part of a running story. They aren't some adversary. You can't live there, aside from maybe quitting out in their inn or main square, or maybe being able to stable your mount. They aren't something huge. Three rooms here. Five there. Two here. These don't take away from the centers of civilization. They are just ... atmosphere.

[Lizzie]

The tent camps that moved around are coded tribal camps. They're still around, and you can live in one if you're a member of one of those coded tribes. The save rooms are in the coded tents within those coded camps, and you have to be a member of the tribe to get past the guard. There are NPCs who are also members of the tribe walking around in each of them.

As for semi-permanent homes to make it more possible for non-clanned outdoorsy types to live - there are caves all over the game that have (or are) save rooms and quit-safe rooms. I've had characters live in some of them for varying periods of time. But just as with ANY contained area that lacks NPC guards and locked doors: you have to accept that when you log back in, you might discover you're now sharing that space with someone else. Or your stuff is missing. It's one of the risks you take when you choose to play Wilderness Hermit Bob.