I'm not applying for that Borsail role, but if I were...

[valeria]

There is high level intrigue shit that goes on and actually affecting the game.  ...  there is a lot going on up there that you are simply unaware of.

These two statements seem directly in contradiction of one another to me. Intrigue isn't what I'd call highly "game affecting". By it's very nature it's secretive and non-inclusive. Sure, it might affect political structures (which 90% of PCs aren't part of), but I don't think it has a large day to day impact on the general population at all.

Maybe it's not for you (and if your goal is to make Borsail/Tor into a combat clan when staff isn't ready for it yet, it's probably not).  And that's fine.  It takes all sorts in the game.  But please don't disparage the work of other people when you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

That's fair, and I apologize that my tongue in cheek got a bit too bitter and barby.

I think from the commoner side, people seeing a lot of effects and don't necessarily draw lines to the causes.  But when you were involved in the causes, you can see the effects and go "oh yeah, that thing I did with that noble totally affected X."

Anyway, I'm sorry I got a snappish as well.  I was feeling a little insulted.  All is forgiven 

[wizturbo]

Btw there has been more than one arena event a year. I've seen at least 15 in the last year.

If people are interested in playing Gladiators you absolutely have an opportunity and support.  I don't want to share IC info, but there are people in powerful position who will support you (while trying to kill you for sport ...heh)

[BadSkeelz]

The problem is no one really wants to play Gladiators (unless its a temporary role that lets them go back to their old PC once they're dead). Just like no one really wants to slaves, despite people saying they're so cool on the GDB.

I think the Allanaki jail cells should just dump you straight in to the arena myself.

[evilcabbage]

surprisingly(un), i do actually "want" to play a gladiator. i love the idea of it.

i will do it one day. you'll see.

[Decameron]

Actually, pay off a Templar (or four) and I bet you can get plenty of people into the arena whether they want to play a gladiator or not.

Andddd you're a criminal ... and you're a criminal ... and you're a criminal..

No one said this had to be voluntary.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

surprisingly(un), i do actually "want" to play a gladiator. i love the idea of it.

i will do it one day. you'll see.

I feel ya dude. I'd give it a go. I enjoy facing death and coming through by the skin of my teeth - nothing makes a character feel more interesting to me. Anybody can git gud in a sparring circle.

[MeTekillot]

Actually, pay off a Templar (or four) and I bet you can get plenty of people into the arena whether they want to play a gladiator or not.

Andddd you're a criminal ... and you're a criminal ... and you're a criminal..

No one said this had to be voluntary.

Staff have pretty much said it's not really IC to harass/murder random commoners on a whim as a noble unless you're a Fale.

[evilcabbage]

i've played a few spar guys, a few non-coms, and i have played dudes who got good -by- fighting the wildlife and risking their lives.

you know what makes me feel better when i look back at my characters?

the ones who survived with 3 hp, the ones who had 20 hp and fled, the ones who came inside the gates with bloodied gear and were near death, because i survived that shit.

even if i had to run.

how amazing it would be, to not HAVE that option, to have to fight something in the arena knowing that i will die if i don't use every skill and ability i have to guarantee a win.

[Lizzie]

i've played a few spar guys, a few non-coms, and i have played dudes who got good -by- fighting the wildlife and risking their lives.

you know what makes me feel better when i look back at my characters?

the ones who survived with 3 hp, the ones who had 20 hp and fled, the ones who came inside the gates with bloodied gear and were near death, because i survived that shit.

even if i had to run.

how amazing it would be, to not HAVE that option, to have to fight something in the arena knowing that i will die if i don't use every skill and ability i have to guarantee a win.

Except if you're playing a gladiator, you will die even if you -do- use every skill and ability you have. No one will guarantee you a win. You could spend a year training JUST to fight in the arena - that would be your reason for existing, your focus, even if you're not a dwarf. You would have no other reason to exist as a PC. And then you finally get to the arena for your first official match - and that entire year of doing little else but training is blown to smithereens when the OTHER guy kills you. It's sort of like Byn training - except, instead of being able to go on less-deadly contracts to start out with, you only get to go on one. And it is a contract that takes you over the shield wall. You'll either survive or you'll die. It's not an option, it's not a choice. It is an inevitable result.

Most players don't want that outcome, even if they're guaranteed the ability to temporarily store their current character and get it back after their gladiator dies. That's why you don't see gladiators on a regular basis in the game.

[Delirium]

Most gladiator matches in "Ancient Times" were not to the death. They were more like a bloodier version of the WWE than, say, Mortal Kombat.

[evilcabbage]

i've played a few spar guys, a few non-coms, and i have played dudes who got good -by- fighting the wildlife and risking their lives.

you know what makes me feel better when i look back at my characters?

the ones who survived with 3 hp, the ones who had 20 hp and fled, the ones who came inside the gates with bloodied gear and were near death, because i survived that shit.

even if i had to run.

how amazing it would be, to not HAVE that option, to have to fight something in the arena knowing that i will die if i don't use every skill and ability i have to guarantee a win.

Except if you're playing a gladiator, you will die even if you -do- use every skill and ability you have. No one will guarantee you a win. You could spend a year training JUST to fight in the arena - that would be your reason for existing, your focus, even if you're not a dorf. You would have no other reason to exist as a PC. And then you finally get to the arena for your first official match - and that entire year of doing little else but training is blown to smithereens when the OTHER guy kills you. It's sort of like Byn training - except, instead of being able to go on less-deadly contracts to start out with, you only get to go on one. And it is a contract that takes you over the shield wall. You'll either survive or you'll die. It's not an option, it's not a choice. It is an inevitable result.

Most players don't want that outcome, even if they're guaranteed the ability to temporarily store their current character and get it back after their gladiator dies. That's why you don't see gladiators on a regular basis in the game.

i don't want your negativity in here telling me what i want.

i know what i want.

lizzie and cabbage for gladiators 2016.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Most gladiator matches in "Ancient Times" were not to the death. They were more like a bloodier version of the WWE than, say, Mortal Kombat.

This. Not to mention that the purpose of a spectacle like arena combat isn't to have the "bad guy" win. (Assuming PC vs NPC.) So for instance, if I'm a Borsail gladiator and they want to put me in a 1 vs 1 fight against a Braxat, they'll probably do a dry run to see if I even have any business stepping into the ring with something like that. Have the militia or Byn standing by to pull my ass out of the fire if things go wrong. The noble doesn't want to risk a high power warrior any more than the warrior wants to risk himself. A lot of time and training went into it.

I believe BadSkeels said that it's mostly the perception that's so problematic, and I would agree with that.

[wizturbo]

Not all arena events are to the death.  In fact few are.  But the risk of death makes for an exciting time.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

And it doesn't just have to be about dwarves with sdescs that over-sell their size hitting each other with bone axes. If other Houses were able to hire and sponsor gladiators in these events, you could give nobles something else to have their little political pissing contests over. "My gladiator can whoop your gladiator's ass.", "My gladiator is the highest ranked.", etc.

With the right kind of documentation and support, Allanak could have something akin to a sport to watch / bet on / etc. Personally, I've maybe seen... one gladiator event in the last 2-3 years? Chock it up to playtimes, I guess. But they're far-far-far-far-far less common than they used to be, and as a result they end up feeling of spastic, out of place, and awkward. "Oh... staff is doing this rolecall again?  Cool... I guess we'll have one or two RPTs about this and it'll disappear for two more IRL years... Sweet."

[Lizzie]

Eh - I'd never play a Gladiator, this isn't my fight. I'm just saying that "it'll be fun when my character wins" is not a reasonable expectation to have, and that arena matches often end up with dead PCs as a result. Even the ones that the staff puts out role calls on the GDB about - result in dead characters. You have to be OKAY with the very distinct possibility that you will focus your roleplay on training to die in the arena, in order to make a successful Gladiator character in this particular game. And this is why you don't see players lining up to do it.

[QuillDipper]

Once, when brainstorming ideas of how to make the arena more active with my roommate, I had the idea of a in-game yearly tournament between the noble houses. Each one swoles up a champion (or hires one from the byn (or orders an arm soldier)) to join, and either a big free-for-all or, better, a legit tournament with brackets goes through. The winner's patron house gets all dat honor, and the champion themselves get famous and rich. It doesn't even have to be to the death, it could just be to submission.

[Drayab]

I think the risk of death is a necessary component of gladiator fights. If it were 100% safe, then it would be boring.

I think the trick is to balance the risk vs. the reward, and part of that is making it so that players can reasonably do the risk/reward determination about what they're getting into.

On the one hand, nobody wants to sign up for something where you could be killed capriciously, but on the other hand, players consistently take risks with their characters in this game. Every time you go out hunting, you could be killed, but players do it anyway because the risk is worth the reward. People join the Byn even though you might end up on a dangerous job. In fact, people join up BECAUSE it is a dangerous job. Danger is exciting. Once again, the risk is worth it.

There's got to be a balance to make gladiators work, too.

[evilcabbage]

there is.

pull up your lettucy thong, tighten your leg warmers and stop being such a

[Lizzie]

Yes Dryab, also it requires that all contestants stay alive long enough to train appropriately prior to the match. It can't be much fun if you have 6 "groups" all sponsoring their own gladiator, and they train them and the first group loses theirs in the first RL week - the second loses theirs shortly after the first 3 RL weeks - the third one will be on vacation the week of the match and can't attend afterall, the fourth one's player stores out of boredom because the grind wasn't as much fun as he thought it'd be. After the first RL month, the second group manages to get a new gladiator but it's a new PC with all "novice" and "apprentice" skills. And now you have hyped up this big arena match with - three contestants, one of whom is guaranteed to lose because he only has 2 RL weeks of in-game training while the other two have been working on it for a couple of RL months.

[Patuk]

Now I wonder how hard it'd be to get a gladiator thing going as an independent, and just let anyone sponsor in a few. Hm..

[Renenutet]

TLDR: Three pages of players proudly proclaiming they'll pass on playing Borsails. Well, shit!

[Drayab]

Yes Dryab, also it requires that all contestants stay alive long enough to train appropriately prior to the match. It can't be much fun if you have 6 "groups" all sponsoring their own gladiator, and they train them and the first group loses theirs in the first RL week - the second loses theirs shortly after the first 3 RL weeks - the third one will be on vacation the week of the match and can't attend afterall, the fourth one's player stores out of boredom because the grind wasn't as much fun as he thought it'd be. After the first RL month, the second group manages to get a new gladiator but it's a new PC with all "novice" and "apprentice" skills. And now you have hyped up this big arena match with - three contestants, one of whom is guaranteed to lose because he only has 2 RL weeks of in-game training while the other two have been working on it for a couple of RL months.

I have to say, I agree with everything you wrote!

... and I think my particular plan to Make Gladiators Great Again accommodates all of your concerns. 

(I am applying)

[BadSkeelz]

TLDR: Three pages of players proudly proclaiming they'll pass on playing Borsails. Well, shit!

My "kill myself with a PC-supplied spice addiction" experiment will have to wait until I'm not enjoying my current PC. Sorry Renenutet 

[nauta]

Once, when brainstorming ideas of how to make the arena more active with my roommate, I had the idea of a in-game yearly tournament between the noble houses. Each one swoles up a champion (or hires one from the byn (or orders an arm soldier)) to join, and either a big free-for-all or, better, a legit tournament with brackets goes through. The winner's patron house gets all dat honor, and the champion themselves get famous and rich. It doesn't even have to be to the death, it could just be to submission.

I like this.  Open it up to the northern (not Tuluki) PCs too.  One thing I liked about Tuluk was that there was a little bit more tolerance (at least on the surface, and also historically) for including tribals, and to a lesser extent the Kurac in things -- even some elves, now and then.  The current climate of Allanak would make such an event almost impossible, but not entirely impossible.

(Motivation here is in part my opinion, based on hunches and intuition, and likely wrong, that with the closing of Tuluk, northern PCs (delves, Kurac, tribals) have lost some of the diversity of interaction that they occasionally had with Tuluki PCs, be it hostile or positive.  I'd like to see the two PC populations interact more.)

Tangent: I'd be curious if the gith stuff brought more interaction between northern PCs and southern PCs or less.  On the one hand, you'd have southern PCs interested in getting their cred in killing gith, so wandering north to do just that -- on the other hand, the idea of gith between you and the north might turn off some PCs from travelling up north.

[Lukoyin]

TLDR: Three pages of players proudly proclaiming they'll pass on playing Borsails. Well, shit!

I'm game! Pick me, pick me!