Resolving the Backstab Question once and for all

[John]

There's no big, dusty thousand page grimoire of official staff policies about how to feel about and respond to every random situation, folks.  We have to go by judgment sometimes.  (We aren't interested in creating or maintaining such a big dusty grimoire either.)

I think most things are fairly self explanatory and don't require staff to go down to an extreme level of minutae in order to make sure players are playing the game appropriately. Even when staff opinion drifts, most of the time I don't think it changes to such a degree that anyone is going to get more than a "hey, maybe you should think about changing what you're doing a little bit to better reflect X."

Backstab is one of those exceptions though.

I do think that my response in the Ask the Staff question is fairly representative about how the current administration feels regarding backstab in those situations, though.   

This specific skill seems to attract a very polarising view. And anyone who uses it in a way that isn't viewed as acceptable by all staff can find themselves with a pretty rude awakening. Given the history of this one skill, I don't think adding a bit of further clarification is equivalent to creating a dusty tome filled with scenarios and the correct response to those scenarios. Your post even says, it is representative of the current view. Anyone who doesn't see that specific post is not going to know that the current view has changed to what it currently is. When the current view inevitably changes (as it likely will based on past history) it will quite likely change unannounced because it won't necessarily be a a conscious change as staff will simply think "this is the most logical thing to me" even if that logical thing is in complete contradiction of staff's current view.

This isn't intended to say "there is only one right way of using backstab" or that past staff or future staff have been wrong in how they've handled the skill. I personally don't think there is any right or wrong way to use backstab, it's just a matter of what you feel the skill represents. I'm simply pointing out the current viewpoint does seem likely to change and forcing staff to be a bit more deliberate when they do change it seems like a good thing, for this specific skill.

I too remember being worried as a player about using backstab on animals and stuff, 10+ years ago, opinion has definitely shifted over the years.

I'm not sure you have to go back 10+ years ago. Vague player recollection seems to put it anywhere from 9 years ago (which I agree is splitting hairs) to 6 years ago with some players still being concerned over the skill today (I've never been worried about it because I always saw it as something that, with the right equipment, could be used even in training). That said....

Perhaps it could be improved to add the provisos:

o "... be it an animal or a humanoid."

Thanks

o "Hence, using backstab (or sap) during sparring sessions is something that would require a good deal of RP to justify.  See BACKSTAB ROLEPLAY for examples."

I think this might be better left off. What is "good deal of RP" is highly subjective and players are likely to cry foul when their "deeply thought out" 5 minutes of RP doesn't get the same view from staff.

[BadSkeelz]

Slitting throats wasn't even an especially popular means of assassination back in the day, believe it or not. That's mostly Hollywood dramatics.

I need to mastercraft a garrote with a backstab/'stabbing' flag, one of these days.

[Case]

Mount and dismount lag should be a thing really, considering the lags on other stuff.

also mounting when fighting? dismounting when fighting?

[FantasyWriter]

also mounting when fighting? dismounting when fighting?

Both should have a chance of the mount tossing you to the ground.

[Vositus]

also mounting when fighting? dismounting when fighting?

Both should have a chance of the mount tossing you to the ground.

Don't mean to de-rail, but I love both suggestions. Nothing crazy, though. With a high enough ride skill you should probably be able to Zoro the fuck out of dicey situations.

Relating to backstab, I think I used it once... On a bahamet. I felt stupid forever and never tried it again. I think at this point updating the help files is both reasonable and necessary.

[Desertman]

also mounting when fighting? dismounting when fighting?

Both should have a chance of the mount tossing you to the ground.

This already exists....

[hyzhenhok]

I think if you're going to backstab critters (and I think that's fine), then you should be doing it realistically. The example someone posted of riding up, dismounting, and backstabbing - that is kind of meh. Hard to be sneaky when you're riding an inix up to something. Like I'm cool if someone's roleplaying manuevering around someone, but it's basically a surprise attack. It shouldn't be your default init-combat move just to get some training in.

Wilderness rooms are large, and I think there's a reason why seidhr specified macros. As long as you (h)(s)emote carefully approaching the gurth or skeet or whatever, I don't see why there'd be any problem backstabbing.

[Desertman]

I don't even see why you have to roleplay carefully approaching it to land a critical hit.

I think your chances should be increased if you do in fact carefully (meaning unseen and unheard) approach the target in terms of landing your "hit", but I do not think it should be a necessity in any regard.


The war-painted, mohawked elf lets out a banshee scream as she charges at a large hulking braxat.

Nearing a large hulking braxat the war-painted, mohawked elf leaps through the air, a feral snarl on her angular face as she thrusts her spear towards a large hulking braxat's eye!

backstab braxat

Seems perfectly fine to me in every regard.

[Bogre]

Desert elves can't be assassins. 

If it's just a critical strike, why is it assassins who get it ? Why not the masters of combat, I.e. warriors? I feel it's their roundhouse because it involves skulking.

It's the equivalent of sneak attack bonus from pnp.

[Jingo]

Mount and dismount lag should be a thing really, considering the lags on other stuff.

also mounting when fighting? dismounting when fighting?

Dismount lag would really eff up a lot of characters. Including assassins.

I would be in favor of mount lag though.

[evilcabbage]

Desert elves can't be assassins. 

If it's just a critical strike, why is it assassins who get it ? Why not the masters of combat, I.e. warriors? I feel it's their roundhouse because it involves skulking.

It's the equivalent of sneak attack bonus from pnp.

slipknife

[Case]

Mount and dismount lag should be a thing really, considering the lags on other stuff.

also mounting when fighting? dismounting when fighting?

Dismount lag would really eff up a lot of characters. Including assassins.

I would be in favor of mount lag though.

Dismount lag -in combat-

[Jingo]

Mount and dismount lag should be a thing really, considering the lags on other stuff.

also mounting when fighting? dismounting when fighting?

Dismount lag would really eff up a lot of characters. Including assassins.

I would be in favor of mount lag though.

Dismount lag -in combat-

That's reasonable.

[valeria]

I've never considered it a simple critical strike because of the 'why not warriors then' thing.  And the fact that you have to type 'backstab,' which implies stabbing someone in the back, which implies them not turning around.  Even the coded responses to backstab imply that it's not going to work if someone turns around.

I think treating it like a critical strike at this point is wishful thinking for something that should probably be true but isn't.

[RogueGunslinger]

I think treating it like a critical strike at this point is wishful thinking for something that should probably be true but isn't.

It's in the help-files though...

[BadSkeelz]

I think treating it like a critical strike at this point is wishful thinking for something that should probably be true but isn't.

It's in the help-files though...

So are Drovians, Elkrosians, and Nilazi

[Armaddict]

It was explicitly stated at some point that it is not a stab in the back, and the helpfile was changed to what it is now.

Previously, said helpfile actually said it -was- a stab in the back, as a remnant to the stock game, I believe.

Warriors do get critical strikes.  It's known as frightening damage.