Karma: is it no longer fulfilling its intended purpose?

[Adhira]

I don't have a timeframe yet for when we might implement the karma change. It is possible it could happen before the guild changes are complete, but there are a few different things we have to consider, so it'll just be a matter of making sure we've considered all of them.

[SuchDragonWow]

Adhira, thanks for the response.  It's good to know the staffing team are going to shine a light on the karma system and tweak it as necessary with the new changes.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Idea: Start an "Asmoth Group Therapy" thread in Ask the Players and those who are interested can provide some constructive criticism on this subject to hopefully help you see where staffs bias against you is coming from.

Karma is a contentious topic. We currently have a list of criteria, coupled with some staffside parameters on these criteria that detail how we award karma right now. This was done with the best intentions, in an effort to make our process as objective as possible.  When reviewing karma we ask for feedback from multiple staff members in an effort to get a variety of information and knowledge about a player, coupled with looking through request tool submissions and yes, sometimes GDB posts.

What we are looking at is our Karma structure overall and what we want to use moving forward.  This is a complex question as we need to take into account all of the changes we are planning with guilds.  However, we are looking at this, and changes to this system are likely. We hope that the changes will make things simpler for staff and player alike.

The karma system is way better now than it was 5 years ago, when Karma was really just a form a staff kudos. "I like that thing you did - here have karma." Where-as now karma is clearly defined both in how you attain it and what it is awarded for. The karma review model is good, and you should feel good.  

That being said, where it's at now does look a little "achievement"-y. Personally I never have and never intend to play a claned leader, so of the 7 criteria to gain 8 karma, I'm down to just 6 for 8... Bad Skeels probably won't get the mage point ever, unless "Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world" can be interpreted as "Magcik's place in the world is at the point of Bad Skeels' blade!" (Like that? )

It would be nice to have some more categories, or more information on what each means. Does logevity mean having a 6mo or 1 year character? Hours played? How about just being a long time player, which many people seem think think deserves consideration as well?  Leadership - do I have to be Sarge? Or can I just involve other players in my plotz?

Edited to add: In light of recent events, maybe a "GDB / Community" category would be good. 

[SuchDragonWow]

That being said, where it's at now does look a little "achievement"-y.

It would be nice to have some more categories, or more information on what each means. Does logevity mean having a 6mo or 1 year character? Hours played? How about just being a long time player, which many people seem think think deserves consideration as well?  Leadership - do I have to be Sarge? Or can I just do my best to involve players in the things I'm doing?

Doesn't that make it even more achievement-y?  Not that I disagree.  I think there should be more criteria stipulated for both the awarding and denial of karma.  I also think the ranges should be shortened, and the highest options should be spec app and regular subguild only (mul, sorc and psion).

[MeTekillot]

I got my Natick understanding karma for a mundane character. You can also earn 2 points per category (besides longevity)

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Doesn't that make it even more achievement-y? 

True. But I guess my reasoning was that with more categories and/or more ways to achieve them, I could get my 8 achievements without having to sacrifice my play style. You know those achievements that are just there for 100%-ers to grind? (Looking at you Steam Final Fantasy 7's "Earn 99,999,999 gil" achievement.) Lets not have those...

[SuchDragonWow]

I agree.  I think it should be reasonable for every play style to feel successful at this game and play dem roles with time and effort.

[SuchDragonWow]

Since this is a discussion about karma, I'll throw in that I got every single point of karma from playing sponsored roles.  I know staff appreciates people applying for and carrying out those roles, and it goes a long way to building trust.  So, take a shot, and if it doesn't fall, keep hacking at it.  I know there's a rolecall open right now.  All they can do is say "no", right?

I do also agree that people who don't play those kinds of roles should have avenues to create that proverbial trust.

Pardon the double post.  

[Jihelu]

The worse staff can do is say "No" and possibly even tell you why.
The best they can do is give you the roll.

The absolute worse is you lose 8 karma and get made into Guy Fieri.

[Vwest]

You better not be talking shit about Guy Fieri.

I will cut you, motherfucker. I will cut you deep.

[Jihelu]

You better not be talking shit about Guy Fieri.

I will cut you, motherfucker. I will cut you deep.

The only guild I have listed on my fucking arm client is "guy Fieri"
What does this even mean?

[Rathustra]

You better not be talking shit about Guy Fieri.

I will cut you, motherfucker. I will cut you deep.

[John]

John I was told years ago that psionicists required a special app, no matter how much karma you have, because of certain things that have to be set up manually by the staff. The same with sorcerers. I know people who had templar on their app list, but they also couldn't just regular app it. I mean codedly yes you can, if you have the karma. It'll be an option. But it's not just a matter of staff clicking the "approve" button and sending you on your way to chargen. So they require a special app for these uber-high-level apps, even if you have the karma to play it. That's how it was years ago and as recent as three years ago. I don't know if things have changed since then though.

Huh. In that case, outside of GCP I'm not really sure I understand the point of having karma 8 in the system. Perhaps it's a holdover from when these characters weren't so complicated (assuming that time ever existed)? Maybe the helpfiles could be updated to warn people sorcerer and psionicists always require a special app. Because that is not what I, as someone who doesn't have the karma, would perceive them as and if I ever were to get karma 8 I'd be more than a little disappointed had I not learned of it ahead of time.

we are looking at this, and changes to this system are likely. We hope that the changes will make things simpler for staff and player alike.

That's all anyone can ask. Thanks.

[Lizzie]

John I was told years ago that psionicists required a special app, no matter how much karma you have, because of certain things that have to be set up manually by the staff. The same with sorcerers. I know people who had templar on their app list, but they also couldn't just regular app it. I mean codedly yes you can, if you have the karma. It'll be an option. But it's not just a matter of staff clicking the "approve" button and sending you on your way to chargen. So they require a special app for these uber-high-level apps, even if you have the karma to play it. That's how it was years ago and as recent as three years ago. I don't know if things have changed since then though.

Huh. In that case, outside of GCP I'm not really sure I understand the point of having karma 8 in the system. Perhaps it's a holdover from when these characters weren't so complicated (assuming that time ever existed)? Maybe the helpfiles could be updated to warn people sorcerer and psionicists always require a special app. Because that is not what I, as someone who doesn't have the karma, would perceive them as and if I ever were to get karma 8 I'd be more than a little disappointed had I not learned of it ahead of time.

we are looking at this, and changes to this system are likely. We hope that the changes will make things simpler for staff and player alike.

That's all anyone can ask. Thanks.

The why (as far as I know - again this is only what I'd heard, second-hand):

In order to special app something above your karma level, it has to be no more than 3 points higher. If they removed 8 karma and made it 7, then anyone with 4 karma could special app a psionicist. So basically - karma points 6, 7, and 8 exist only to limit who/how many can submit special applications.

[seidhr]

If you have 8 karma you can make sorcs and psionicists through the character creation at the main menu.  We can deny them if we feel there are too many in-game, etc.

[Norcal]

You better not be talking shit about Guy Fieri.

I will cut you, motherfucker. I will cut you deep.

Watch it!  Guy Fieri comes from Ferndale,  in Humboldt County.  We don't get mad here, we just get even.

[BadSkeelz]

Don't forget 'high.'

[Hauwke]

So the norm for what I am seeing, Is that after about 1 year give or take a few months.
(Basically between 9-15 months)
Most people have earned their first point of karma. And then they spend the next few months playing some more and getting given another one.
Followed by the various criteria being met all at once basically and the points sort of trickling in after that until inevitably you get an 8-karma player.

And yet I look at the GDB and very few people who I thought had major karma (Dman for one) turn out to only have relatively mediocre levels. And then there is the few people who have none despite having played for years. Now I will use myself as an example for the no karma/years of playing group.

I have had my issues. I have a few bad account notes, I admit I understand the fact they are there. Some arent actually 'bad' notes to be fair, but they are there. I have sent karma requests I think three times now. And each time I have been told something along the lines of me not being a responsible rper. And to be entirely fair on that regard I wasnt at first. I would like to think I am now though. Making a large amount of improvement, on all the aspects I was called out on being irresponsible.

So I now come to my actual point for posting. Should karma be based only on responsibility pure and simple. Or should it be based on responsibility and improvement, I have read plenty of times that people say they dont feel they deserve karma when they probably do but dont technically meet the criteria for getting any.

Example:
Johnmcrandomguy: He was really and truly terrible at rp when he first started. His writing style was impeccable and he just bullshit his way through it despite being a fairly mediocre rper, having very little understanding of the docs because he never read them. But over time his rp quality did improve by a substancial portion and in the end he got 8karma.

Johnmcsuperrandomguy: Was an experienced rper of many years when he came to arm. He understood the docs fairly well and could do all of the things pretty good. He wasnt noticed because he never did anything really way out of the ordinary. He got maybe 1 or 2 karma in the same time as the first guy.

Now that I write those both out and read them over rather than think it. I say both deserve karma. But do they deserve equal amounts?

My answer, I think the first guy deserves slightly less karma simply because he never read the docs. But he deserves slightly more because he improved so much.
The second guy deserves more because he understands the setting, less because his improvement isnt as obvious on the surface.
Thoughts people?

[SuchDragonWow]

I'd be curious to know how you'd improved.  If you've gone literal years of playing and had three karma reviews turned down for that first point of karma, you must've done something pretty bad in my mind.

[Lizzie]

I'd be curious to know how you'd improved.  If you've gone literal years of playing and had three karma reviews turned down for that first point of karma, you must've done something pretty bad in my mind.

It depends on when he asked for the reviews. If he asked for them before the admin created an actual set of standards, then he might simply not have pleased the staff who was doling the points out at  the time.

If he asked for them after admin created the set of standards, then he certainly might've been doing something pretty significant to warrant a rejection of karma points.

If it's the first case, he should request a new review. If it's the latter case, he should check out the results of the most recent one or two, and see what, exactly, is needed to improve.

[Norcal]

So the norm for what I am seeing, Is that after about 1 year give or take a few months.
(Basically between 9-15 months)

You do not have to wait 9-15 months to get your first point of karma.  If you can play a character who stays alive longer than a certain time (not sure how long yet I think it is 1 year IC), then you can get a point for longevity.  I reckon people just do not ask.

When I first started playing I did not know about karma, or sending in player reports.  I just had FUN and learned along the way, including getting in trouble on a few occasions. I got karma when I asked to play a d elf after I had a PC I managed to keep alive for a while.

I would encourage folks to ask. 

[Hauwke]

Food for thought at least. Thanks for the responses. The actual issue was for the most part poor grammar etc and a few other things that have been so far as I have a say on the matter fixed.
Anyways thanks for the responses again.

[Jihelu]

I got a point of karma and I've been here a year.
And I asked for it.
And I was here less than a year because I took a few months break.

[MonteeBall]

The new karma system seems to be a huge improvement over the old. I started playing around 2001 and some of the things I saw back then were simply mind boggling. There was little to no valence.

I do not believe that this game is conducive to every RP style in terms of staff reward and engagement. If you're all about RP at the expense of posting in the forums or trying to talk to staff, you're always going to be at a huge disadvantage. Being a good player should be enough. It is what it is.