Karma: is it no longer fulfilling its intended purpose?

[Nergal]

Players with 5+ karma certainly can special app up to 8 karma roles, but people with 6+ karma can app the roles they've unlocked normally. There's certain restrictions on that (for example, if there are too many psionicists in the game we can reject an 8-karma player applying to play a psionicist).

[Lizzie]

The only remaining 8-karma options - quarter-sorcerer subguild and psionicist - require special applications ANYWAY, even if you have the full 8 points of karma.

Wow, I was not aware of that. Is that documented anywhere? My initial search has returned the help file saying 8 karma is required and a post from Nathvaan stating 8 karma OR a special app is required.

It's been the case pretty much since karma was implemented in the game. If you want to play something that requires more karma than you currently have, you have to special app it - and it can't be more than 3 points over your current level.

So if you have 1 karma point, you can special app a 4-karma role. If you have 5 karma points, you can special app an 8 karma role.

edit: Yeah what Nergal said. You can app it - no guarantee you'll get it even if you DO have the karma for it. That's still no different than it ever was.

[John]

It's been the case pretty much since karma was implemented in the game. If you want to play something that requires more karma than you currently have, you have to special app it - and it can't be more than 3 points over your current level.

So if you have 1 karma point, you can special app a 4-karma role. If you have 5 karma points, you can special app an 8 karma role.

edit: Yeah what Nergal said. You can app it - no guarantee you'll get it even if you DO have the karma for it. That's still no different than it ever was.

Sorry, it sounded like a special app was required regardless of your karma level. I was are of the karma +3 rule for special apps and recently learned of the "we'll reject any app if we feel there's too many people of a certain guild or subguild in the game" (with an ever decreasing threshold of what "too many" means as you go up the karma levels).

[Jihelu]

If you spec app a 8 karma class and there are too many do you lose your spec app?

[Desertman]

If you spec app a 8 karma class and there are too many do you lose your spec app?

I believe you only "spend" your application if it is accepted, not if it is denied.

I had one denied recently and it didn't get "spent".

[Lizzie]

John I was told years ago that psionicists required a special app, no matter how much karma you have, because of certain things that have to be set up manually by the staff. The same with sorcerers. I know people who had templar on their app list, but they also couldn't just regular app it. I mean codedly yes you can, if you have the karma. It'll be an option. But it's not just a matter of staff clicking the "approve" button and sending you on your way to chargen. So they require a special app for these uber-high-level apps, even if you have the karma to play it. That's how it was years ago and as recent as three years ago. I don't know if things have changed since then though.

[Kryos]

As one might expect, I have fairly complicated views about the karma system.

1. First, and foremost, I believe it is necessary in a RPI style game to have a measuring stick of player reliability.  Some roles are inherently more powerful, or mechanically equipped, or have the ability to dramatically effect other characters.  If you have these roles, then you need a way to determine who is capable of playing them and not solely in the context of the game.  Some sort of mechanism is required here, and karma is that mechanism.

2. Its also a numbers game.  If staff monitored players for karma every six months on the dot, approximating some numbers . . . say, 300 player base (which is probably low), and 12 staff doing this sort of observation for a week's time each, only one staff per, that's 42 weeks out of the year, vaguely, dedicated to just reviewing karma.  It was pointed out before that multiple staff members handle a karma review, however.  The point of this is not to be accurate to the decimal, but to give the rough approximation of just how much time would be spent.  A lot of time spent not doing anything else at all staff related, and is not a sensible expectation.  Since that's a lot of workload that is potentially better spent building stories and working with players on more fun things, the use of a proactive karma evaluation request seems pretty solid to me.  Last, and perhaps most important, you need a method of evaluation that is as absolutely fair to all who use it as possible.  Player proactivity is this tool.  If you want it, punch the ticket and go for the ride.

3. If you behave in disappointing ways outside the game, it seems to me like that's a sign of a ticking time bomb in the game.  Pure opinion, but I believe malevolent behavior, misconduct,  and attacks rather than discussion(the intended use of this forum for instance) are all indicative of someone who will be problematic when they do not get their way in the game or in a discussion with staff.  Not a veiled dig at anyone, but a topic I've seen floating and putting out my line.

4. It's probably too large.  I do not believe the karma system needs 8 points to it:  that level of granularity is a bit extreme.  It could probably suffice with half.  A new player, who starts with the ability to spec app any esg/low tier magic/delves and half giants is probably the right tact, though as a personal point I'd swap dwarves with delves.  The first tick is viv/ruk/delf/all esg, give them a bit to see if they are playing the roles and learned the basics then notch this one off.  Second tick is hg/krathi/whiran.  HG's are hard.  Whiran/krathi are powerful.  And testing free reign on the 1 pointers is is the real test of responsibility.  Third tick is muls, fourth tick is sorc/psion.  

In conclusion if you structure the character creation system in an RPI where there are more powerful/dangerous options, some measure of determining responsibility is required.  The karma system is that measure and its functional, yet not optimal.

[Warsong]

I definitely agree that the range is too wide. It just seems to take insanely long to earn karma. Looking at the notes people have posted, 1/year seems the norm, with often many months before the first point. Rarely is anyone rewarded twice in one year.

It's all but official that the higher ranges of karma take several years to obtain. Think about that. There are roles in this game that staff won't entrust with anybody they haven't vetted for half a decade or more. It seems widely accepted that a year of play is still 1-karma territory. One karma! I don't think there's much that genuinely takes numerous years to learn, unless the player was exceedingly young when they started.

Other games I've played which use a similar kind of RPP model, even with a smaller granularity of perhaps 1-5, tend to regularly award the first point after about a month when the player has shown some decent understanding of the game's premise, and if they continue to play regularly and improve, they'll likely have all but the last one or two points within a couple of years. It felt like a more wholesome system.

It certainly doesn't seem right to me that the options available at 3-4 karma warrant several years of experience and proven worth. Maybe the 7th and 8th point justifies something truly exemplary because they enable such uniquely powerful and/or challenging roles, but I see nothing in especially the first two points of karma that any talented roleplayer shouldn't be able to prove themselves worthy of in, say, three months.

I played a game called Parallel which had like three staff members and they were able to do an RPP review each month. With every clan having its own dedicated staff here, it seems this should be possible. It definitely doesn't seem that there's any need for months upon months of play to earn one's first point of karma, and a couple of years to earn the second. That seems to entirely conflict with what these points actually grant you.

[Bogre]

Somehow, for years we have made a correlation that playing nice on a discussion board somehow infers that you're not going to do all the bad things someone can do with a Mage:

Damn, seems like all my mages are doomed to fail because I get my posts moderated on the gdb....

If you think that sounds stupid, then you're right, welcome to Karma from early 2000s to now.  Where ooc actions on the boards somehow say you'll be a horrible player of guilds outside mundane, God forbid.

Alright I'm gonna shit shower and head to work, I'll check in throughout the day again and see how if any folks can support this silly belief.

I think the point more is that if you're fostering a hostile relationship on the public forums, you are really hamstringing the ability of someone to put faith in you. I mean - we already have newbies who are intimidated by these forums. I disagree with John - I think the GDB and the community are part of the game. I don't think you need to be active or a big presence on the GDB to get karma, but I do believe that if you are going to participate than you should show respect to other players and staff here. Obviously, to be also be supportive and welcoming to new players.

It's completely analogous to being in the game itself - having a high-powered character means you -really- need to show respect to other players exactly because you have such a cannon in your hands that can wreak havoc. Would I want to hand something like that over to someone whose responses in the majority of settings is volatile, borderline hostile or unsupportive of others? No. I would be worried about something ticking them off, and seeing their character respond in game or go nuka-cola over it. Even if their character background was pacifist F-me mcflufferson, I'd be wary.

Would I hesitate to give a character to someone who wants to play a volatile, murderous character, who I know has a track record of making things fun and interesting for players when they are villainous, and who is polite and open about what and why they do things in game? No - I wouldn't, I'd let them loose and pop some popcorn.

====

On a personal note, Asmoth - I would say to swallow some of that and just keep marching on. I eat a lot of shit in my day to day life, and the best thing to do is just keep spooning it in. Like, it sucks, it feels terrible, but it's better to just take it as a road bump.

If you feel a staff member was belittling or didn't respond in a serious manner to you, then by all means, file that complaint, you deserve to be treated respectfully too. But don't start firing barbs everywhere because you feel shut down by 'being annoying'. I sort of feel that there probably wasn't serious offense meant, but text communication is really notorious for implications of emotions and feelings not meant to be implied.

If I was in the same situation I'd say (to myself), 'well screw this, I guess I've got to show them', buckle down and create an awesome character. Flood my bio sheet with bios, do polite reports to clanned and unclanned staff, keep my nose super clean, try to be moderate on the GDB and then in a bit send in a request - it doesn't even have to be a karma request, that says, "Hey guys. I have really been trying over the past X months to do better and address: 1) 2) 3). Can I get some feedback on how I'm doing? Where can I focus my efforts?"

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[palomar]

I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out of the guild revamping process. Maybe it'll affect karma levels even more than we've already seen.

Personally, I don't have any major issues with the current karma system - it gives more options to get 8 karma than before, all possible points combined. Under the old system it was difficult to know what you were doing well and where you were lacking if staff didn't tell you. I don't think being off-peak is much of a problem either, but it depends on what kind of roles you play. Communication is key and it's always good to do what you do well, with the occasional foray into unknown territory role-wise. That said, it's not an ideal system but I'm not sure what should replace it.

Also, don't forget that most sponsored role calls don't require karma.

[Kryos]

Warsong, not trying to bust your chops, but I poked at Parallel a little in its time.  It was a smaller game and the auditing of rpp was probably more swift, enabled by that size differential.  In a system where every staff can't get to know every player on a relatively personal level through proximity observation, I'm a pretty big proponent of prolonged and thorough observations.  Its a bridge to a more compact system argument in my mind, though, and takes some of the tension and confusion out to boot.

[Bogre]

It also had the benefit of a number of established players who had RPP carrying over from Atonement keeping up to 2 of their RPP points.

Secondly, you actually spent RPP for races, so a monthly review was warranted because it was a renewable (hopefully) resource. RPP was also used for different things there, as more so races and thus stat boosts (rather than arm, where most of the races are more or less-pro/conned or hampered by other rp things), or for skill boosts starting off, rather than skills, roles or classes.

I always was so leery of spending RPP there, I'd thought I'd never ever ever get it back, haha.

[Jihelu]

So it turns out I have a clean slate account notes wise.
Which is strange.

I'm sure someone would have noticed...all the killings....all the murders....ALL THE BOMBINGS!
I mean, they're right.

[Asmoth]

Seems fairly clear, to me.  Clean yourself up on the GDB and things may change.  Keep walking the line between trolling/flaming on the GDB and it won't.

If you are unwilling to change your behavior, or honestly cannot tell what you're doing wrong despite us laying it out repeatedly, perhaps stop posting.

Nessalin
Producer
Armageddon Staff

So I am not utterly shocked that my near Nyr level response from that staff member is totally disregarded and this staff complaint was treated like a karma review complain.  Which it wasn't.  To be clear, being told no isn't the issue, not providing feedback in a constructive manner as to why and how the gdb overrides every karma category in the game for me, while others get RP karma and other innocuous easy karma and I'm sitting here playing with desert elves and rangers who vivadu touched in the bad place.

Lost all faith, not that there was much in the first place.

[Jihelu]

Pls stop

[Adhira]

Karma is a contentious topic. We currently have a list of criteria, coupled with some staffside parameters on these criteria that detail how we award karma right now. This was done with the best intentions, in an effort to make our process as objective as possible.  When reviewing karma we ask for feedback from multiple staff members in an effort to get a variety of information and knowledge about a player, coupled with looking through request tool submissions and yes, sometimes GDB posts.

Given all of that it is still a subjective process because the decision is made by people. We do not have any plans to change that.

What we are looking at is our Karma structure overall and what we want to use moving forward.  This is a complex question as we need to take into account all of the changes we are planning with guilds.  However, we are looking at this, and changes to this system are likely. We hope that the changes will make things simpler for staff and player alike.

There'll be more news on this at a later date.

[Beethoven]

Thank you for the insight, Adhira. I look forward to seeing what you guys have in mind.

[Asmoth]

That's awesome Adhira, but right now I am more interested in how the staff of the game can talk to players anyway they want.  For the record I love all the changes to sorc, to magick.  I dislike the relation of the gdb to supposedly have some impact on what I play or don't.  I can loath you on the gdb and still play phenomenally with you in game.  I would think you guys understood the difference between ic and ooc, on a rp game.

[Lizzie]

Pls stop

+1

[Adhira]

Asmoth - I'm sorry that you are unhappy with your recent correspondence with staff. I understand that you feel that you were not spoken to with the level of civility deserved. I agree that staff should keep their tone and comments at a professional and courteous level, that is the standard that I try to uphold in all my communications.

Where we don't agree is that the GDB should be divorced entirely from having any impact on karma levels.  Karma is about a multitude of things, trust is one word mentioned. Trust in your ability to be responsible within the game, when using code, when playing a role. Trust that you can communicate with staff, that you can participate in the community both in game and out of the game in a manner that is appropriate.

We allow that there can be lapses, there can be mistakes. Staff and players alike have their moments when they may not present themselves in the best way, or their wording may convey things in a way that was not intended.

At the end of all of this however, the decision on karma levels belongs with staff. Just as we reserve the right to make decisions about who can play the game we also reserve that same right in allocating karma. Sometimes all the categories being met will not result in the karma you feel you deserve, but in the karma that staff feel comfortable with allocating to you.

[Asmoth]

Asmoth - I'm sorry that you are unhappy with your recent correspondence with staff. I understand that you feel that you were not spoken to with the level of civility deserved. I agree that staff should keep their tone and comments at a professional and courteous level, that is the standard that I try to uphold in all my communications.

Where we don't agree is that the GDB should be divorced entirely from having any impact on karma levels.  Karma is about a multitude of things, trust is one word mentioned. Trust in your ability to be responsible within the game, when using code, when playing a role. Trust that you can communicate with staff, that you can participate in the community both in game and out of the game in a manner that is appropriate.

We allow that there can be lapses, there can be mistakes. Staff and players alike have their moments when they may not present themselves in the best way, or their wording may convey things in a way that was not intended.

At the end of all of this however, the decision on karma levels belongs with staff. Just as we reserve the right to make decisions about who can play the game we also reserve that same right in allocating karma. Sometimes all the categories being met will not result in the karma you feel you deserve, but in the karma that staff feel comfortable with allocating to you.

Well, a civil and well worded response.  Thanks for your time and explanation, I can only hope that other staff can learn by your example.

Have a nice day.

[whitt]

I can loath you on the gdb and still play phenomenally with you in game.  I would think you guys understood the difference between ic and ooc, on a rp game.

Why would anyone tolerate a customer like that?  Think back to this woman who demanded you show up immediately to fix her simple technical issue that you could have resolved by phone.  She then demanded to pay you by check instead of credit card.  She then tried to cancel the charge against the credit card.  Are you going to serve that customer again?  She loathed you and the (in her mind) menial task you do.  The answer is probably?  Hell no.

With the always popular unless (a) I'm paid in advance (A LOT) and (b) I need the $$$ enough to be worth the grief.

So now think of yourself as that customer, calling you (Staff) with a list of demands for roles and karma, knowing that you shitpost them at the slightest provocation.  and know that neither (a) nor (b) applies.  How are you affecting their desire to serve you as a customer.

[Asmoth]

Well honestly, I serve them by being awesome in their game and providing enjoyment to the rest of you.  It's almost like charity really.

Aside from my Kadian Merchant where I shit the bed because I didn't know how to play a Kadian that well.  I haven't failed at any role, except maybe to a random Mekillot eating me.

[BadSkeelz]

Forget it, whitt. It's whinertown.

[BadSkeelz]

Karma is a contentious topic. We currently have a list of criteria, coupled with some staffside parameters on these criteria that detail how we award karma right now. This was done with the best intentions, in an effort to make our process as objective as possible.  When reviewing karma we ask for feedback from multiple staff members in an effort to get a variety of information and knowledge about a player, coupled with looking through request tool submissions and yes, sometimes GDB posts.

Given all of that it is still a subjective process because the decision is made by people. We do not have any plans to change that.

What we are looking at is our Karma structure overall and what we want to use moving forward.  This is a complex question as we need to take into account all of the changes we are planning with guilds.  However, we are looking at this, and changes to this system are likely. We hope that the changes will make things simpler for staff and player alike.

There'll be more news on this at a later date.

Back on topic (FFS), but Adhira I'm curious. Will Karma changes come after Guild and Subguild changes? That's what I would assume.