Karma: is it no longer fulfilling its intended purpose?

[Jihelu]

I don't see the systems as exclusionary, however. Staff can't really mold or coerce or improve anyone to play differently; they can't train us or be our life coach.

Frankly?  Because you're a nuisance in the OOC sense.  We're not obligated to give you karma if you make our lives difficult, even if you're the world's best RP'er.

There are a hundred more constructive ways to word that, so as to better direct him towards being the 'ideal' player. You wouldn't even need to use more words, just better and more constructive ones. That is the difference between molding a better player and leaving a player feeling like they're 'enemies' in future engagements.

It's like way back when I checked in to ask about backstab usage.

I was told by a 'producer' that it's fine to use it for hunting if that's what your character is doing. So whenever we were out hunting, I did, until about three weeks later a staff member exploded at me out of nowhere for using it on animals, threatening me with storage if I abused backstab again. That was it, there was nothing beyond some hyper-aggressive threatening and silence.

Let's skip forward and a different character is out with a friend and we run into a gith. So, the other PC is tanking the gith and mine dismounts and backstabs the gith, then proceeds with normal combat until it's dead. We've done this many times before and there has never been an issue. This time, I get a send, "Never use backstab like that again.", to which I asked what exactly I was doing wrong.

I got silence in response.

What was I, a newer player, supposed to take away from that? What could I have possibly been expected to learn from it?

Staff are in the ideal position to mold, train and direct players towards what they expect, they simply choose not to most of the time.

That is a bit odd.
Why they'd be mad at you for trying to kill something with a command you can use in combat/initiate combat...I don't know

[Inks]

I find your backstab story very strange.

[Armaddict]

I find your backstab story very strange.

[BadSkeelz]

I wouldn't be surprised if staff policy on backstab has changed over time. I've seen plenty of identical use cases in my time here (last 4 years) or before and never heard of anyone getting in trouble for it.

It's things like this where I think Account Notes and staff-internal communication and reviews become valuable. If there's Staffer who really hates the use of backstab on animals and thinks its twinky, and they're the only one who thinks this way, I would prefer they put a (signed) comment on the characters' account. Then when an account review comes in for a player with such a note, the rest of the Staff (who might be neutral or think its fine to backstab whatever) can come to consensus and potentially dismiss that account note. I'd rather have that than the displeasure of an anonymous staffer messaging me in game yelling at me. When feedback is too immediate or personal is when things become too subjective. Shooting from the hip is not a good way to disciple players. It also seemed to be a lot more common back in the day when staff (by stories told to me) weren't nearly as impartial and deliberative as they are now.

There's definitely room for improved staff communication when it comes to critiques, just as there's room for improved player communication. There always is. Human nature ensures that people on both sides are going to occasionally fall short. In those cases its important for the wronged party to be the better man. Give the other side the benefit of the doubt. Wait a bit, let tempers (on both sides) cool, and then ask for clarification. Have a conversation, not an argument.

[Beethoven]

I've always been afraid to even try to train backstab because I'm not sure what's acceptable. Stories like this don't help.

[Asmoth]

I've always been afraid to even try to train backstab because I'm not sure what's acceptable. Stories like this don't help.

Unless they changed it, backstab is very powerful when it's trained up.  I remember a clan mate being killed by being backstabbed in a sparring match, with a sparring weapon.

There is no chill with backstabbing, it seems it's always I'M MURDERING YOU! There is no practice.

[Jihelu]

Do not
For the love of all that is holy.
Backstab in a sparring match.
You can get away with:
Kicking
Bashing
Subduing
Spitting
Biting
But do not backstab
Backstab is essentially, you grab your friend and try to stab their eyes out.
Not "I wanna get gud"

[Armaddict]

My guess is that there is either more to that story, or there was a clear misinterpretation of what happened by the observing staff member.  Because gith aren't even animals.  I literally cannot find any sense in that scenario.

Frankly, though, it doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand, which kind of suffered a massive derail.

I -do- think Karma is still serving its purpose, but that there will be tweaks that are required to level things out again since options have been a'changin', and I also think the limitation of Karma should be a reflection of ability to use it in a way that's conducive to the game.  Not based on relationships, because 'relationships' is code for 'whether I have respect for your methods or opinions or not', which is still subjective from staff member to staff member, from staff team to staff team.

With a disclaimer that being a prick in communications is never a good idea, but there's a good amount of leeway for if someone is clearly frustrated at a difference in opinion on a matter, as well.

[Asmoth]

Back at the real PC, Staff complaint filed, no name calling, no sarcasm, no nothing but facts.  Now I will use a bit of sarcasm, I am waiting to see how they justify treating me like shit. /sarcasm.

[Majikal]

Back at the real PC, Staff complaint filed, no name calling, no sarcasm, no nothing but facts.  Now I will use a bit of sarcasm, I am waiting to see how they justify treating me like shit. /sarcasm.

Probably not the best place for this kind of thing. Seems like you're mostly just demonstrating what the initial gripe was about.

[Armaddict]

Right.  I don't think make it an outright matter of public record will help you much.

[Jingo]

Backstab anything you want to backstab. I got my backstab credentials backstabbing kryl.

[Asmoth]

It doesn't really matter one way or the other.  I am extremely confident that there will be lame reason given as to why that's okay to talk to people like that when they ask a question.

Or there won't be any given and they will just ban me from the GDB again and store my current character.

[Armaddict]

It doesn't really matter one way or the other.  I am extremely confident that there will be lame reason given as to why that's okay to talk to people like that when they ask a question.

Or there won't be any given and they will just ban me from the GDB again and store my current character.

...I think here is an appropriate time for me to say I think showing disagreement is an obligation to staff.  That doesn't mean you should try to stomp all over them.  You're not gonna have people in your corner for that, because those are two very different things.

[Dar]

I'll be honest. I think I have mora karma right now then I deserve. 3 years ago, when I had A LOT more time to pay more attention to the game, I was a much better player. Back then, I deserved more karma then I had. Now though, I think I've been half assing the last few years. Regardless though, I've played a complicated role. Totally hated the 'complicated' part of it. Then when the guy deaded, I sent in a karma review request. Upon rereading it just now. I swear to god, it read more like a freaking kudos, then a denial. I found their findings to be relatively spot on, except maybe too polite.


Your Karma Review request has been resolved.

We've discussed your current karma level and feel that we're comfortable with the level that it is on right now. Most Players of ArmageddonMUD cap out from 4-6 karma -- And this isn't to say that you don't have the potential of moving up the chain.

I personally watched [name] over a long period of time, and he had what I call 'Power-itis'. Psions, Sorcs, even Magickers are so difficult to play properly. I think combined with the fact that Psion skills are so difficult to train, and the fact that we as Staff are alerted to every instance of practicing on NPCs, it can lead to a really jilted view of a Player. I had my own Psions get nasty notes about practicing on Gith or other NPCs repeatedly, when really, i was just trying to play the character properly, and didn't understand where all the negative attention came from. For how powerful a Psion might be in social warfare, they aren't really anything compared to a max'd out Ranger or Warrior when it comes to violent harm, and we have few alerts/warnings about those PCs. So I wouldn't want you to think that us reaching out to you with the Psion Documentation at one point, or giving you notes/feedback on your play of a Psion, make it seem like your play of [name] was bad. On the contrary, when I actually monitored [name] up close, I was impressed with the versatility and range of emotion he was capable of, especially when manipulating others. I think he was a good beginning to a great character, that was cut short by the inevitable outing.

Another thing I noticed, though, was how easily he fell into a <a bunch of IC events and things that happened that's too early to mention] This doesn't really play to documentation of the game very well...It's meta-gamey at best. I've also played the Psion on the run, and it can be incredibly dull, but it doesn't mean the Psion's character, paranoia, or fear of others discovering their abilities should suddenly disappear.

You're a good Roleplayer, and I think when you apply yourself, you are capable of great things. I have high hopes that you will move your way up the chain eventually. I would just recommend perhaps avoiding the meta game, the coded skills, and the "power" there as a means to ultimately express your PC. When you don't rely on these crutches, you truly shine.

Eurynomos
Administrator
Armageddon Staff

[Pale Horse]

On the backstab situation, I can recall a time where Staff was discouraging of the use of backstab in anything other than combat situations with another humanoid.  The justification at the time was that "backstab" was to be used as a strike at someone's back, period.  It was designed as a lethal strike to the back and was described as a lethal strike to the back and it would not be accepted as anything but that.

Later, new Staff, and they thought it was fine to use backstab as a "critical strike" mechanic and to be used on animals.

New Staff again and it's switched, only this time because the Staffer in charger of the clan I was in wasn't sure what the official policy was and requested that those in the clan not use it as a "critical strike" until clarification was had.

Really, I just rolled with it.

[Inks]

I've always been afraid to even try to train backstab because I'm not sure what's acceptable. Stories like this don't help.

Unless they changed it, backstab is very powerful when it's trained up.  I remember a clan mate being killed by being backstabbed in a sparring match, with a sparring weapon.

There is no chill with backstabbing, it seems it's always I'M MURDERING YOU! There is no practice.

You can't backstab with any sparring weapons due to them being piercing not stabbing, please bug it if you find any.

Backstabbing not to kill is a scrub move though. If you are backstabbing you are trying to fatally injure them, whatever you emote. This is kind of going off topic, sorry.

[RogueGunslinger]

Backstab
(Melee Combat)
This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an opponent. The victim of a backstab is not necessarily 'stabbed in the back'-- the attack could be from any direction. If your character successfully backstabs someone, the target has been 'hit in a vital location,' and will be badly injured, the severity of the injury depending on your character's backstab skill level.

Syntax:
backstab (target)
Example(s):
> backstab raider
Notes:
It is possible, though difficult, to backstab fighting victims. You must always use a 'stabbing' weapon, which is a subset of the 'piercing' category. Backstab is an excellent method of attack if one's presence ought to be unnoticed by soldiers of city-states. (Of course, any ensuing fight can attract attention.) Your character does not necessarily need to be hidden for him/her to attempt a backstab.
Delay: before

[little chicken woman]

I think that I wouldn't really use more than three karma. I've got one, which is enough for two magickers anytime I want, which is good enough for me because I luvs them.

[valeria]

I'm just.... going to go ahead and point out that communication, which is a karma category, probably includes use of the GDB.  Since we use it to communicate and things.

Meanwhile:

I've had staff jump down from the sky at me, in the guise of a mob that had no business being where they were, to yell at me about an OOC thing I had no idea was against the rules because they were citing rules from an area of the GDB I had no access to.  Confusion was had by all, and I was told to follow up in a request.  Did.  A different staffer answered the request with no idea what had gone on.  I argued with staff about it over the request tool (polite but firm) until they realized that I actually had no idea what they were talking about... and still went on to get karma point 8.  Staff are people.  They do sometimes make mistakes.  Hell, I've even had them apologize to me, just like people should when they realize they're wrong.  An apology when you're wrong (and we all get shit wrong) goes a long way.

And you're more likely to get that when you're the one extending the hand first.

Lawyers are pretty universally regarded as combative assholes, but the vast majority of ones I know are scrupulously polite to each other.  Everyone knows who the one or two assholes in each practice area are, and everyone feels bad for the people they represent, because no one wants to deal with assholes and therefore the other lawyers stonewall, close in, close up, and don't offer good settlement deals.  The combative ones have to work twice as hard for half as much.

It's really not about what you say, guys, a lot of it is about how you say it. 

[SuchDragonWow]

I find it amusing that someone working in the legal system is part of the Armageddon 1%.  It is, somehow, apropos.

[Asmoth]

I can't copy and paste the whole requests due to ic shit in them about more than just me. I personally have never cared if people know who my characters are, but I've hear that there is some type of rule against saying who you play?

Anyways, I literally looked at the karma help file and listed three points I know I've hit that are in there and why I think I did, shit I wrote a book of a request with reasons why I was asking and thought I deserved it.  My response was the one about gdb and some of shit, which while I feel is a cop out to say the least it was respectful, I don't need to agree with it or it to be in my favor to find it a decent answer.


Then as I said I just asked about why I had never gotten a single rp karma, were they not watching? Was I doing something wrong?

And this producer goes apeshit.  That is not ok, and I feel I deserve an apology.  I purposely word and try to explain things to come off as opinionated but not horribly judgemental or cruel and I feel honestly that I have been forcing myself to have to "be nice" for lack of a better way to put it and yet we have one of the highest levels of staff being crass and rude because I asked a question.

In one way I'm pissed because of how they talk to me while spouting that we need to be respectful and such. On the other hand I am relieved because it just goes to show that the system isn't unbiased or even remotely fair, because if there was any basis on fact the producer would have just answered my question instead of hurled insults.

I recently had another staffer open up a request and say, why did you do X? I explained it and eventually it was closed by the staffer saying thanks for explaining and all was fine.  So I know not all of them are like this one producer, unfortunately. It appears producers are beyond reproach.

Back to Dota.... Have a good night folks.

[Jihelu]

That was an adventure of emotion

[Harmless]

but it does make it harder for off peaks and people with inconsistent play to be rated properly.

+1

[Asmoth]

That was an adventure of emotion

Oh I'll readily admit I'm a mix of pissed, disappointed and somehow shocked (even though I guess j shouldn't be by now) that they would go all crazy over me asking clarification on a request.