Keep the old <mage> class options?

[Kryos]

I am excluding modifying the magic sub guilds as an option intentionally, due to a lack of information.  But would you be happier if the old mage guilds were put back in, too?  Some breadth of options here, I hope.

edit:  serious typo magnet Kryos.

[Bogre]

Posting again:

Bogre's proposed karma fix: '

Karma 1 - Desert elf
Karma 2 - Vivaduan elementalist, Ruk elementalist, Viv-touched, Ruk-touched
Karma 3 - HG, Krath-touched, Whira-touched, Drov-touched, Ruk-Aspects, Viv-Aspects
Karma 4 - Drov elementalist, Krath elementalist, Whira elementalist,  Krath-guile, Whira-tempest, Drov aspect
Karma 5 - Krath-agony, Whira-travel, Drov aspect, Nilaz-touched
Karma 6 - Nilaz elementalist,
Karma 7 - Mul, Nilaz aspects
Karma 8 - Sorc subs/Psion

Special app: * Full sorcerors

Then allow karma guild + karma subguild.

How many options is that to define a character? A ton. Does it allow you to play a buffed wreck ranger? Yes - but you might have to special app it or have enough karma to be trusted with it. And you still might be outclassed by a full, true elementalist.

[Kryos]

Posting again:

Bogre's proposed karma fix: '

Karma 1 - Desert elf
Karma 2 - Vivaduan elementalist, Ruk elementalist, Viv-touched, Ruk-touched
Karma 3 - HG, Krath-touched, Whira-touched, Drov-touched, Ruk-Aspects, Viv-Aspects
Karma 4 - Drov elementalist, Krath elementalist, Whira elementalist,  Krath-guile, Whira-tempest, Drov aspect
Karma 5 - Krath-agony, Whira-travel, Drov aspect, Nilaz-touched
Karma 6 - Nilaz elementalist,
Karma 7 - Mul, Nilaz aspects
Karma 8 - Sorc subs/Psion

Special app: * Full sorcerors

Then allow karma guild + karma subguild.

How many options is that to define a character? A ton. Does it allow you to play a buffed wreck ranger? Yes - but you might have to special app it or have enough karma to be trusted with it. And you still might be outclassed by a full, true elementalist.

Mikey likes it!

[Vwest]

I went with other.

I foresee this having some serious negative consequences and I don't believe this is going to have any beneficial impact for anyone who isn't already rocking the karma necessary to benefit from the changes. Everyone else is going to have to make due with what we've got.

That said, it's over and done. By over and done, I mean we aren't getting the old guilds back. If you don't see the writing on the wall, you must be new here.

If they put the time in to make the changes, the least I can do is see what comes of it.

[Kryos]

Thanks for the explanation.

One of you others though, is being naughty.  What's your take?

[Beethoven]

I have so much to say. I already said most of it to staff but I'll paraphrase a little of the wall of text I sent them.

I would be fine with seeing full elementalists be spec app only. These would be people with a special attunement, talent, or enthusiasm to study their element. I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek when I used the phrase "magickal savant" on the other thread, but that'd be a good way to describe full elementalists in the context of these changes. It's no wonder that they aren't that good at other things--their focus or skill lies elsewhere, and they are astonishingly adept at one thing. There are a lot of people like this IRL.

So, sure, make them special app only if you want, but don't take them away altogether. Their existence, no matter how rare, will make it even LESS certain what a magicker's spell set is. After people get familiar with the new subguilds, you still won't be able to go, "Oh, that's definitely an Empowerment Rukkian." It COULD be a Rukkian with the full spell tree.

Beyond this, as someone who played a sponsored role for quite a while, I very much realize that Drovians can be plot-killers and that they needed some fixing, but I don't like seeing them go away altogether. In my opinion, they brought much more to the game than their spying abilities alone.

Losing Nilazi felt like a punch in the gut.

P.S. I voted "yes."

[Hicksville Hoochie]

I went with other.

Until I see the entire guild revamp in action, and what it brings to the game, I can't make a logical decision on if the changes to magick guilds are great or not.

[Dresan]

No, I prefer these changes.

I'm glad the old mages are gone, and am very happy to see these magickal sub-guild replacement.

Also I want to see the new change in documentation, if any. This makes mages infinitely more interesting from an RP point of view because they are finally people with magickal abilities, not magickal being trying to be human.

And I still think they are very pretty powerful from an coded and RP point of view too, sure maybe not the beast a warrior with stealth is but still amazing in their own right.

[Erythil]

At the moment, I would prefer to see subguild mages and old mages exist side by side, even if that meant making old mages somewhat more expensive.

[Lizzie]

I don't want to play an aspect of a mage. When I play a mage, then magicks are a big part of what drives them. They are still a "full person" because they can still do plenty of other things (especially if I pick an extended subguild). For every subguild, there is a primary guild to replace it. Except for magicks. That's why this is a nerf. It doesn't feel like one, it is one.

If we got rid of main guilds entirely, and were able to select a total of four subguilds (including extended subs if you have the karma or special app), I'd be okay with that.

If we restored main-guild mages and made them karma restricted AND special app only, I'd be okay with that. If the staff made magick guilds a different type of restriction, that could only be unlocked if you achieved the karma options AND did something else (like submit a fully fleshed out family history of our proposed mage character including anything that might lead them to become mages), I'd be okay with that.

I'd be okay with adjusting the existing (or formerly existing) spell lists and method of branching/improving to more easily address the polar opposite perceptions: that it's too easy to branch, and that even fully branched mages can easily get one-shot killed by a 1-day Byn Runner.

So I picked other because I accept that changes need to be made. I just don't accept that these are the most logical, playable, and fun necessary changes.

[valeria]

Basically Beethoven said what I would said--if they were kept (and I don't really care one way or the other on it), I'd like to see them be spec-app only, to account for how rare I personally feel they should be.

[little chicken woman]

I think having full and subguild mages together would do the best--- most mages would know a handful of general spells (touched) or specialize in a particular field (others.) A few would not have been hunters or mercenaries or merchant for a living (or would have left those behind long ago) but would have dedicated themselves to it, and their limited skillset would show it.

In other words, I think it would be cool if magick in general were considered difficult to learn new aspects of or master by retrospective canon.

[Chettaman]

Like valeria, I enjoy the ideal of being so within an element that a person is literally the embodiment of the element being a rare thing.
Before roleplaying a witch was always really sketchy and whenever I asked questions no one really answered them. (no offense to anyone) They would respond with, "It's up to you. Just don't go over board." and then when I explained the things I did they would respond with, "But don't do that. That's over board." The ideal of ... too much. What is too much when you're literally doing "impossible" things? I need these things spelled out for me!
hm... I guess nothing's really changed on that.

anyway, what I'm saying is - some people roleplay that being an elementalist is all feeling and intuition and sometimes they don't even roleplay using the words. ... which is, I guess, okay from everyone's view.
While some other people roleplay using the words as the only way to use their elemental power.
While others combine both of these styles to use their magick.
... hm. And I guess this hasn't really changed either. Dammit. What the hell was my point?

um. Displaying only one aspect of a time would allow these people to exist without any sketch, because it becomes a part of their mundane life... Or it should. They can do now, all the things normal people can do ... and then some. But it's still pretty damn easy to be killed. One good trap. One little slip up. One bahamet that attacks twice in one round. Done. Anyone with karma enough to play a role like that well "deserves" it, I think.

but. Removing the choice to roleplay a certain way instead of just making it harder to get to did irk me. I can understand sorcerers sort of... just because so few people would be able to actually play them. But rukkian and vivaduan were two karma. It was still tough to get to two karma, but more possible. I would also like to see the old sorcerer returned as well. I didn't even know it was taken away completely! I thought there were just new sub guilds for it.
Ha. I thought it was cool, the idea of a grand master sorcerer teaching his sorcerer students who were only good at certain "aspects" of their power.

[Jihelu]

Subguild mages are good for their utility but they completely tell 'full' elementailsts to go fuck them selves.
What do you mean you were an elementalist completely devoted to your character? No you weren't. You were an assassin or pickpocket and you'll never have the coded backing to say otherwise.
What do you mean you wanted to completely learn sorcerery? No, you were a ranger or warrior that wanted a few spells for some reason.


I like the utility but I dislike the lack of full magic.
When you show up to D&D you don't sign up to be a spell blade with five spells you show up to be a full sorcerer or some shit.

[Nergal]

This poll has been helpful and we look forward to gathering additional feedback once the change has had time to settle, and additional parts of the guild revamp go live.

[Narf]

I'd like full mages to be available, but I'd remove their access to extended subguilds. I'd leave those as kind of bennies to attract people to fully mundane options.

[Majikal]

I don't see the downside to having the full mage options be available for the fire/water/earth/wind.

I personally prefer true mages that are masters of their magick, it's entertaining and flavorful. The subs don't offer that. I can't think of a reason to nix the full guilds. About the only downside I see is having to watch and make sure someone doesn't pick vivaduan/krathi -beguiler or some weird combo like that.

[valeria]

The more I think on it, the more I'm not convinced that playing a "full" mage is forever off the table. The coded guilds haven't been removed. I suspect if someone wanted to spec app one later (much later, after the legacy mages are mostly gone), it would receive the same treatment as any other spec app.

[Delirium]

I think they just haven't been removed so that older PCs can be grandfathered in (which I'm sure they very much appreciate).

Could be wrong. We will just have to wait and see.

[Jihelu]

The more I think on it, the more I'm not convinced that playing a "full" mage is forever off the table. The coded guilds haven't been removed. I suspect if someone wanted to spec app one later (much later, after the legacy mages are mostly gone), it would receive the same treatment as any other spec app.

Wouldn't this just be the same thing as full sorcerers?
You can't spec app those.

[lostinspace]

From the F.A.Q.
Can I use a special application to play a 'main guild' elementalist - including drovians/elkrosians/nilazi?
No. You currently cannot play a character with a magickal guild.


As of now I believe this is still the staffs stance on special apps for magickal guilds. I personally hope it changes and they just put them back without access to karma gated sub-guilds. I like the addition of sub-gicks, but I don't really understand staffs goal with the removal of the full elementals. I recognize however that I don't have a full picture of staffs plan with this change and those to come. A lot of my enjoyment from arm comes from it's sheer magnitude and all the things to discover. I like scouring the wilds and finding the hard to find places poisons and peppers grow, the hidden rooms people walk right by, and the intricacies of magickal and skill interactions. Of the seven guilds lost, the ones I haven't played yet hit me the hardest, because as of now I'll never get to experience them. I enjoy the RP on arm, and ultimately it's why I'm here regardless of the guilds I have access to.

[valeria]

The more I think on it, the more I'm not convinced that playing a "full" mage is forever off the table.

Emphasis added. I know what the current policy is.

Wouldn't this just be the same thing as full sorcerers?
You can't spec app those.

Not exactly the same, because they were entirely removed.

[Beethoven]

It does say "currently," which is one reason I don't think staff are burning bridges. I'm encouraged about how they haven't really taken a hardline stance on anything. It seems they're seeing how things go, just like we are.

[Zoltan]

I voted "yes", but a very soft yes. Despite the fact that Elkrans and Nilazi were my two favorite magick guilds to play, I think that overall this will be a very positive change and I'm very eager to see what the staff has in mind for the mundane guilds.

This change has already been discussed to death so I won't add any more speculation. I'm content to wait and see how it goes.

It would be nice if the full mage guilds were still available for the remaining elements, just to have even more options. Still, having the spell combinations spread out and less predictable is exciting to me.